Yeah, well his friends didnt even console with their lips! They were silent and grieved with him for a few days and then they couldn't take the horror of what had befallen him any more. They couldn't bear the fear that if God allowed all that to befall Job, maybe it could befall them too. So to alleviate the fear, they had to blame him as being in control of what befell him. That way, they could keep believing they also could control what befell them. They weren't trying to console him at all, actually. They were trying to console themselves.
Job 17
- Thread starter stunnedbygrace
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Could be true...there are folks like that who I call fearful and weak in faith....at least..
Arent we all fearful and weak in faith when His hand is so heavy on us? We WANT to accept His will but we have such a hard time (while in it) trying to grasp that it really IS His will. Yet if we really do believe our Lord has been given all authority on earth, as He said, we have to believe that if it is befalling us, it IS His will...
Yes easier said than done...although I have been in a few trials in my life although I have not lost my wife or children as one of them. I was personally tested in my marriage many years ago. Even today I see can remember and even distantly 'feel' how my life was turned upside down and then twisted over again..like into a pretzel. It was one trial with a demonic presence and I cannot explain it any other way. But throughout it all and during it, I felt my faith was strong BETWEEN the times I came up for a breath and considered my still turbulent predicament. I did feel weak and helpless although not in faith..I became very humbled over time, more and more, if that is a sign of weakness....and then God came back to console me when he knew I was ready......this event(s) will stay will me always as a reminder that the love and peace of God has no equal....he gave me rest...Amen
The irony is that they were all wrong about what was happening, especially Job.
Only it was really Satan that was beating the crap out of Job. You have to remember that Job doesn't get to see behind the curtain, only the reader does.
Okay, so Job couldn't see behind the curtain. Yet it says: Job said, God has given and God has taken away and so he did not sin by blaming God. So really, he had just said it was God who had taken away from him, yet it then said he did not blame God.
So he saw it as from Gods hand and he at first accepted it as Gods will, I think. But then impatience with pain and sorrow made him begin to...be kind of angry with God
If you have a child and you give someone permission to pummel the stuffing out of your child, would you then say to your child, it wasn't me, I had nothing to do with it. It was that guy that I gave permission to who did it, not me.
Job was ticked at God and I can't blame him for that.
But he was wrong to say God took away from him, when God was the one that gave it and Satan took it away.
It's a mistake we all probably make at some point. All good comes down from the Father.
The impression I get from the story is that God had given Job a special protection because of Job's obedient heart. And even when he took away this protection, he still kept Satan from doing his worst. I think it shows that God rewarded Job, but we aren't guaranteed any reward in this life just for being faithful. Neither are we guaranteed punishment in this life for doing wrong. The point I got from it, is that we only see through a very dark glass...we understand little.
"Yet it says: Job said, God has given and God has taken away and so he did not sin by blaming God."
Maybe not by blaming God but, he did sin by claiming to be without sin.
Elihu condemns both Job and his friends both. Then he states God’s justice, and then chastens Job's attitude towards God Himself!.
Here is what is written in the King James Bible:
Upright men shall be astonied [astonished] at this, and the innocent shall stir up himself against the hypocrite. The righteous also shall hold on his way, and he that hath clean hands shall be stronger and stronger.
The words are different because they are speaking about different things. These are the words of Job, who has discovered that his so-called friends have judged him guilty of wrongdoing (because of his catastrophic losses), even though he is a righteous man.
So Job says that upright men will be astonished at his plight, and the innocent ones will stand up against the hypocrites. The righteous will remain righteous, and those who have clean hands will remain stronger and stronger.
'He hath made me also a byword of the people;
and aforetime I was as a tabret (ie., a drum to which people gave heed).
Mine eye also is dim by reason of sorrow,
and all my members are as a shadow.
Upright men shall be astonied at this,
and the innocent shall stir up himself against the hypocrite.
The righteous also shall hold on his way,
and he that hath clean hands shall be stronger and stronger.
But as for you all, do ye return, and come now:
for I cannot find one wise man among you.'
(Job 17:6-10)
Interesting thread, @stunnedbygrace,
I see that these are Job's words, spoken in reply to his friend Eliphaz: who shows the inadequacy of human experience in regard to righteousness; as Bildad of human tradition, and Zophar of human merit. Elihu points to God as the giver of a Divine righteousness for helpless guilty sinners.
Job knows that He is in God's hands, and that what he is experiencing is God's doing (Job 16:11-14), He knows that God has prevented his friends from understanding (Job 17:4). For God has an object in view regarding Job, a glorious object, as seen in Job 40:4-5 & Job 42:5-6, which is the confession of human impotence in attaining righteousness, and thankfully casting himself on Divine omnipotence for salvation. All is to this 'end'.
Praise God!
In Job 17:8-9, Job tells of the various reactions there have been to his plight. The 'upright' were astonished, the 'innocent' stirred up by such seeming unjust treatment. However the righteous shall hold to his way, and the one with clean hands (the innocent) will go from strength to strength. They will not be adversely affected.
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
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@stunnedbygrace,
*God's' purpose for Job accomplished:-
'Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee?
I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer:
yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.'
(Job 40:3-5)
'I have heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear:
but now mine eye seeth Thee.
Wherefore I abhor myself,
and repent in dust and ashes.'
(Job 42:5-6)
* I have been in this place by the grace of God: and have echoed the words of Job here. For which I am eternally grateful.
Praise God! (for He is Holy)
In Christ Jesus
Chris
*God's' purpose for Job accomplished:-
'Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee?
I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer:
yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.'
(Job 40:3-5)
'I have heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear:
but now mine eye seeth Thee.
Wherefore I abhor myself,
and repent in dust and ashes.'
(Job 42:5-6)
* I have been in this place by the grace of God: and have echoed the words of Job here. For which I am eternally grateful.
Praise God! (for He is Holy)
In Christ Jesus
Chris
I think CharismaticLady was correct in post #(4) about seeing Job as cursed.
These are the people who view Job as being judged by God for some sin. The virtuous, innocent, and righteous with clean hands.
And, I am convinced that if God had not brought Job through this trial, that Job would have been one of those virtuous and innocent who did the same. Had not God brought Job through the trial, he would have been just like his three friends who gave bad advice.
I'm sure that after the trial Job would never jump to the conclusion that God was judging someone just because Job saw bad things happening in his life.
Stranger
Hi @stunnedbygrace,
'Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous:
nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness
unto them which are exercised thereby.'
(Hebrews 12:11)
Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
This is a very good observation. It's our tendency to judge others who are suffering, thinking that they must deserve it in some way. We like to believe that if we do everything "right," we won't ever suffer.... But this idea is not supported by the scriptures. Jesus said that in this world, we would have trouble (John 16:33). We're told in Heb 5:8, "Although He [Jesus] was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered." If our perfect Lord learned obedience in this way, how much more will we?
I've learned that there are two ways to suffer--either within God's will or outside of His will, meaning because we are obeying Him or because we are disobeying Him. When we suffer because of obedience to Him (within His will), He always gives us strength and supplies the grace so that we can make it through the trial with our faith intact. When we suffer because of disobedience, it can be unbearable.
Either way, suffering can feel devastating, but I have seen that God accomplishes a work in us through the suffering He lovingly allows in our lives, and this work could not be accomplished any other way. It's part of the sanctification process. He uses our suffering to mold us like a Master Potter molds the clay as He forms us into a usable vessel for His service.
We're told to rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep (Rom 12:15). If you're suffering right now, my heart goes out to you. I pray that you will feel His strength and grace surrounding you and filling you! You will not suffer forever, and He will get you through this trial! This too shall pass, and one day, we will be in a place where there is no suffering.
Revelation 21:1-4--Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
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10 In his kindness God called you to share in his eternal glory by means of Christ Jesus. So after you have suffered a little while, he will restore, support, and strengthen you, and he will place you on a firm foundation. 11 All power to him forever! Amen.
Hi SBG. An important factor that has not not been included in any of the translations provided so far, is the opposing clause that is found in many reliable versions. Either the words 'nevertheless' or 'yet', automatically distinguish that Job is now representing a different, or more specific, type of person, other than all those that are defined in the preceding verse. That is, although the first assertion explains that many 'righteous' will become appalled and cynical at seeing his demise, this perceived stumbling block will not affect the sincerely devout and truly faithful.
I imagine that the use of different adjectives, is one, a literary convention to avoid repetition (small point). But also, to define a group requires more than one expression. I think by varying his words, he offers a greater definition to whom he's referring to?
New International Version
Nevertheless, the righteous will hold to their ways, and those with clean hands will grow stronger.
English Standard Version
Yet the righteous holds to his way, and he who has clean hands grows stronger and stronger.
Berean Study Bible
Yet a righteous one holds to his way, and the one with clean hands grows stronger.
New American Standard Bible
"Nevertheless the righteous will hold to his way, And he who has clean hands will grow stronger and stronger.
New King James Version
Yet the righteous will hold to his way, And he who has clean hands will be stronger and stronger.
Christian Standard Bible
Yet the righteous person will hold to his way, and the one whose hands are clean will grow stronger.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Yet the righteous person will hold to his way, and the one whose hands are clean will grow stronger.
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Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
The passage of Job 17:1-9
This could be talking about Jesus.
He was falsely accused, mocked, scorned, torn to ribbons.
He was in such a bad state as an innocent man, "Upright me are appalled at this", which they were.
Innocent - which Jesus was - was woken up against the ungodly, in the judgement to come.
The righteous, those who know the way of the Lord, will keep the ways of God,
those not guilty, with clean hands, will grow in strength and power, which they did in the Kingdom of God.
So the passage is dealing with different aspects of Gods people, of Jesus, of what will come to pass.
At least this is my immediate impression of these verses.
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