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Featured JESUS, the Holy Spirit, the Only True God.

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by 101G, Jan 19, 2019.

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  1. Gregory

    Gregory Member

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    The Hebrew name for "God" in Genesis 1:1 is "Elohim".
    The Hebrew name for the "Lord God" in Genesis 2:4 is "Yahweh Elohim".

    I believe they are 2 different Persons. There are many scriptures that you can quote that make it look like they are the same Person, but there are many scriptures that declare that they are 2 separate and distinct Persons. 2 numerically different Persons.

    If God is in heaven and Jesus was on earth, this proves there are 2 Persons.

    Or do you believe that God and Jesus are the same Person, and through the quality of omnipresence, Jesus can be on earth and in heaven at the same time?
     
  2. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Hi @Gregory The Biblical position is God in Three Persons: end of Matthew 28; Romans 8; John's First Epistle, and many other passages.
     
  3. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    first thanks for the reply, second lets take this one step at a time.

    you said, "The Hebrew name for "God" in Genesis 1:1 is "Elohim"" ERROR, that;s what he is , not who he is in Name, know the difference in a name, "WHO", vs "WHAT".

    now God name, (his personal), name as to WHO he is was not given in the OT, because he had not yet MANIFESTED in person yet. supportive Scripture, Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I."
    shall is a future designation, which was fulfilled when he came in person/flesh. listen, he said, "I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I." when was this fulfilled, answer, John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

    now if you cannot believe that, then you're still in your sins. please understand, "I AM" or I AM THAT I AM or H1961 הָיָה hayah (haw-yaw) v. is a VERB, and not a NOUN. verbs don't identify the person, but verbs identify the "ACTION" of the person. look at H1961 הָיָה hayah (haw-yaw) v again, it's a VERB. verbs tell us "WHAT" you are, I AM King, I AM Father, I AM Saviour, ect........ but the Noun tells us "WHO, the King is, the Father, and the Saviour is by NAME. scripture, Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." JESUS/YESHUA , Hebrew origin (H3442 ),
    H3442 יֵשׁוַּע Yeshuwa` (yay-shoo'-ah) n/l.
    1. he will save.

    and notice it's a NOUN. meaning "WHO" he is in NAME, not "WHAT" he is in Name, but "WHO" that's why Baptize in the Name of "JESUS", one name,

    You said, "If God is in heaven and Jesus was on earth, this proves there are 2 Persons".
    ERROR, that ONE PERSON, Shared. scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
    well God have no equal. so that kills any two persons.

    one name, one person, one Spirit, diversified.

    now let me ask you a question, Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

    ok, Gregory. how many person(s), is "ME?" ...... one correct, now this ONE person.. "ME" said, "BESIDE" him, him, there is no God. me is a single person desigination, and the term "beside" means, at the side of; next to. and he said that there is no one at his side, or next to him. now if God/the he, or the "ME" in the vers, said, "I know not any", so how do you know any, and "I" is a single PERSON, a Single PERSON, designation.

    again, if he say, "I know not any", who is you to add to the Word of God?....... well.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  4. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    The Name of God?

    Jesus or Jehovah, AKA Yahweh

    I have posted this once before, we know that, "I AM", is an emphatic verb, which is a name that describe what God is, so where did the Names Jehovah, and, Yahweh come from?. is not Jehovah in the bible?. So where did the names come from. these name came from, what is know as the tetragrammaton, and men tampered with it by adding vowels to these four letters. the tetragrammaton is a term from the Greek word, τετραγράμματον, meaning, "a word having four letters". It is the Hebrew written word, or four letters, (יהוה), Yodh, He, Waw, He, hence the translation into English, YHWH, or JHVH by some. these four letters, suppose to be the unpronounced name of God. and from these four letters come the man made names Yahweh, Hebrew, and Jehovah, English.

    a name is an Identifier, as to what and, or who you are. quick example. if I said, "What is the name of the first woman?" many would say, Eve and you would be wrong. because I asked "WHAT" is the first woman name, not "WHO" the First woman in name. for the woman Eve is a Adam in NAME as to WHAT she is, yes, a female man, is "WHAT" she is... supportive scripture, Genesis 5:1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;"
    Genesis 5:2 "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created." BINGO, there she is... a "Adam" because that's what she is, and if I would have asked "WHO" the First woman was... then EVE would have been correct. because "WHO" she is in name is EVE.

    we need to clarify the "Truth". Now the question is, what is God proper/PERSONAL name. is it Jehovah, English or Yahweh, in Hebrew. well it's neither, Jehovah, nor Yahweh. lets see how they derived those names from the tetragrammaton. The word "JEHOVAH" was formed by merging the three vowels (e, o, and a) into the Romanized (Latinized) four letter version JHVH to get, JeHoVaH. and the word "YAHWEH" was formed by merging the vowels (a, and e), into the four letter version to get, YaHWeH. so we have the English man made, and the Hebrew man made form of God's supposed unpronounced name. here is the mistake. they, (the translator), added vowels to the four letter consonant, to make up a name to pronounce. one can never add or take away from the WORD of God. they added vowels to give God a personal name, because they knew that YHWH is a verb, and not a noun. and because the suppose name was lost, which the Jews said was forbidden to pronounce, they made a guess at the name where pointers should be. this was a grave mistake on their part. when you add to the word of God you just put the spiritual noose around your neck. arbitrarily, the translators injected the vowels into the four letter consonant to come up with the names, "YaHWeH", and, "JeHoVaH".

    now go back and read what Moses asked God about his name.... Moses asked God, "WHAT" is your name, and God gave him just what he asked.... "I AM", for I AM is "WHAT God is.... as said, I AM King, Saviour, Redeemer, Governor.....ect...

    if Moses would have asked God.... "WHO" are you in name, then we all would have known God Holy name.... for he would have said, "JESUS/YESHUA".

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  5. Gregory

    Gregory Member

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    101G says
    OK, what is "Elohim"?

    And in Genesis 2:4 what is Yahweh Elohim?

    Obviously Paul thought that Jesus was equal to God. Now if you think Jesus and God are the same person, then you have one person who cannot be equaled.

    But I believe that Jesus and God are 2 distinct and separate persons, and so I believe that Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal to God, just as the scripture says.

    If Jesus and God are the same person, how can one part of this one person be greater than the other part?
    John 14:28 King James Version (KJV)
    28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    Yet Jesus does sit next to God in the heavens today. Jesus sits on the right side of God, awaiting the second coming. How could that be if they are the same person?

    You are right and this definition is correct. Jesus does sit on the right side of God. Sitting next to him on his right side waiting for the second coming of Christ. (see Mark 16:19, Romans 8:34, Hebrews 10:12 + 5 other scriptures that declare the same)

    There is even an event where God and Jesus are seen standing side by side, by Stephen the first martyr for the church.
    (see Acts 7:56) Jesus standing next to God proves there are 2 distinct entities, not just one.

    Like I say, there are scriptures you can produce from the bible that would tend to prove God and Jesus are one person. BUT there are as many that can be produced from the same bible that would tend to prove that God and Jesus are 2 persons.

    I happen to believe they are 2 persons.
     
  6. Gregory

    Gregory Member

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    Interesting scholarship, thank you. I will remember that.

    Moses asked God:
    Exodus 3:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
    13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
    14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
    15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

    So I can only suggest that if Moses messed up some how and asked God "what" his name was, God must have know that Moses was asking "who are you in name", and went ahead and answered him with a name that God would be known for ever. I AM., even though to some that is a "verb", God forever will use it as one of his names. Jesus, who was the God speaking to Moses, even referred to his name in his earthly ministry. (see John 8:58)

    So you have studied hard and I appreciate it, but in this case, I am not sure how much it is worth.
     
  7. user

    user Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the forum.

    In the Old Testament, Father dwelt between the cherubs in the Tabernacle.

    But now, as we will see in a minute, Jesus is the New Testament Tabernacle, the body of flesh that "housed" the FULNESS of the Godhead bodily...

    Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


    Tabernacle means to dwell with. God would meet with the priest from between the wings of the Cheribums. The Bible says God is a spirit and is literally everywhere at the same time (omnipresent) which, he meets with the priest in one specific place. All His personality, His attributes, His knowledge, His entire being, in one place between the wings of the Cheribums.

    God himself had planned to, later Tabernacle (dwell) with us in another way. Instead of meeting between the Wings of the Cheribums, he chose to dwell with us in bodily form...

    John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..."

    Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.



    St. John 14:10 records Jesus saying, "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The WORDS that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that DWELLETH IN ME, he doeth the works.

    2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto Himself..."


    God told Moses to make the Old Testament tabernacle with rams' skins dyed red, and a covering above of badgers' skins (Exodus 26:14). From the outside, it was not particularity beautiful. Jesus, the New Tabernacle, is not a man of outer beauty that we should desire him...

    Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.


    When the priest was in the Holy Place, and about to enter into the Holiest Of Holies, he knew God was on the other side of the Veil. The New Testament tells us that Jesus' flesh, his skin, is the VEIL...

    Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
    [20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


    The virgin Mary gave birth to a bouncing baby boy. That boy (N.T. Tabernacle) laied down his will to be obedient to the Father that dwells in him.

    As a man, he hunger and thirst. As Father manifest in the flesh, he forgave sin.

    This is why there appears to be scriptures of two persons, as well as the two are the same person.


    Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    God Bless!
     
  8. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    @Gregory. Thanks for the reply and the concern, but rest assured, God personal name is not lost, for he gave it to us.
    but let me help you out, listen, Exodus 6:3 "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."
    God clear as day, he said, Abraham unto Isaac didn't know him by the name "Jehovah".... correct, well listen, Genesis 22:14 "And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen."

    now, did God LIE? God forbid, no. so how did the false name Jehovah get into Abraham mouth then? ..... see what I mean now. well someone put it there, (in writting), and it was neither God, nor Abraham. see how easy it is to catch a lie. Jehovah was never God personal name, but "I AM", or H1961 הָיָה hayah (haw-yaw) is "WHAT" he is in name, but NOT his Personal Name. just as there are plain verbs, there are emphatic verbs also. likewise, there are common, and proper Nouns. verbs are not Nouns. now watch how someone can mix up nouns. when not knowing the difference between common, and proper nouns. example, say for instance you went to McDonalds, and you tell the cashier to give you a Hamburger, well that's a common name, but when you say "BIG MACK" then you identify or specify the exact "hamburger" you want, for hamburger is a common noun, because you have the quater pounder, and the plain hamburger..ect.., but when you say, "Big Mack", which is the proper name of the hamburger you want, you have eliminated all hamburgers. just as in Moses asking God Holy Name, in "WHAT" he is in Name. the same as with trees in the forest, you have all kinds, but if you "Maple", you have just eliminated all the other trees, except the Maples.

    no, one don't have to be a scholar, just common sense, and a dictionary by guidance of the Holy Spirit will gleen you many revelations about the Word of God.

    just go with God. and discussion, as here, are good, because someone else can say one word and open up what you might have been studying on.

    Be blessed, and thanks for the reply.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  9. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    To all, concering God's Holy Name. especially my JW brothers and sisters here on the site. I know many use the Name "Jehovah". but whom you call Jehovah is really JESUS. let me explain.

    I have asked this to many scholars, and some here on this board, and got the same results. and some of these scholars, who have written books on this subject .... God's Holy Name, are in the same boat as the Lay people, because of assumptions. one scripture that prove so devastating to a many of christians who follow the name "Jehovah" is this one. I ask, "who is the ONE that sent his angel to John in the book of Revelation, chapter 1, verse 1. lets see it, Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" and I warn them before they answer, listen to the angel himself, because he tells us who sent him to John. listen, the sent angel is speaking, Revelation 22:6 "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

    so the angel said, the Lord God .... of ....... "the holy prophets" .. sent him. automatically their minds, based on what was said in Revelation 1:1, automatically they assume it must be the Father. based on two things, A. the title Lord God, and with B. the term, holy prophets, (as many told me, the prophets of the OT). see they "ASSUME", well there are holy prophets in both the OT and the NT. but they they "ASSUME", and assumptions will sink your ship in a heartbeat. my JW friends sails on those very same assumptions, and even put the name JEHOVAH in place of "Lord God". they even put it in their NWT, their latest bible.

    but here is where God exposes all those assumptions, because in the same chapter of revelation 22, the Word of God clearly tells us who sent his angel, listen. Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

    BINGO, "I Jesus have sent mine angel". see how one can be deceived on assumptions. and now my JW friends have to live with that assumptions because they put it in print, (in their Bible translation). someone had to be alseelp at the wheel, in the same chapter? and no one caught it.

    so according to the JW bible, (and one can read it on their site), they call their Jehovah Jesus... my oh my.

    that's why no one can assume anything when it comes to the Word of God....... reasearch it out, and then go to God, for his approval.

    well the same thing with my trinitarian friends, scripture, Matthew 3:17 "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
    another assumption. the bible, no where at our Lord's Baptism say the voice is the Father's voice, that's an assumption on the believers part. see how easly we can be deceived. and some will argue you down, and yet have no scripture to back it up, but they ASSUME.

    this lead to what the bible calls, "DELUSION". 2 Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

    2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" (wow, that's dangerous )

    2 Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

    the only thing I can say is this, if you believe that your doctrine is so true, then put it on the table of examination.... by YOU. and let
    1 Thessalonians 5:21 fall where it may.


    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  10. Gregory

    Gregory Member

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    I think I understand what you believe. Let me put it into words:
    You believe that God existed from the beginning of the creation of the world. He was a spirit. Then when it was time for Jesus to come into the world to save all mankind, this God/spirit came and was housed in the flesh and blood of the man we call Jesus.

    Am I right? We have to be right on this before we can go on. So let me know.
     
  11. Gregory

    Gregory Member

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    We know from the scriptures that there was "a voice from heaven". And we know what the voice said. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

    This is an interesting scripture. Who do you think was heard in the heavens? Was it a person other than God? Was it Jesus, conveying his voice into the heavens? OR could it have really been God, the Father of Jesus?

    Another interesting point about this scripture is that as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he noticed the Holy Spirit descending from above and it came down upon Jesus like a dove would come from above you and landing on your shoulder.
    So that in this instance, the scriptures are declaring that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were 2 separate and distinct entities. Right?

    So:
    1) who was it that was heard from the heavens?
    2) because Jesus looked up and saw the Holy Spirit coming towards him, are they 2 distinct entities?
     
  12. user

    user Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is that one God (Father) manifest in the flesh.
     
  13. user

    user Well-Known Member

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    Jesus had a conversation with a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. Speaking with him face to face (here on earth) telling him "I am in heaven"...

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


    Omnipresence has Jesus coming out of the water at the baptism of John, and simultaneously descending like a dove (which was a sign unto John), while speaking from heaven in Matthew 3:16, which was a perfect example of how our one true God can multitask. God does not jump out of one person in Mexico to go and jump into another saved person in France, He is in all saved people at the same time, and was in all three places at that baptism while still being the one omnipresent Spirit which is in heaven...

    Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    That same God which spoke to Moses through a burning bush, overshadowed Mary and she conceived a seed. That one spirit simultaneously inhabits that seed AND remains in heaven (omnipresent). When Mary gives birth, we now have SPIRIT become FLESH. That bouncing baby boy is the ALMIGHTY manifest in the flesh.


    God Bless!
     
  14. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    First thanks for the reply, second, do you think that only God speak from heaven? ...... :eek: YIKES.

    lets see then. tell us Gregory, God told abraham to offer his son to him, correct. Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am."
    Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of." THIS IS GOD SPEAKING... right, now this,

    Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." THESE WORDS WAS SPOKEN OUT OF HEAVEN, so tell us who was speaking out of heaven here? was it God? yes or no, read Genesis 22:12 above again and let us know.... ok.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  15. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Correct, the ONE God, (Father) who "shared" himself, or manifested in flesh as the another of himself, the MANIFESTED Son.

    for the title(s) of the ONE TRUE and LIVING, "ETERNAL" God is Father/LORD/the ordinal First, and the Son/Lord/the ordinal Last.

    same one person, the numerical difference of that very same one Person, manifested in flesh. the G243 allos of ONE-SELF.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  16. Gregory

    Gregory Member

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    The scripture in Genesis tells us straight out that it was an angel that spake to Abraham.

    Does that help us know who spoke from the heavens in Matthew 3? No.

    So who do you think spoke from heaven to the crowd at the baptism? Hint: the person called Jesus his beloved Son.
     
  17. Gregory

    Gregory Member

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    Is Jesus sitting on the right side of his Father still clothed in flesh?
     
  18. Gregory

    Gregory Member

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    How does one part of the ONE God sit at the Father's right side. If one is sitting on the right hand of God, it has to be another entity, right/
     
  19. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC, to all,
    first thanks for the reply, second, yes, it do. for the angel spoke for God..... and in Matthews the scriptures never say it was God voice, it said, "A voice". now as I said, if you can find a verse in the bible that say it was God the Father speaking from heaven at the Lord Jersus baptism, then post it.... it's just that simple, post the scripture that say it was the Father's voice.

    no it don't help you a bit at matthews, it kills your false notions.

    the hint who spoke is "a voice" now prove by scripture that it was the Father's voice. and just because of the hint...... as in Genesis 22:11 "And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I." Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

    now Gregory, concering "sons", as a hint, did Abraham not witheld his only son from God or the angel? read Genesis 22:12 again real carefully... and see who said it ..... "FROM" ..... heaven... :eek: YIKES!.

    so unless you can come up with a scripture to prove me in error about the voice at the Lord Jesus baptism, then your seesssment have been proven false.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  20. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    LOL, LOL, LOL, excuse me for laughing, but your reply shows just how carnal you are. understand, "RIGHT HAND", is not physical.... it means in authority, and POWER. in the Greek it's G1411, dunamis, "ABILITY, MIGHT", POWER and G1849, exousia, "freedom of action, right to act", AUTHORITY.

    now a little something on your false notion of sitting NEXT to .... lol, listen and understand, Revelation 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

    so Gregory, where do the Lord Jesus sit? .... "IN" the throme... :D YIKES, and go and find out what that means..... my Oh my, when will they ever learn. now if you need help in understanding .... just ask..... :p

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
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