Jesus says look for these Signs to know when My Return is Near.

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Helen

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Recently I have had thoughts about revelation, and knowing I had tried in my own self to make sense of it.....Now I can see that we read it as if it's not only in chronological order but that all the events in it happen within a relatively short space of time....
What if it spans the entire two thousand years plus, which have gone by since His resurrection, and it's not just something happening in 3 1/2 or 7 years ?
Makes for a different read....

Well , when you get it all sorted let me know..I never have it all nailed down...some, not all. :)
I just know that the chapter 1-12 are one picture...and then it is all repeated with different 'pictures' and symbols from Chapter 13 - 22.
I have studied it a lot...and I have settled some things...
 
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pia

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and symbols from Chapter 13 - 22.
I have studied it a lot...and I have settled some things.
Have you ? i would truly love to hear what understanding you have received so far.....He has kept me busy with the other end of the Bible more, never once taking me through Revelation...
 

n2thelight

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So? They have not yet been saved at the time of the rapture.

Stranger

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Are those written in the book of life saved?
 

Naomi25

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Recently I have had thoughts about revelation, and knowing I had tried in my own self to make sense of it.....Now I can see that we read it as if it's not only in chronological order but that all the events in it happen within a relatively short space of time....
What if it spans the entire two thousand years plus, which have gone by since His resurrection, and it's not just something happening in 3 1/2 or 7 years ?
Makes for a different read....

Yes, this is, I believe, how the Amillennial view sees Revelations. And to be honest, that reading of Revelations makes the most sense to me, for many reasons. But I think legitimate questions still arise about signs in the very last days. In Luke 21:28 Jesus tells us that when we see certain signs we are to raise up our heads for Christ's return is near. Therefore we are to watch. For exact things? I don't know. Some would say we can know seasons if not hours.
I find myself in a place where I can see validity in each biblical perspective, and I'm not sure if that's a strength or a weakness on my part. But, as things stand in a very interesting place with Israel and Syria in regards to Russia/Iran/Turkey, etc, I'm finding value in watching and praying. I believe many people from the Dispensationalist point of view are saying that Damascus is probably going to be destroyed next, as the Isaiah 17 prophecy says. There can be no harm in watching to see how this unfolds, especially as it is only mans interpretation of scripture I'm vacillating upon, not God's word itself. One way or the other, God's word will be done, and Christ will return victorious!
 
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Davy

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Hi Davy. While I'm not sure I buy the "Imminency" doctrine myself, I'm also not sure that people who do are therefore not watching leading up to his return. In contrast, it seems to me that the people who do hold this doctrine are by far those most intent on looking for their Saviors return. Of course...they believe they won't see the Antichrist. But we must believe, I think, from what scripture teaches, that regardless of who is right, that if one has true faith in Christ, the fact that we must go through the Tribulation or not, will not shake us from our Saviors hand. That would imply that the evil that we would see in the Tribulation would be greater than Jesus' work on the cross, or his strength and ability to hold onto us, wouldn't it? And that is wrong, and clearly not taught in scripture.
So...I would propose that we can debate about the validity of 'Imminency' as a doctrine, but I do question if holding it or not would place people in danger of being truly deceived in the last days.

Anything that tries to draw us away from the Faith is a danger. And when our Lord Jesus Himself warned us of a specific danger to come, and His Apostles warned us also, that means to prepare ourselves for it and don't be deceived. Deception will be the main working at the very end with the coming Antichrist, not wars, not famines and earthquakes, etc. So when we encounter an idea or doctrine from men, and the Imminency doctrine is one of them (it's designed to support a false pre-trib rapture), because our Lord Jesus per His Word cannot and will not just come at any moment because of the signs He commanded us to watch, then we are to focus on what He said to do, and not what those men say to do. That is how it will boil down to being deceived in the end or not being deceived, dependence being upon who we listen to and heed.
 

Davy

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Recently I have had thoughts about revelation, and knowing I had tried in my own self to make sense of it.....Now I can see that we read it as if it's not only in chronological order but that all the events in it happen within a relatively short space of time....
What if it spans the entire two thousand years plus, which have gone by since His resurrection, and it's not just something happening in 3 1/2 or 7 years ?
Makes for a different read....

Study in all... of God's Word will show you the difference of why Revelation is not for that two thousand years plus period. Did you know there's a section of chapters in the OT prophet of Isaiah that Bible scholars have called the Apocalypse of Isaiah? There's quite a bit of parallel to Revelation written in the OT prophets. Apostle Peter said we are to be mindful of those.
 

Davy

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Recently I have had thoughts about revelation, and knowing I had tried in my own self to make sense of it.....Now I can see that we read it as if it's not only in chronological order but that all the events in it happen within a relatively short space of time....
What if it spans the entire two thousand years plus, which have gone by since His resurrection, and it's not just something happening in 3 1/2 or 7 years ?
Makes for a different read....

I don't know if this helps or not, but if you study our Lord's Olivet Discourse in Matt.24 and Mark 13 at the same time with the seals of Rev.6, you will discover the main signs of the end Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse are those seals. The order of the seals follow the order of signs Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

He only gave seven main signs in Matt.24 and Mark 13, the last sign being that of His coming and gathering of the saints. The seals, trumpets, and vials of Revelation are those same seven signs, just expanded.

On the 6th vial, in Rev.16:15, our Lord Jesus is still warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief". That reveals that even by that 6th vial, His coming is still not until that 7th vial. In Rev.11, we are shown all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Son on the 7th trumpet. In Rev.6, Jesus returning is shown in the latter part of the 6th seal. Just by these event timings, it should show that not everything in Revelation is in chronological order.

So sorry, no shortcuts in studying our Lord's Revelation. Study in all of God's Word is necessary for His Revelation to really open up to us. And today some good folks are really behind in Bible study, having concentrated on other things in their lives.
 

pia

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So sorry, no shortcuts in studying our Lord's Revelation
I was not looking for shortcuts...What happened was that for the first time I had different thought on the script, than what a very deluded 'preacher' tried to fill our heads with once....Long story
 

pia

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Study in all
Have been seeking revelation on this subject for a long time, but the Lord had different ideas, and I prefer to give Him first place...If I NEED to know something, He will show me.. :)
 
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Helen

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He has kept me busy with the other end of the Bible more, never once taking me through Revelation...

And that is good. :)
But I do love Paul's writings and probably read them most of all.
 
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amadeus

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Have been seeking revelation on this subject for a long time, but the Lord had different ideas, and I prefer to give Him first place...If I NEED to know something, He will show me.. :)
Not to worry. I have studied it and while some parts of the Book of Revelation have been shown to me, a lot of it still has not fallen into place.

As you have said, if you [we] need it He will show you [us].

Look first to this verse:
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

And then look to this verse:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

In the first verse what I saw was not a command to study in order to uncover the truth, but rather a command to study to be approved of God... that is to say study out of obedience rather than to learn truth. If you study hard in scripture looking for the answer to a question, you will NEVER find it unless God reveals it to you. The second verse tells where our searches for truth without the leading of the Holy Ghost will take us... that is into "a weariness of the flesh".

The following verse shows us how to find what needs to be found according to God:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

Without the Holy Ghost the best theologian or Bible student in the world cannot find anything that is important to God.

Give God the glory!
 
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Jay Ross

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Yes the book of Revelation can be very confusing and the revelation of understanding can happen very slowly. I read the following from Revelation 16:17-21 just a week or so ago and came to a very different understanding to the "traditional" understanding that people hold because of verse 19.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Revelation 16: 17-21: - Seventh Bowl: The Earth Utterly Shaken

17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Now my confusion came about because of the translation of one Greek word, "σεισμὸς" which is found twice in verse 18 above and is wrongly translated as "earthquake" which creates confusion among the readers.

Now, if we read verse 19 we read we find these things that have happened just under 100 years ago: -

a. Now the great city was divided into three parts,

After WW1 Jerusalem was divided into three parts and controlled by three different identies.

b. and the cities of the nations fell.

During WW1 the cities of the nations around Israel were captured by a foreign power with help from one of the nations that it had established on the other side of the world from it.

c. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

After WW1 great Babylon was brought back to life and became inhabited again, after around 2,000 years of being desolated and devastated by the Greek occupying eastern empire around the year 130 B.C. so that God's fierce wrath could be measured out to it.

Now "σεισμὸς" is found in the following verses: - Matthew 8:24, 28:2, Acts 16:26, Revelation 6:12, 11:13, 11:19, 16:18, 16:18 and a better understood of these 8 verses is obtained if "σεισμὸς" is translated into English as "turmoil."

List of verses where “σεισμὸς” is found.

Matthew 8: 24- 24 And suddenly great turmoil arose on the sea, so that the boat was covered with the waves. But He was asleep.

Matthew 28: 2: - 2 And behold, there was great turmoil; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.

Acts 16: 26: - 26 Suddenly there was great turmoil, such that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's shackles were loosened.

Revelation 6: 12: - 12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was great turmoil; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Revelation 11: 13: - 13 In the same hour there was great turmoil, and a tenth of the city fell. In the unrest seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11: 19: - 19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, and turmoil, and great hail.

Revelation 16: 18: - 18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was great turmoil, such a mighty and great turmoil as had not occurred since men were on the earth.


The following verse with the Greek word “σεισμός” can be included in the above list: -

Revelation 8: 5: - 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and turmoil.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
Insert: -
And to clarify the Matthew account of the Crucifixion the following verse should also be included to helpthe overall understanding of what I am writing: -

The following verse with the Greek word “σεισμὸν” can be included in the above list as it is the plural of “σεισμὸς”: -

Matthew 27: 54: - 54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the turmoils and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God!"
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

In the above list, the Revelation verses can all be considered to be a description of battles where one group rises up against another in “battle” or armed conflict.

So returning to Revelation 16:17-21, we have already had the fulfilment of this prophecy as it presents events that occurred in and around WW1.

The translation of just one Greek word in this case, can lead to much confusion and cause us to miss the prophetic signs in scripture.

Shalom
 

Naomi25

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Anything that tries to draw us away from the Faith is a danger. And when our Lord Jesus Himself warned us of a specific danger to come, and His Apostles warned us also, that means to prepare ourselves for it and don't be deceived. Deception will be the main working at the very end with the coming Antichrist, not wars, not famines and earthquakes, etc. So when we encounter an idea or doctrine from men, and the Imminency doctrine is one of them (it's designed to support a false pre-trib rapture), because our Lord Jesus per His Word cannot and will not just come at any moment because of the signs He commanded us to watch, then we are to focus on what He said to do, and not what those men say to do. That is how it will boil down to being deceived in the end or not being deceived, dependence being upon who we listen to and heed.

Well...I both agree and disagree...which could be a tad frustrating...sorry! But, it does break down to those we are speaking about. I think there are those who are so hyper focused on Dispensationalism and End times in itself, that the very notion that they might be wrong in their interpretation doesn't occur to them...or, they won't let it occur to them. These people are probably in danger of being deceived, because they won't allow themselves to see the Antichrist in front of them...because he can't appear until they've been taken away in the rapture.
However, there are people who hold to Dispensationalism, but see it as very secondary to their faith. My grandparents were such people, and I know without a doubt that their faith in Jesus, their grip on scripture, their willingness to suffer for God...would have seen them through anything. Even a need to re calibrate a secondary doctrine should they need to. In their case, should Antichrist have come upon the scene and started trying to deceive people...they would not have bought into his lies, and they would have been humble enough to realize that perhaps the pre-trib rapture was not a biblical doctrine, but a man made one...and that was why they were still there.
Their humility is one reason I try so hard to approach such things with an open mind. I think the Amil position is the best reading of scripture...but I can see the other positions as well, and I know I might very well be wrong. I think...that this is where it all comes back to having a personal relationship with Jesus. If we belong to the Shepherd, we will know his voice...no matter where or when, and therefore, conversely, we shall know when we are not hearing it.
 

Davy

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Well...I both agree and disagree...which could be a tad frustrating...sorry! But, it does break down to those we are speaking about. I think there are those who are so hyper focused on Dispensationalism and End times in itself, that the very notion that they might be wrong in their interpretation doesn't occur to them...or, they won't let it occur to them. These people are probably in danger of being deceived, because they won't allow themselves to see the Antichrist in front of them...because he can't appear until they've been taken away in the rapture.

That underlined premise isn't correct from the start, the Church will be here when the Antichrist appears. That's why Apostle Paul said that false one must be 'revealed' in 2 Thess.2; that means physically revealed sitting in a temple in Jerusalem for 'us' to see, the Church. That's not the only Bible chapter pointing to the appearing of the Antichrist in Jerusalem.

However, there are people who hold to Dispensationalism, but see it as very secondary to their faith. My grandparents were such people, and I know without a doubt that their faith in Jesus, their grip on scripture, their willingness to suffer for God...would have seen them through anything. Even a need to re calibrate a secondary doctrine should they need to. In their case, should Antichrist have come upon the scene and started trying to deceive people...they would not have bought into his lies, and they would have been humble enough to realize that perhaps the pre-trib rapture was not a biblical doctrine, but a man made one...and that was why they were still there.
Their humility is one reason I try so hard to approach such things with an open mind. I think the Amil position is the best reading of scripture...but I can see the other positions as well, and I know I might very well be wrong. I think...that this is where it all comes back to having a personal relationship with Jesus. If we belong to the Shepherd, we will know his voice...no matter where or when, and therefore, conversely, we shall know when we are not hearing it.

Our Lord Jesus warned in Matthew 24:23-26 that the coming false one to Jerusalem will work great signs and wonders that IF POSSIBLE, would deceive even His very elect. Do you know what that means? His very elect means those He has already 'sealed' with The Holy Spirit that are called and chosen, and cannot be deceived. That working by the false one is pointing to a supernatural working on earth, doing miracles probably like what our Lord Jesus did on earth at His first coming. Many of the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem will think he is their awaited Messiah, and by that, many Christian pastors will fall in line with them and say that's our Lord Jesus (already for over a decade, some Christian Churches have been sending funds and red heifers to the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem in preparation for building their 3rd temple. See rev. Clyde Lott).

Paul said the coming false one is to exalt himself over all that is called... God, or that is worshiped. So that is going to include all religions being deceived to him along with the Jews. The deception he will do will be strong enough to end all wars on this earth and bring the short time of peace for the end, just prior to our Lord Jesus' coming and our gathering. And if Christ's very elect barely escape that deception, then what does that mean for Christian brethren that aren't familiar with these coming events which our Lord warned us about? Those will be like sheep at the slaughter.

It's not about how good a person we are, even though we are to try to be perfect for our Lord; it's about listening to our Lord Jesus and His Apostles in His Word, and heeding His warnings for this time. That because this coming event will be a time of trouble like no other time that has happened on this earth (Dan.12:1; Matt.24:21).
 
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Naomi25

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That underlined premise isn't correct from the start, the Church will be here when the Antichrist appears. That's why Apostle Paul said that false one must be 'revealed' in 2 Thess.2; that means physically revealed sitting in a temple in Jerusalem for 'us' to see, the Church. That's not the only Bible chapter pointing to the appearing of the Antichrist in Jerusalem.

Hi Davy. I'm a little confused here, sorry...or perhaps you are? I was saying that the people who may be deceived are those who think the Antichrist won't be revealed until they're gone. I actually agree with you, in that I read 2 Thess as saying that "that day" won't come unless the Antichrist appears. It's actually one of the reasons I started a thread....many dispensationalists seem to equate "Day of the Lord" with the Tribulation period, and therefore read 2 Thess 2 as "the Tribulation won't happen until the Antichrist comes upon the scene. And of course, they think they will be gone by then, thus, they won't see him. It confuses me, because I cannot find where they link "day of the lord" with the exact 7 year Tribulation period, really. Perhaps if you take a few steps back and look at it in a more vague way....? But...that's getting off topic, sorry.

Our Lord Jesus warned in Matthew 24:23-26 that the coming false one to Jerusalem will work great signs and wonders that IF POSSIBLE, would deceive even His very elect. Do you know what that means? His very elect means those He has already 'sealed' with The Holy Spirit that are called and chosen, and cannot be deceived. That working by the false one is pointing to a supernatural working on earth, doing miracles probably like what our Lord Jesus did on earth at His first coming. Many of the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem will think he is their awaited Messiah, and by that, many Christian pastors will fall in line with them and say that's our Lord Jesus (already for over a decade, some Christian Churches have been sending funds and red heifers to the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem in preparation for building their 3rd temple. See rev. Clyde Lott).

Paul said the coming false one is to exalt himself over all that is called... God, or that is worshiped. So that is going to include all religions being deceived to him along with the Jews. The deception he will do will be strong enough to end all wars on this earth and bring the short time of peace for the end, just prior to our Lord Jesus' coming and our gathering. And if Christ's very elect barely escape that deception, then what does that mean for Christian brethren that aren't familiar with these coming events which our Lord warned us about? Those will be like sheep at the slaughter.

It's not about how good a person we are, even though we are to try to be perfect for our Lord; it's about listening to our Lord Jesus and His Apostles in His Word, and heeding His warnings for this time. That because this coming event will be a time of trouble like no other time that has happened on this earth (Dan.12:1; Matt.24:21).

And again, I don't get it. You seem to be saying that the elect are sealed and "cannot be deceived". But then you go on and say that many Christian pastors will fall "in line" with them.
To me, scripture seems to say that it is not possible to deceive God's elect; and that, I suppose comes back to more of a 'once saved, always saved' question. Do we believe that if you are a genuine Christian, that in the end, you will remain faithful, no matter what deceptions are in the world? I'd have to say yes, for a number of reasons.
First, Jesus tells us that he will never loose those the Father has given to him. That's based upon his strength, upon his work...not ours. Then he tells us that his sheep know his voice, regarding the personal relationship we have with him. Christians don't always get everything right, but when you've got a big brother like Christ, and a Father like Yahweh, things tend to end up okay. It's our job to love Jesus and do our best to walk after him; it's his promise to us that he will finish and perfect our faith.
Lastly, he gives us some promises in regards to his return. He tells us that the enemy will try, and fail, to deceive us...nice info to have. And he also tells us that despite signs and wonders that might be performed in our very sight, we will know...know beyond any doubt, when Christ comes again. You don't need to be told that lightning has flashed, you see it, no matter where it struck. If you, or anyone, needs to give even a momentary thought to "oh golly, that was sort of amazing, even supernatural...perhaps that could be Jesus"....then it's not Jesus. There is only one Son of God, and despite what End Times doctrine you hold to, there will be no mistaking his return. If you believe in a pre-trib rapture, then that will be pretty unmistakable for the believers! If you don't, then having Jesus rip open the sky and return as conquering king will also be beyond doubt.
 

Davy

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Hi Davy. I'm a little confused here, sorry...or perhaps you are? I was saying that the people who may be deceived are those who think the Antichrist won't be revealed until they're gone. I actually agree with you, in that I read 2 Thess as saying that "that day" won't come unless the Antichrist appears. It's actually one of the reasons I started a thread....many dispensationalists seem to equate "Day of the Lord" with the Tribulation period, and therefore read 2 Thess 2 as "the Tribulation won't happen until the Antichrist comes upon the scene. And of course, they think they will be gone by then, thus, they won't see him. It confuses me, because I cannot find where they link "day of the lord" with the exact 7 year Tribulation period, really. Perhaps if you take a few steps back and look at it in a more vague way....? But...that's getting off topic, sorry.

My bad, I thought you were saying the scripture supported the idea that we are gone before Antichrist shows up.

And again, I don't get it. You seem to be saying that the elect are sealed and "cannot be deceived". But then you go on and say that many Christian pastors will fall "in line" with them.

OK, I'm not going to pull any punches with this explanation. I don't ask anyone to accept it if they don't want (nor should any believer until they've studied about it more in God's Word, and prayed about it).

Do you remember our Lord Jesus said many are called, but few are chosen? (Matt.20:16). What's the difference between being called vs. being chosen? This could get into Bible topics like predestination, but I'm not going to go deep in that. If we look at the OT patriarchs and prophets, and Christ's Apostles, with Apostle Paul especially, we discover that God directly chose them.

Apostle Paul especially, Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus when Paul had a letter of authority from the unbelieving Jews to hunt down Christians, and bring them in chains back to Jerusalem to be tried. Christ directly intervened in Paul's life to cause him to believe. He took Paul's free will choice away. Why? Because Jesus said Paul was His "chosen vessel" (Acts 9), which means He alread 'owned' Paul. So the idea of the 'very elect' is about previous ownership by our Lord and their being 'sent'. This is actually a topic in the John 17 chapter.

God said He knew Jeremiah before he was in his mother's womb. God said David was a man after His own heart. Those type of examples represent 'chosen' ones who were 'sent' (meaning of 'apostle'). They cannot be deceived or turned, because God already owns them. But before it's time for thier service, they might be found doing wrong, like Saul (Paul) who was persecuting Christ's Church with the Jews before Jesus struck him down and converted him.

But those of us who are 'called' only, we must make our own choice, and belief on our own. Then Jesus wants us to become joined with His very elect sent ones that cannot be turned. The difference with us who are called only, we must be tested.

That means those called only can... fall away and become apostates, if... we so choose. Christ's 'chosen' cannot turn away if they want, for Jesus already owns them. Like is said in John 17, Jesus said His chosen before belonged to The Father, and then The Father gave them to Him (Jesus). Jesus also said there that He prayed not only for His chosen sent ones, but also for those who come to Him through their... word (i.e., preaching).

This is why our Lord's warning about the false one in Matt.24:23-26 is much, much stronger than most realize. It's because the level of deceptive working of those signs and wonders will be so powerful so as to almost deceive His "very elect", meaning His chosen sent ones that He Himself alrealdy owns and controls and therefore cannot be deceived.

So who especially might be the Christian pastors and brethren deceived by the coming Antichrist. Those expecting to be raptured at the start of the trib primarily. The pre-trib rapture doctrine is specifically preparing them to believe on the first supernatural messiah that shows up. The first one of course, will be the Antichrist or 'in place of Christ' (actual meaning in the Greek).
 
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GISMYS_7

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The HUGE sign that we are the generation that will be living on rapture day is Israel being re-born as a nation after 2000+ years May 14,1948 and Israel regaining control of Jerusalem July 1967 and today we see Ezekiel 38 prophecy ready to be fulfilled as Iran (old Persia) backed by the king of the North Russia and now Turkey that will soon attack tiny Israel and be defeated by God. Time is short!!
 

Naomi25

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My bad, I thought you were saying the scripture supported the idea that we are gone before Antichrist shows up.



OK, I'm not going to pull any punches with this explanation. I don't ask anyone to accept it if they don't want (nor should any believer until they've studied about it more in God's Word, and prayed about it).

Do you remember our Lord Jesus said many are called, but few are chosen? (Matt.20:16). What's the difference between being called vs. being chosen? This could get into Bible topics like predestination, but I'm not going to go deep in that. If we look at the OT patriarchs and prophets, and Christ's Apostles, with Apostle Paul especially, we discover that God directly chose them.

Apostle Paul especially, Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus when Paul had a letter of authority from the unbelieving Jews to hunt down Christians, and bring them in chains back to Jerusalem to be tried. Christ directly intervened in Paul's life to cause him to believe. He took Paul's free will choice away. Why? Because Jesus said Paul was His "chosen vessel" (Acts 9), which means He alread 'owned' Paul. So the idea of the 'very elect' is about previous ownership by our Lord and their being 'sent'. This is actually a topic in the John 17 chapter.

God said He knew Jeremiah before he was in his mother's womb. God said David was a man after His own heart. Those type of examples represent 'chosen' ones who were 'sent' (meaning of 'apostle'). They cannot be deceived or turned, because God already owns them. But before it's time for thier service, they might be found doing wrong, like Saul (Paul) who was persecuting Christ's Church with the Jews before Jesus struck him down and converted him.

But those of us who are 'called' only, we must make our own choice, and belief on our own. Then Jesus wants us to become joined with His very elect sent ones that cannot be turned. The difference with us who are called only, we must be tested.

That means those called only can... fall away and become apostates, if... we so choose. Christ's 'chosen' cannot turn away if they want, for Jesus already owns them. Like is said in John 17, Jesus said His chosen before belonged to The Father, and then The Father gave them to Him (Jesus). Jesus also said there that He prayed not only for His chosen sent ones, but also for those who come to Him through their... word (i.e., preaching).

This is why our Lord's warning about the false one in Matt.24:23-26 is much, much stronger than most realize. It's because the level of deceptive working of those signs and wonders will be so powerful so as to almost deceive His "very elect", meaning His chosen sent ones that He Himself alrealdy owns and controls and therefore cannot be deceived.

So who especially might be the Christian pastors and brethren deceived by the coming Antichrist. Those expecting to be raptured at the start of the trib primarily. The pre-trib rapture doctrine is specifically preparing them to believe on the first supernatural messiah that shows up. The first one of course, will be the Antichrist or 'in place of Christ' (actual meaning in the Greek).

No...no you didn't pull any punches! And so I, also, will be straight with you. I can see absolutely no evidence for this 'third' category, within scripture. There are the Jews and there are the Gentiles, and the wall in between them has been broken down by Christ, in whom we are all one.

Consider Ephesians:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:3–14

The whole passage is heavy with implications, but for our purposes, it's still quite clear. Paul is speaking to the entire Ephesian church, and we also know from Paul's writings in Timothy that all of scripture is applicable to every Christian. So there is no theological reason why someone who has "heard the word of truth, the gospel of...salvation, and believed in him", would not think this entire passage is also directed at them. And it clearly teaches that as Christians we are all chosen, before the foundation of the world; and once in Christ, we are blessed with every spiritual blessing. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is the assurance, the guarantee of our inheritance. Why would Paul phrase it in such strong language, such sure language, if there was a whole category of Christians who were able...more, liable, to fall away at the slightest deception?

There are several more mentions in the NT alone that apply the "chosen" label to the church as a whole, rather than to a select few:

Romans 11:5, Colossians 3:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:4–5a, 1 Peter 2:4–5, 1 Peter 2:9

Then...if we look at the flip side. Paul outright says he was called by God.

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, - Romans 1:1

And in Acts 13:2, Romans 9:24, 1 Corinthians 1:1, Galatians 1:15

You get my point...
The two words are harmonious and we see them working together too often in scripture to be able to build a doctrine that says they point to different categories of elect. The times we see, like Matt 22:14, the two seemingly at odds, we need to be guided by other scripture. And other scripture is clear. Just like in Romans 8:30: (And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.), we see that it is a somewhat follow-on thing. Everyone is called...but not everyone answers that call. The common grace of the message of grace is extended to the world, but not every soul offers their heart up in response to their Saviors call. But we can say, that every person who is Chosen, was also called...they answered that call. Things then sort of get muddled up in the doctrine of free will/predestination, which I think is a whole other thread! But I think that the bible clearly interweaves the notion of "called" and "chosen". I do not see what you have painted, I'm sorry. And I certainly don't see how only being 'called' by God would leave us open and vulnerable for the likes of the Antichrist. I'm not doubting that individual would be dangerous or even very deceptive. But I would think the real 'test' for a Christian, would be how well they knew their Lord and how strong their faith was. I cannot see anywhere in the bible that teaches it rests upon the status of "chosen" or "called", and that being one of the 'called' left us open

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. - Romans 11:29
 

pia

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"Study to shew
If you check a concordence you will find that this word has been translated as 'study' but it means other things also, and another way I saw it made much more sense, because there were no Bibles in Pauls day when he wrote that...Instead of 'study'....:" 'Intensely endeavor' to show yourself approved" and so on, makes a lot more sense to me
 
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Davy

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No...no you didn't pull any punches! And so I, also, will be straight with you. I can see absolutely no evidence for this 'third' category, within scripture. There are the Jews and there are the Gentiles, and the wall in between them has been broken down by Christ, in whom we are all one.
....

I didn't make the distinction. Our Lord Jesus did:

John 17:6-11
6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine.
10 And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are.
KJV


Which ones is our Lord Jesus talking about above? all the Church, or His chosen Apostles? Keep going...

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV


This so far suggets He was talking about His Apostles He chose, since He is pointing to Judas as that "son of perdition", so the OT prophesy would be fulfilled.

John 17:18-19
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
KJV


To be a 'sent' one is to be an apostle, which is the Greek meaning of the word for apostle. Are all apostles? No.

John 17:20
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
KJV


By that Jesus revealed 2 different groups of believers; His chosen 'sent' ones (apostles), and "them also which shall believe on Me through their word".

John 17:21-22
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
22 And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are one:
KJV


And our Lord's petition was that both... groups... would become one in Him and The Father, even as He and The Father are One.


This is why Apostle Paul and all the Apostles kept admonishing those in the Church, because they knew some would fall away:

Acts 20:28-31
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
KJV

2 Tim 4:2-4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
KJV

2 Peter 2:1-2
2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord That bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
KJV

Christ's Apostles weren't speaking of those outside Christ's Church there. If those who fall away were 'chosen' 'sent' ones, they would never fall away, and that's the difference. Those above are 'called' only, and thus can fall away if they so choose. Those Scriptures might be a shock to some brethren, especially for those who like to play religion and never get around to heeding what God's Holy Writ actually says, but there it is, like it or not.