Job 17

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Waiting on him

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Let me try another approach. The problem we the readers need to tackle is how to defend the Perfection of God. If we perceive imperfections in God in our minds or have unexpressed doubts, how do we deal with them? The basic question in the book of Job is probably why do bad things happen to good people? My starting premise when dealing with doubts about God is that I have the problem. I attribute error to myself, not to God.
Compare Job to the prodigal son who was not content at home with his father. His life was comfortable, but he wondered if he might be happier on his own, away from his father. His basic problem, I think, was that he did not understand and appreciate the fact that his father loved him. He did not see the love of his father and did not love his father that much. So he asked for his inheritance, got it and left. Things went downhill and finally disastrous. When he came to his senses, he wondered if he should go home. He was not presuming it would be, he did not assume his father loved him -- and he said to himself he would be willing to work for his father as a laborer if not accepted as a son when he returned.

What the prodigal son learned from his experiences on his own was the lesson of love. He finally perceived that his father did care about him. It was real, and not an act. His brother, who never left home, still did not understand that and was resentful. Those who err and are then forgiven learn the lesson of love. Those who are forgiven much love much as Jesus put it.

Now let me begin my critique of Job. He was just, he was righteous, he was perfect in a legalistic way. Perfect in Hebrew has two spellings -- one is 440, the other is 490. The book of Job uses the 440 type to Job. It never uses the 490 type, but I think it's inferred if you see the 50 of Pentecost being added to Job's initial 440 type. He reached a different kind of perfection after Pentecost.

We are told Job was righteous; but the book does not say he was wise or loving. He was neither at the beginning. His family life was a wreck emotionally. Superficially everything looks good with all the wealth, but if we allow ourselves to feel his situation by using our emotions, we can see all was not well.

You probably wouldn't have enjoyed being around Job. His children didn't. He had given them wealth so they could live on their own, and they took the money and ran. Rich people can be like that: You want your children to be rich and successful since they are seen as extensions of self. I think Job's children felt that way about him. My evidence? They visited each other and not him. I find the following a shocking picture of Job's family life:

Job 1:2 And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.
3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.

Seven days a week and seven sons suggests to me they never visited Job. What was Job doing?

5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

I'm sure you've been around people who are critical of almost everything you and others do. They are busy worrying about things that aren't worth worrying about. Job wasn't the type to be overly critically of others verbally, but he was a worrier. You've probably been around this type of person too. They might not accuse you openly of sinning, but you can tell from their attitude that they think you might be sinning. Such people are miserable to be around.

Now let's move on to Job's wife. What kind of woman was she? Was she a godly woman of the sort whose seed would want to tread down the seed of the serpent? Or was she an ungodly woman who produced children of the seed of the serpent? I say the latter since she sided with Satan and advised God to curse God and die. And yes, there was something wrong with Job's children. Yes, they were of the seed of the serpent since their mother was. But what was the problem? We're in deep territory here involving views that remain controversial.

The problem again was Job. Spiritually, the "fallen woman" cannot redeem herself completely. She must be joined to an unfallen male who provides her spiritual covering the way Boaz provided Ruth a spiritual covering. Ruth came from a cursed tribe and converted to the worship of the One True God; and then Boaz covered her. There are examples in the New Testament where Jesus rescues "fallen women" -- not by marrying them and having sex with them but by providing them the proper spiritual covering.

I say Job failed to "cleave" to his wife according to the commandment. Note please that Eve was not told to cleave to Adam. She remained under the curse and had produced children under that curse. Job was right, in a way, to be uncomfortable about his children. I say he erred by failing to love his wife. If he had loved her more fully, she would have changed and been converted herself.

Few people notice that neither Satan nor Job's wife is mentioned at the end of the book. Why the omission? It's a glaring omission to me that demands an answer. My answer is that Job did cleave to his wife following his revelation from God -- he loved her as a man should love his wife -- and the two became one -- neither male nor female -- spiritually one although you could say they had two physical bodies. Satan, the male personification of trouble, is also not worth mentioning at the end since the "satanic" in Job had been defeated and changed, transmuted, etc.

Now out of this newly blessed union, we see Job's children also reborn. (I believe in reincarnation, so it presents no problem for me.) There is no hint of Job worrying about them needlessly or of offering sacrifices on their behalf. What folly is it anyway to offer sacrifices to God for the sins of others? If Job's sons had sinned, Job couldn't solve that through burnt sacrifices. They would have needed to repent before being forgiven. Job had been falling into thinking God could be placated by animal sacrifices -- and it didn't matter who offered them. Job's vision of God in the beginning was that God was angry and vengeful -- and enjoyed seeing animals being killed. Job thought maybe if he gave God enjoyment by killing animals, God would spare his children just in case they had sinned. Thank goodness, all that goes away at the end.
Good post!
 

FollowHim

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Had he known Christ he wouldn't have argued his righteousness for some 30 chapters.
The Father declared Job righteous.
But some regard this as a lie, and Job is about Job discovering he is actually a sinner in need of something more.

I would suggest Jobs faith in God, which was tested, made him righteous, but Satan said this faith was only because God blessed him.
In the end Job was suggesting he deserved good treatment, which was wrong. Did Job sin in this?

6 Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes
Job 42:6

He sinned and repented. He grew in knowledge of God and His intentions. We love Him despite the suffering and difficulties in this sinful world we experience because we understand it provides us with a chance of knowing Him and not being like chaff blowing in the wind soon to be burnt up.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Romans 3:10 KJV
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

But you will, of course, need to look into how it is that God called men righteous, if none are righteous. It's a dialectic. And it can only be reconciled if the righteousness of men and the righteousness of God are different things. And I think Paul understood it quite well.

Men can learn righteousness and grow in righteousness and the scriptures are good for training us in humility, fear of the Lord and righteousness. But the righteousness of God is in holiness. We cant grow in holiness. There is only One who is holy. And one must be in Him to be holy/without sin. Dont ask me how to be in Him because I dont know. He has to take you there or you will never be there.

But the good news is...God accepts righteous men who fear Him and are humble. It's good news because it's all we can do and learn to do and grow in. He will make a place for the righteous on earth.
 
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Waiting on him

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We are all born into this world not to follow some set of rules that allows God to judge us as righteous. We are born in this world to learn how to love. The rules or laws are there to guide us if we want to do the loving thing but lack discernment in some situations. Obeying the rules isn't enough to make us loving creatures. They are attempts to guide us.

I do not believe God takes enjoyment in seeing anyone suffer -- saint or sinner. I do not believe God automatically gives wealth and success to the righteous. I believe God loves everyone and wishes the best for all mankind. The problems lie with mankind. Job worried about this too, I think. Was his wealth the result of his being righteous? Could he "buy" God that way? Can we "buy" God that way today? Can we, without love in our hearts, contrive in our hearts how to get wealth and success from God by keeping a set of rules in order to please Him? Can man outwit God like that? I say no because God would like to see everyone wealthy and successful. I insist on this because God's Perfection must be defended in my mind.

We live however in an imperfect world where people have not yet learned how to live with each other peacefully and lovingly. Bad things will happen then. Sometimes we can invite bad things to happen too. Job to a certain extent invited disaster with his great wealth. One verse suggests he had so much livestock, it was "breaking out" of the pastures. Such wealth invites violence from the less fortunate. The people who raided Job's flocks and killed his children were not loving to be sure -- but ask what had Job even done for the poor? Anything? I think not. I think he lavished part of his wealth on his children since he saw them as extensions of himself while neglecting the poor. He failed to love his neighbors, showing too much preference to his family.

Compare that attitude to the rich man in Gehinnom who wanted Lazarus to suffer so he could have a drop of water for his tongue. How selfish. And how selfish too was his request about his brothers. What about the rest of the world? He didn't care the least bit about non-family when he was alive, showing no compassion for Lazarus; and he had the same attitude in Gehinnom. There is only solution for that kind of recalcitrance -- burning it away the way a tree needs to be pruned of its dead wood. The fire in Gehinnom is, of course, the Flames of Love; but admittedly those who cling to their sins experience them as anguish. Abraham loved that rich man. That's why Abraham was there. He was trying to explain things but the rich man wasn't willing to hear him -- he was still concerned about "me and mine."

Let me add another point of controversy as if I may not have been controversial enough already. I do not read the book of Job as being a story about a "real person" who lived sometime in the past. I read it as a book of prophecy about Israel. The continuing problem with the Jews is how they keep falling from time to time into self-righteousness, seeing themselves as superior, etc. Moses told Israel they were supposed to act as a nation of priests for all the world, for all the other nations; and some Jews still do do this even today. But the trap is always there when vanity seems to overcome them and they believe they are "special" because of who their ancestors were. They fail to see that God wants the whole world to become "children of Abraham" according to the Spirit.

Job fell into that trap in the beginning of the book. His sacrificing for his "family" accomplished little or nothing. The full purpose of Israel remains to be played out -- the end of the prophecy in the book of Job remains to be fulfilled. Jew and Gentile will enter the kingdom together -- as shown by Job's intercession for his Gentile friends who had sinned, who had needed intercession. We see how Jew and Gentile began entering the kingdom shortly after the Pentecost in the Upper Room; but I think a fuller fulfillment remains, one which will convert the entire world into God's kingdom where everyone lives in peace and love, and everyone is blessed.
Jesus didn't have a place too lay His head
 

Waiting on him

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But you will, of course, need to look into how it is that God called men righteous, if none are righteous. It's a dialectic. And it can only be reconciled if the righteousness of men and the righteousness of God are different things. And I think Paul understood it quite well.
I believe the The righteousness of Christ can only be seen after He has given us an understanding as to how our righteousness is only a mental Ascent.
 
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Giuliano

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Few also seem to notice exactly when Satan shows up in the Bible. People have all kinds of ideas; but some simple research shows Satan doesn't show up except for the saintly who are ready to face a certain test. I can give my idea.

Satan has no standing in the Third Heaven unless it serves a purpose for one of God's saints. Satan has been thrown out of the Third Heaven and cannot stand there unless a saint makes it possible. If one of God's children wants (unconsciously even) for Satan to stand before the Throne to accuse him, Satan can then rise and stand there.

Remember too that God will not permit this test unless He's sure the saint can and will be exonerated. When the saint is ready to face his interior doubts and questions, Satan will show up and be allowed to accuse him before the Throne. God expects it. God doesn't mind since He knows the saint can pass the test and expects him to. Thus we see God pointing out Job to Satan. Satan doesn't suggest it, God does. Job has suffered enough from his inner doubts and suspicions. It's time for Job to learn that God is perfectly Love. The road to learning that can be rocky, the way the prodigal son learned that his father genuinely loved him the hard way.

When Paul says our struggle is against wickedness in high places, we should remember we could be contributing to that ourselves. We shouldn't try to separate the inner evil in ourselves from the evil we want to perceive in Satan. Satan has zero power in this world unless man gives it to him. Dominion over the earth was given to man and remains man's. The real struggle then is the inner struggle.

God was right to give dominion over the earth to man. It is still playing out; but in the end, everyone will see God did not make a mistake in the matter. We can also see what Satan does as a favor at times. Was he right when he pointed out that Joshua the High Priest had a dirty garment? He was. Joshua was also ready to repent of his sin and did when it was pointed out. Satan pointed out the problem, Joshua repented, and God provided the solution. The struggle against the seed of the serpent was involved there too since Joshua's sons had married wives they ought not to have; and thus their children would have been children of the serpent. The Aaronic priesthood was under attack, and Joshua had dithered and done nothing until Satan accused him and he acknowledged his error.

Do not think, even for a second, that God gives Satan power over anyone without that person's being complicit. It doesn't happen although some cases are hard to understand. Dominion was given to man; and the belief that Satan has power of his own or that God gives him power to afflict people contradicts (1) the Goodness of God, and (2) the doctrine that man was given dominion. Satan would like people to believe otherwise, but dominion over the earth is man's. We are all free to invoke the angelic or the demonic. God will permit the demonic if that is what we ask for and invoke.
 

Waiting on him

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I would have too agree, Paul was abased just as Job was, this in my opinion is the conduit that leads to the seeing of Christ
 
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Waiting on him

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Few also seem to notice exactly when Satan shows up in the Bible. People have all kinds of ideas; but some simple research shows Satan doesn't show up except for the saintly who are ready to face a certain test. I can give my idea.

Satan has no standing in the Third Heaven unless it serves a purpose for one of God's saints. Satan has been thrown out of the Third Heaven and cannot stand there unless a saint makes it possible. If one of God's children wants (unconsciously even) for Satan to stand before the Throne to accuse him, Satan can then rise and stand there.

Remember too that God will not permit this test unless He's sure the saint can and will be exonerated. When the saint is ready to face his interior doubts and questions, Satan will show up and be allowed to accuse him before the Throne. God expects it. God doesn't mind since He knows the saint can pass the test and expects him to. Thus we see God pointing out Job to Satan. Satan doesn't suggest it, God does. Job has suffered enough from his inner doubts and suspicions. It's time for Job to learn that God is perfectly Love. The road to learning that can be rocky, the way the prodigal son learned that his father genuinely loved him the hard way.

When Paul says our struggle is against wickedness in high places, we should remember we could be contributing to that ourselves. We shouldn't try to separate the inner evil in ourselves from the evil we want to perceive in Satan. Satan has zero power in this world unless man gives it to him. Dominion over the earth was given to man and remains man's. The real struggle then is the inner struggle.

God was right to give dominion over the earth to man. It is still playing out; but in the end, everyone will see God did not make a mistake in the matter. We can also see what Satan does as a favor at times. Was he right when he pointed out that Joshua the High Priest had a dirty garment? He was. Joshua was also ready to repent of his sin and did when it was pointed out. Satan pointed out the problem, Joshua repented, and God provided the solution. The struggle against the seed of the serpent was involved there too since Joshua's sons had married wives they ought not to have; and thus their children would have been children of the serpent. The Aaronic priesthood was under attack, and Joshua had dithered and done nothing until Satan accused him and he acknowledged his error.

Do not think, even for a second, that God gives Satan power over anyone without that person's being complicit. It doesn't happen although some cases are hard to understand. Dominion was given to man; and the belief that Satan has power of his own or that God gives him power to afflict people contradicts (1) the Goodness of God, and (2) the doctrine that man was given dominion. Satan would like people to believe otherwise, but dominion over the earth is man's. We are all free to invoke the angelic or the demonic. God will permit the demonic if that is what we ask for and invoke.
I think you've got the nail on the head, Satan is that heady me that's once removed God says come up here.
 
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Waiting on him

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Acts 9:5 KJV
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
 

Giuliano

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I'm not following you here.
Even tithing mint may be a good thing if we catch on why we're doing it. If we do it just to obey a rule, we've missed something. Giving to others can make us happy. Being righteous is a good start, but it should end with our enjoying doing the loving thing. God wants to see us enjoying life, not doing things merely because He says so. God is pleased with us when He sees us loving each other. That is what He wants from us.

Matthew 5:20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 23:23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
 

Giuliano

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The Father declared Job righteous.
But some regard this as a lie, and Job is about Job discovering he is actually a sinner in need of something more.

I would suggest Jobs faith in God, which was tested, made him righteous, but Satan said this faith was only because God blessed him.
In the end Job was suggesting he deserved good treatment, which was wrong. Did Job sin in this?

6 Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes
Job 42:6

He sinned and repented. He grew in knowledge of God and His intentions. We love Him despite the suffering and difficulties in this sinful world we experience because we understand it provides us with a chance of knowing Him and not being like chaff blowing in the wind soon to be burnt up.
"Repent" may not be right word in English. The word can also mean to "take comfort."

Job had been wondering if life was over after the physical body (dust and ashes) dies. He could be saying, "I take comfort in the dust and ashes."
 

Episkopos

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I believe the The righteousness of Christ can only be seen after He has given us an understanding as to how our righteousness is only a mental Ascent.


An interesting choice of words...mental ascent. Many believe they have the righteousness of Christ as a raising up of themselves in the imagination of the mind...or mental ascent. So then a heightened self-righteousness.
 
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Giuliano

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I think you've got the nail on the head, Satan is that heady me that's once removed God says come up here.
Three incidents come to mind: Abraham and Isaac going up the mountain and leaving others below. Moses going up to the top of a moutain, Joshua up about half way and some others up but not so far up. Then we have Jesus taking three of his disciples up a mountain with nine left behind. I think in all three cases God was able to purify people because they were ready to have the "heady me" dealt with.
 

charity

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The Greek Septuagint has:

8 Wonder has seized true men on account of me; transgressor arose against the just*. 9 How then is the faithful to hold on his own way, and him that is pure of hands take courage?​

In other words, if the just suffers like a transgressor what is the point of being faithful or pure of hands?

_____
* The Greek is somewhat vague here. It can also be translated as "the just has been rebelled against as if he was a transgressor"
Hello @icxn,

If you referred to this online, would you please supply the link, for when I have looked at the Septuagint online in more than one location, this is not what I have found, but Job 17:8-9 has been translated in this way:-

8 Wonder has seized true men upon this; and let the just rise up against the transgressor.
9 But let the faithful hold on his own way, and let him that is pure of hands take courage.

* I do not agree with your your own words of interpretation either (quote):-
'In other words, if the just suffers like a transgressor
what is the point of being faithful or pure of hands?'


In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

icxn

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Hello @icxn,

If you referred to this online, would you please supply the link, for when I have looked at the Septuagint online in more than one location, this is not what I have found, but Job 17:8-9 has been translated in this way:-
I was going by the (or rather a) Greek text and offered my translation based on a commentary by Saint John Chrysostom. He seems to be using a slightly different text. The verb rise up is in passive voice instead of ευκτική (expressing a wish), which is what the official Greek text goes by (and the translation you quoted). The word that is translated as a transgressor can accomodate both meanings "a transgressor" or "as a transgressor." The ευκτική form of the verb implies the first meaning, while the passive the latter. Verse 9 can be understood as a question or as a wish.

Either way the meaning is only slightly altered. If the first translation states the problem, the latter form offers the solution in the form of a wish (prayer), i.e. may the just man rise up (be vindicated) over the transgressor so that the faithful and the pure of hands persevere in their way and not be discouraged by what the just man suffers.
 

Taken

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Why these 4 different words here?
Job 17:8-9:
The virtuous are horrified when they see me.
The innocent rise up against the ungodly.
The righteous keep moving forward,
And those with clean hands become stronger and stronger.

We hear and "believe" without Seeing.
We "understand" once we "accept" our belief (in our hearts).
We "experience" (by Seeing the results), of unseen heartfelt belief.

I would say...
* the virtuous, at first find Death and Destruction at the hand of God...horrific.
(Not yet understood, nothing can be Made anew without death of the natural)
* the rising up, (beginning hearing)
* the righteous, (staying on the Lords path)
* the clean hands, (leads to strength), washed in Jesus blood, indwelt with Gods POWER.

Glory to God,
Taken