1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Jesus says look for these Signs to know when My Return is Near.

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by GISMYS_7, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,883
    Likes Received:
    1,699
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    So? They have not yet been saved at the time of the rapture.

    Stranger
     
  2. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Active Member

    Messages:
    706
    Likes Received:
    204
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Read Revelation and do some research on the Millennial kingdom Jesus rules with the returned raptured believers!
     
  3. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Active Member

    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    160
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    It would seem that you have been told that this is so but you do not know the scriptures to back up your adopted opinion and your expressed claims that "on the Millennial Kingdom Jesus rules with the returned raptured believers."

    It is your claim that I am asking for you to provide the scriptural confirmation. If you cannot or will not provide that scriptural confirmation, or any one else who agrees with this adopted opinion, then I can only assume that I can ignore your claim(s) as being a furphy and take no heed of them.

    In Revelation, it speaks of the saints {Please note that there is no mention of these saints being raptured.}, who enter the Millennium Age will have a priestly role over the nations and people groups in line with Christ's priestly role during the Millennium Age. A humble servant's role. Not the arrogant kingly role I seem to be hearing in your posts. If what I am hearing, is true, the arrogance expressed in your above posts in your anticipation of being raptured soon, would, in my understanding of scripture, deny you any hope of being raptured when it will occur.

    Now if your opinion on being raptured and then returning to rule with Christ is true as you claim, then it behoves you to provide the proof without palming it off to others who may come to a very different conclusion/understanding of these same scriptures in Revelation, contrary to what you are claiming.

    If it is true what you are claiming, then it should be very simple for you to provide the proof. If you will not provide that proof, then I and others can only assume that the claimed proof in Revelations does not exist.

    The ball is really in your court to prove your case, not mine as you have suggested above.
     
  4. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Active Member

    Messages:
    706
    Likes Received:
    204
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    JUDE 14_15 Jesus returns with the "raptured" saints.
    2 Timothy 2:12 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
    “I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God…. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years…. This is the first resurrection” (Revelation 20:4–5). So, these saints join the others who will reign with Christ in the kingdom.
     
  5. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,451
    Likes Received:
    8,870
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    The Kingdom is ALWAYS at hand... @GISMYS_7 ..you have taken your eyes away from the "Kingdom now" and have you focus on some "event"
    You have substituted a moment by moment relationship with the Lord now for some "future event".
    The way that you thread after thread go on and on about this one subject obsession of yours.. ...is a dangerous very sign that you have built yourself a IDOL...anything which take the place of Jesus in our life..today, now, is an idol.

    You talk more about "the rapture" than anything else! It has become your god, obsession, idol, worship, focus.....

    Praying for you.
     
  6. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Active Member

    Messages:
    706
    Likes Received:
    204
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes!! There is NO greater event in the life of believers dead or alive than the ""very near""Rapture (catching up of all believers dead and alive and given new immortal bodies and then return to heaven with Jesus. Will you be left behind?? Come quickly Lord Jesus!!
     
  7. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,451
    Likes Received:
    8,870
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Wow...you are totally DECEIVED by the enemy...because what I made read, that you wrote..is a lie from the Pit.
    So this "event" has become to you the "greatest thing" !!!

    You dwell in a little world of you own, and lost the focus of what The Good News is really all about.
    If this one Event was "the most important thing in our life" THE BIBLE WOULD SAY AS MUCH... and it does not. It is one of the least subjects spoken about in the bible...

    Again, YOU have made it an IDOL...
     
  8. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

    Messages:
    525
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Because of the inaccuracy of many Bibles, such as the King James Bible, as at Matthew 24, those who read them are naturally misled. At Matthew 24:3, the King James Bible reads: "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be ?(of the temple in Jerusalem being destroyed) and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world ?"

    Did Jesus disciples say "what will be the sign of thy coming ?" No. Let's look more accurately at what Jesus disciples said. They asked: "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things ?"

    Jesus disciples were asking Jesus regarding his invisible "presence", not "coming", for they used the Greek word parousia meaning "to be beside" and not the Greek word erchomai meaning "coming" that Jesus used at Matthew 24:30, in which he said that "they (nations of the earth) shall see the Son of man coming (Greek erchomai) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".

    At Matthew 24:37-39, Jesus parallels his invisible "presence" with the "days of Noah" that lasted some 120 years (Gen 6:3), saying: "For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence (Greek parousia) of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence (Greek parousia) of the Son of man will be".

    The apostle Paul further identifies Jesus invisible "presence" as extending to the end of Jesus "thousand year" reign at which point Jesus "hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power".(1 Cor 15:23, 24)

    So Jesus invisible "presence", unseen by the world, but discerned by Jesus genuine disciples because of the "sign of his presence", identifying features that would pin-point the time period. He said: "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress".(Matt 24:7, 8)

    Hence, the beginning of Jesus invisible "presence" would be see warfare, food shortages and earthquakes, pointing to the fact that it would cover an extended period of time, like the "beginning of pangs of distress" that a woman feels many weeks in advance of her giving birth, not a moment in time as "coming" or sudden arrival means.

    At Revelation 6, this "beginning" of Jesus invisible "presence" is laid out (that was the unveiling of the scroll "sealed tight with seven seals"[Rev 5:1], saying: "I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder: "Come !" And I saw, and look ! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest".(Rev 6:1, 2)

    Who is the ' rider on the white horse ' ? Revelation 19 identifies him as Jesus Christ.(Rev 19:11-16) Thus, when Jesus was crowned king of God's Kingdom (or the Messianic Kingdom), he immediately went out "conquering" when he battled "the dragon" Satan and his demons and forcibly cast them down to the earth, bringing great woes on the earth.(Rev 12:7-12)

    But when did Jesus receive his crown that also began his invisible "presence" ? Revelation 6:3, 4 gives us the time, saying: "When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: "Come ! " Another (rider) came out, a fiery-colored horse, and it was granted to the one seated on it to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another, and he was given a great sword".

    When was ' peace taken away from the earth ' for the first time in human history ? With the outbreak of World War I on July 28, 1914, so that by the end of the war, some 93 percent of earth's population was involved. For a certainty, peace had been taken away from the earth on a global scale.

    Revelation 6:5, 6 now says: "When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature (or angel) say: "Come ! " And I saw, and look ! a (rider on a ) black horse, and the one seated on it had a pair of scales (that carefully weighed out small quantities of food). I heard what sounded like a voice in the midst of four living creatures say: "A quart of wheat for a denarius (or a whole day's pay in the 1st century) and three quarts of barley (seen as inferior to wheat) for a denarius; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine (commodities now considered as luxuries that few could afford)".

    Now food shortages (or famine) were occurring due to the destructive effects of war on the lands where the war was fought and displacement of hundreds of thousands of individuals. How far would 1 quart of wheat or 3 quarts of barley go for a large family ? And how would anyone pay all the other bills since all of the money is used up on just food ?

    At Revelation 6:7, 8, it says: "When he opened the fourth seal, I heard a voice of the fourth living creature say: "Come ! " And I saw, and look ! a (rider on a) pale horse, and the one seated on it had the name Death. And the Grave was closely following him. And authority was given them (Death and the Grave) over the fourth of the earth (large swath), to kill with a long sword (warfare) and with food shortage (famine) and with deadly plague (deadly diseases) and by the wild beasts (political governments or systems that have murdered many people) of the earth".

    About 70 million people died from famines during the 20th century. One authority estimated that "805 million people - about one in nine of the world's population - were chronically undernourished in 2012-14". Another report states: "Hunger kills more people every year than AIDS, malaria, and tuberculosis combined" and that "25,000 people, both adults and children, die every day from hunger and related causes" and "one in seven people goes to bed hungry each night".(United Nations World Food Programme, June 4, 2009)

    And then there is "deadly plague", or diseases and illness that causes death. One such one was the Spanish Flu, that over the course of 1918-20, took the lives of an estimated 50 to 100 million people, several more times the number of the estimated 13 million that lost their lives from World War I. Death and the Grave have no end to its number of victims.

    The "riders of the four horsemen" continues on, but only for a short time longer. (Jesus ride as king of God's Kingdom will continue on until he turns the Kingdom over to God, at which time he will have conquered the "last enemy, (Adamic) death", 1 Cor 15:24-26)
     
  9. pompadour

    pompadour Active Member Encounter Team

    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The two witnesses, as I remember show up 5 days before the anti-Christ is reveled. the anti-Christ can't be reviled until the restrainer is removed. Pomp.
     
  10. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,131
    Likes Received:
    100
    Christ returns with those who have died in Him,not some people that were raptured

    I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep(died) in Jesus will God bring with him."

    Where do we see those who were raptured?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    Davy likes this.
  11. Davy

    Davy Active Member

    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    102
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hello folks. Well, I thought the OP was going to stick to what they actually quoted from Jesus in Matthew 24 about the signs of the end, but then later they turned to a doctrine of man called the pre-trib rapture theory which believes Christ secretly comes to gather the Church before most of those signs take place!

    How can one believe they are going to get raptured before all those signs have completed when the very last sign Jesus gave there is the one of His coming to gather the saints?

    Then reading more on this thread, there are those who believe those signs are already history, and are trying to live like Jesus' Kingdom is already here on earth, even though Scripture declares His literal presence will be here when that happens. That's just more confusion, since the second coming of Jesus Christ has still yet to happen. So that's more doctrines of men being presented, swung to the extreme on the other side.

    Understanding in God's Word is not supposed to be like a battle between Democrats and Republicans. It isn't politics.
     
  12. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,451
    Likes Received:
    8,870
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    @Davy

    Hello, Welcome to the Site.
     
  13. Davy

    Davy Active Member

    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    102
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi! Thank you!
    Blessings to you!
     
    "ByGrace" likes this.
  14. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    450
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Here's a question....the doctrine of "imminency" is fairly important to the Pre-trib Rapture argument, I believe, which states that nothing must happen before the Rapture...it's next on the timeline. But...it seems to me that all the years that the Nation of Israel had not 'reformed', then that would have needed to happen first. So...all those years, nearly 2000, the Rapture could not have been imminent. So, for all the Christians reading the bible for those years, the doctrine of Imminency would have been untrue. Is this a fatal flaw in this doctrine, or does it actually prove it could have only fit a time when it "could have" come true?
     
    n2thelight likes this.
  15. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,808
    Likes Received:
    2,037
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    And we HAVE been for years..... as has most every other country been for not only centuries, but for thousands of years.
     
    pia and bbyrd009 like this.
  16. Davy

    Davy Active Member

    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    102
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Imminency is an idea that is built off of man's idea that Jesus could come at "any moment". Thus another name for the pre-trib rapture is the 'Any Moment' doctrine. The whole idea is based upon Jesus saying no man knows the day or hour of His coming.

    But Jesus commanded us to 'watch', and He used the idea of the watchman of the OT, with the various night watches (Matt.24:42-51)). He also used the idea of a thief breaking in, and that if the goodman of the house would watch, he would not allow his house to be broken up. This idea He gave in conjunction with the seven main signs of the end of this world in His Olivet Discourse.

    What then does this reveal?

    It reveals that even though no man knows the day nor hour of His coming, we still are to be watching the signs He gave leading up to the day of His coming. And He commanded us to be doing that, and even to be found doing that when He does appear (Matt.24:42-47).

    In contrast the pre-trib rapture theory treats Christ's revealing that no man knows the day or hour of His coming to mean it is impossible to know when He comes, so it's impossible to be watching for His coming. Instead they turn our Lord's command to watch into just a command to be 'ready' and that's all. By that they deny His command to be a watchman involving the signs of the end He and His Apostles gave His Church.

    Look at the signs Apostle Paul gave for the order of events for Christ's coming in 2 Thessalonians 2. Paul said there two events must occur first, prior to Christ's coming and gathering of the Church. There must first be a great apostasy (falling away), and the man of sin (the Antichrist) must be revealed. Holding to imminency doctrines, it suggests to disregard those signs given by Paul, because if Christ's coming is based on imminency, then even Paul's signs aren't required to happen first.

    Thus the imminency doctrines actually turn much of God's Word about the end of this world upside down. And it should be very clear that one of the main purposes of the imminency doctrines of prep-trib is actually designed to prevent the believer from understanding and watching the events our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us to be watching leading up to His return, so we would not be... deceived; and this particularly when the coming Antichrist comes to set himself up as God working great signs and miracles that if possible, would even deceive Christ's very elect.
     
  17. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,131
    Likes Received:
    100
    They try and solve that by saying Matthew 24 and Mark 13 wasn't written to the Church,rather to the Jew's...
     
  18. Davy

    Davy Active Member

    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    102
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes, and they are also trying to move the "day of the Lord" event back in time to the start of the tribulation, and also saying it will last through the trib all the way to the end of this world. By that, they flat deny the meaning of 2 Peter 3:10. So the pre-trib rapture doctors are not necessarily interested in the Truth as written in Holy Writ, they are about forwarding a false agenda.

    But those kind of things must exist, as tests, to see who will truly listen to our Heavenly Father and His Son in His Word, or to something else outside His Word.
     
  19. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    450
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Hi Davy. While I'm not sure I buy the "Imminency" doctrine myself, I'm also not sure that people who do are therefore not watching leading up to his return. In contrast, it seems to me that the people who do hold this doctrine are by far those most intent on looking for their Saviors return. Of course...they believe they won't see the Antichrist. But we must believe, I think, from what scripture teaches, that regardless of who is right, that if one has true faith in Christ, the fact that we must go through the Tribulation or not, will not shake us from our Saviors hand. That would imply that the evil that we would see in the Tribulation would be greater than Jesus' work on the cross, or his strength and ability to hold onto us, wouldn't it? And that is wrong, and clearly not taught in scripture.
    So...I would propose that we can debate about the validity of 'Imminency' as a doctrine, but I do question if holding it or not would place people in danger of being truly deceived in the last days.
     
  20. pia

    pia Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,003
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Recently I have had thoughts about revelation, and knowing I had tried in my own self to make sense of it.....Now I can see that we read it as if it's not only in chronological order but that all the events in it happen within a relatively short space of time....
    What if it spans the entire two thousand years plus, which have gone by since His resurrection, and it's not just something happening in 3 1/2 or 7 years ?
    Makes for a different read....
     
Loading...