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Jesus' Return.....in the Air ....on the Mountain

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by quietthinker, Aug 8, 2021.

  1. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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  2. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    What does the “the prince of the power of the air”, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience in Ephesians 2:2 mean then? The prince of the power of the air meaning “not on the ground”?
     
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  3. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    2 Thessalonians 2:1 is concerning THE COMING OF OUR LORD and our being gathered together to be with Him.

    That COMING of the Lord unequivocally has to be the second coming, because pre-tribbers say the rapture doesn’t count as Him COMING again, because He never lands on the earth at that time.

    But Paul said it’s at HIS COMING that we are gathered together to be with Him.

    I’m going with Paul over the pre-trib consensus, every time.

    The consensus understanding on anything and everything, is frequently wrong.

    Maranatha

    BTW, Matthew 24, Luke 18, and Mark 13 all say the abomination of desolation/son of perdition event happens, and then a rapture follows that.

    So tell me, consensus guy, what mid-trib rapture is the one in 3 of the 4 gospels?

    Shalom Aleichem
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
  4. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    Of course the first resurrection is for the saints....that goes without saying as the scripture is abundantly clear on that but assuming that 'in the Air' means secret as in only those involved see it is absurd. Jesus tells us that 'every eye will see him and all the tribes of the earth will mourn' This is not done in secret; why should it be?? it is the culmination of the believers hope.

    There is also much to say about judgement here. The verdict of the wicked has already been determined otherwise they would not be where they are but thats another subject.
     
  5. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    I would like to add, Peter tells us the wicked will be destroyed by the brightness of his coming.....the very coming the saints have looked forward to for millennia.

    I suppose that puts a spanner in the works of the wicked hanging around for another seven years.
     
  6. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    Your response is clearly a distraction from presented truth
     
  7. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    Edit...the visible coming of Jesus in the clouds and the saints rising up to meet him is also their public vindication.
     
  8. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    How is a question about warfare in relation “to battle” a distraction? Truly I see you have some excellent points like “then the end comes” and others you have shared. I’m not saying or trying to prove he is not bound nor am I trying to argue the thousand year reign is not already. These are things I have many questions and misunderstandings on. Warning this is several long passages but hoping you be patient with me. You said the devil is bound for one thing only right now and that is to deceive to battle. 1) was the question concerning putting on the whole armour of God. Which for me blows apart God is going to whisk His church out so they are not present “that evil day”; instead God says to put on the whole armour that they be able to withstand and having done all to stand.

    2) you said the devil is bound at present for one purpose only “to the day of battle” but
    Revelation 6:9-11 (Imo) gives a reason as to why the devil is loosed for a little season.
    ‘And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (what testimony do they hold?) 10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, (the devil loosed for a little season)until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, (for the testimony which they hold) should be fulfilled.

    You said the devil is bound: to deceive to battle, that sin is not bound but only “to battle” (have I misunderstood?) yet consider is “sin” not the battle which deceives to war and persecution to kill and destroy those which hold the testimony of Jesus Christ? Even going as far as saying they hold the truth in unrighteousness. Romans 7:9-13 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

    In the above what was the testimony Paul held? Acts 22:18-20 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me. [19] And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: [20] And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

    Revelation 16:5-7 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. [6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. [7] And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

    3) you said the devil is bound to deceiving to battle but that implies the devil is bound against “rest for a little season season while your brethren is slain as you were for the word of God, and for the testimony which they hold” is not yet? Revelation 12:10-17 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. [11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. [12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but (a little season)a short time. [13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. [14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. [15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. [16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have (went to make war for the testimony which they hold) the testimony of Jesus Christ.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  9. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Front and center stance is the rapture then. It is not those who reject Christ but should be changed to those who reject and believe not in the rapture as proposed? I say this because I grew up as a young child hearing one thing and one thing about God only. How He was coming to rapture His church out before the great tribulation. I believed whole heartedly in the rapture since it was something every one around me had said would happen from a child. I remember predictions of the day proposed the rapture might take place and I would have been early twenties. As a child I was so certain and convinced I would not live past my twenties because the church was going to be secretly raptured out around that time predicted. It is near they would shout at the Baptist church we occasionally attended. When I had children we would watch Jack Van Impe and Rexella and told our children the same thing. The rapture will be soon! Thing is, while I believed in the rapture …I had absolutely no relationship with God. He wasn’t even on my radar. I could have cared less about the Word of God and was annoyed when anyone changed the focus from the rapture to God and His Word. I just wasn’t interested in God but …I was interested in the rapture and the great destruction that would come upon the world …for I would surely be going with the one I spit on and had no interest in ever knowing. Fables.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  10. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Significant to the topic of “the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming” …isn’t that the topic here “at His coming”? For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? (See no one takes your crown, the Lord will give you whatever you ask for in His name that your joy may be made full). Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? [20] For ye are our glory and joy. (At his coming) 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    2 Thessalonians 1:8-12 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? [20] For ye are our glory and joy.

    [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. [11] Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: [12] That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Revelation 12:12-17 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. [13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. [14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. [15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. [16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    1 Thessalonians 2:14-20 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: [15] Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: [16] Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. [17] But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire. [18] Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
    [19] For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? [20] For ye are our glory and joy.

    But satan hindered us…Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. [17] But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, …
    For we endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire. (Proverbs 13:12-13) (Psalm 37:4) [18] Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again…but satan hindered us because you are our glory and joy and crown of rejoicing in the presence of Jesus Christ at His coming ‘That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.’
     
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  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    The prince of the power of the air is Satan, who controls the hierarchies of evil angels which occupy the earth's atmosphere ("the air"). When Satan and his evil angels were cast out of the third heaven (God's heaven) they were banished to the first heaven (the atmosphere). They are spirit beings, and that is their realm. However, they also control the kingdoms (and nations) of the world.

    This has nothing to do with Christ coming "in the air" for His saints. Jesus is sovereign over all evil spirits.
     
  12. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Quite true! The Bible never declares the rapture of those in Christ will be secret.

    Much love!
     
  13. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    So I can understand what you believe…do you believe “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago …such a one was caught up (raptured) to the third heaven (you said God’s heaven) in 2 Corinthians 12:1-3 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. [2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth… such an one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
     
  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    This is about Paul being caught up to Heaven. Not relevant to the discussion.
     
  15. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    how is it not relevant when the words “caught up” often come up pertaining to rapture?
     
  16. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    @VictoryinJesus It's the phrase used in 1 Thess. 4, right?
     
  17. ReChoired

    ReChoired Well-Known Member

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    People speak (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) of a 'secret rapture', when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    People speak (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) when they say that the 'taken' of Matthew 24; Luke 17 are the 'saved at the rapture', and that those who 'remain' are the 'lost', or 'those who have to go through tribulation to possibly be saved', when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    People speak (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) of Revelation's 4:1, "Come up hither" that it is speaking about 'all the saints in the rapture being caught up, and that the rest of the events spoken beyond that are for the Jews', when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    People speak (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) of a 'tribulation' of which the saints (God's people) will be 'delivered from having to go through', when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    People speak (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) of a '3rd Temple to be built in modern day Judaea on the Temple Mount', when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    People speak (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) of a separation between 'rapture' and 'Second Coming', when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    People speak (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) of a '1,000 year reign with Christ Jesus upon the earth', when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    People speak (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) of the saints 'reigning over the wicked' during the 1,000 years, or some portion of time after Jesus' return, when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    People speak (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) of 'amillennialism' (no thousand years, church reigns now), or 'allegorism' of 1,000 years, when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    People speak (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) of 'preterism' and/or 'futurism', when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    People speak (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) of 'Jesus reigning invisibly since 1914, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords', when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    People speak (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) of 'only the 144,000' going to Heaven, as an 'heavenly class', while everyone else who is 'saved' remains on earth during 1,000 years, when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    People (ignorantly; ie without knowledge) that the 144,000 are 'only physical Jews who become 'saved' to preach the gospel at the end, during a period of 'tribulation'', when the Bible makes no mention of such an occurrence.

    If any seem to disagree, let's take a single point at a time, and look at it, closely, prayerfully, intelligently, studiously, piously.
     
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  18. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    yes. 2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven.

    And 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    I’m not good with concordances. Both:
    Strong's Greek: 726. ἁρπάζω (harpazó) -- to seize, catch up, snatch away
    If I understand correctly…being where the word rapture “harpazo” comes from? Like I mentioned above…i never knew where it came from only that I was told of the rapture as a child.

    Same in Jude 1:23 (726) And others save with fear, pulling (to snatch or pluck) them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
    Zechariah 3:2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
     
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  19. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Zechariah 3:2 is different though:
    5337. natsal to strip, plunder, deliver oneself, be delivered, snatch away, deliver, to snatch away, at all, defend, deliver self, escape, without fail, part, pluck,

    A primitive root; to snatch away, whether in a good or a bad sense:- defend, deliver (self), escape, without fail, part, pluck, preserve, recover, rescue, rid, save, spoil, strip, surely, take (out).

    where is @Ziggy? Or @charity? Their studies are so helpful.
     
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  20. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Yes the Apostles witnessed the coming of Christ over and over in each born of God believer whom received the gospel they’d presented.
    Amen!!!
     
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