Job 17

[stunnedbygrace]

Why these 4 different words here?
Job 17:8-9:
The virtuous are horrified when they see me.
The innocent rise up against the ungodly.
The righteous keep moving forward,
And those with clean hands become stronger and stronger.

 

[Marymog]

Why these 4 different words here?
Job 17:8-9:
The virtuous are horrified when they see me.
The innocent rise up against the ungodly.
The righteous keep moving forward,
And those with clean hands become stronger and stronger.

Hmmmm......not sure. What do you think?

Bible Study Mary

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well...I at first had suspicion that it was describing different types of people, but...I dont know, really. I wanted the thoughts of others.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Why these 4 different words here?
Job 17:8-9:
The virtuous are horrified when they see me.
The innocent rise up against the ungodly.
The righteous keep moving forward,
And those with clean hands become stronger and stronger.

Perhaps they believed he must be evil to appear so cursed.

 

[Giuliano]

Hebrew poetry often takes up a idea and expresses it two (or more) ways. I read it as not describing four distinctly different types of people but of four descriptions of a certain type.

 

[Nancy]

Why these 4 different words here?
virtuous:
The virtuous are horrified when they see me.
The innocent rise up against the ungodly.
The righteous keep moving forward,
And those with clean hands become stronger and stronger.

"The virtuous are horrified when they see me."

This say's to me that the "righteous" friends and neighbors around Job, always knew him to be a righteous man but, when seeing the things happening to him, think he sinned and God is punishing him.

"The innocent rise up against the ungodly."

Maybe this is referring to Job's "so called" friends?

Several versions have "hypocrites" in the place of "ungodly" so, even though his "friends" were outwardly pious, they lacked love. (Pharisees are still doing that to this day, ha!) No charity or love for a brother in God...just accusations. They were not sinless yet acted like they were above Job and were so certain Job sinned against God.

"The righteous keep moving forward, And those with clean hands become stronger and stronger."

Maybe this means that Job, remaining faithful to God, became stronger and bolder towards his accusers?
Refusing to rail against God.

JMO

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm stuck in the book of Job for some reason. Earlier I was reading how Job was saying they were frightened when they looked at him, and he said, (paraphrasing here) why are you afraid when you see me? Have I ever asked you for anything? Kind of like...have I been a burden to you in any way? And it seemed to me like Job was saying they were trying to blame him for what was happening to him when he hadn't done anything wrong. But if they didnt blame him, it would be too scary to them and would mean they'd have to admit they weren't the ones in control of their lives and their fortunes. So they almost had to blame him. Because they couldn't stomach the thought of God letting these things befall Job unless he had done something wrong.

But Job said it was Gods hand. But it says he didnt sin with his mouth by saying this. It says he didnt blame God. But he definitely saw it was God doing it. I guess you could say, no, it was satan doing it, but God permitted it, and I think Job saw that so it was God to him, not satan...

 

[Giuliano]

I'm stuck in the book of Job for some reason. Earlier I was reading how Job was saying they were frightened when they looked at him, and he said, (paraphrasing here) why are you afraid when you see me? Have I ever asked you for anything? Kind of like...have I been a burden to you in any way? And it seemed to me like Job was saying they were trying to blame him for what was happening to him when he hadn't done anything wrong. But if they didnt blame him, it would be too scary to them and would mean they'd have to admit they weren't the ones in control of their lives and their fortunes. So they almost had to blame him. Because they couldn't stomach the thought of God letting these things befall Job unless he had done something wrong.

But Job said it was Gods hand. But it says he didnt sin with his mouth by saying this. It says he didnt blame God. But he definitely saw it was God doing it. I guess you could say, no, it was satan doing it, but God permitted it, and I think Job saw that so it was God to him, not satan...

I never studied the speeches of the three friends carefully; but I believe each of them represents a mistaken school of thought. (Maimonides said so.) Thus they begin with biases that they used to justify themselves or that made them comfortable believing.

They have no evidence of wrong doing on the part of Job but seem bent on saying he must have sinned. They are not dealing with Job, life or reality. They are bending things to justify the beliefs which make them feel safe or happy. I think they did care about Job but they cared about their religious ideas more. That seems relevant to us today when we can observe how callous Christians can be.

Going back to the beginning of the book, we find Job has a similar problem more or less. He has no evidence that his children have sinned but still imagines maybe they did. He is imagining evil when none exists. Is it not just and fair then in a way when his friends do the same thing to him?

He has fears based on nothing. He has inner doubts about God's goodness although he doesn't express them verbally. This doubting of God's Perfect Goodness is a satanic thought, another accusation based on nothing. God protected Job for a long time against his inner doubts and thoughts by putting a hedge around him. It was Job who gave Satan a foothold with such impure thoughts; but God protected him knowing Job wasn't ready to face his inner doubts and fears. (God does not permit us to be tested unless He knows we can pass it.)

When Job was strong enough to pass the test, the time came to set his mind at ease. The test was not to prove anything to God. Rather it was for Job to prove something to himself. So I see it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He has fears based on nothing. He has inner doubts about God's goodness although he doesn't express them verbally.

Hmm...fearing that your children could be sinning in their hearts without knowing it is a fear based on nothing? I would rather think it's a fear based on the man seeing how his OWN heart can be so deceitful and obfuscating and fearing it in his children too.

It's a very difficult book.

 

[Episkopos]

In the book of Job we see how mankind perceives God's actions. Mostly wrong. And a lot of self-justification. But there is another speaker...Elihu...and he ends up being the voice of God. To me that is what the book is about...how God can speak to us through others...but to us it is just another voice. At the end God's voice takes over Elihu's...because Elihu IS the voice (oracle) of God. That's the shocker.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, I stopped last night right where elihu began to speak and want to get back to it. But this morning i never quite got back to it because i saw this elsewhere: all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. How many times have i read that??? And it has always been so that God does whatever He pleases. The earth is His. I mean, the cattle on a thousand hills are His, so of course the people are also His, to do with as He pleases. But...we dont believe it...but Job believed it. He never said his life was under satan's control. He said GOD has given and GOD has taken away. And it was true. Because it was GOD who gave the permission to satan to sift Job. It is true that satans motivation is evil, but does that really matter since the darkness can never overcome the light?

Do disciples pray that Gods will be done on earth because Gods will is not done on earth yet? Or always? Or are they praying, with this, ..a submission, an obedience of faith? Are they, with the prayer, reminding themselves that they have a will and desires but that their Lord has been given all authority on earth and they BELIEVE this, so...are they really saying, Your will, not mine?

 

[Giuliano]

Hmm...fearing that your children could be sinning in their hearts without knowing it is a fear based on nothing? I would rather think it's a fear based on the man seeing how his OWN heart can be so deceitful and obfuscating and fearing it in his children too.

It's a very difficult book.

Let me make it more difficult. Job imagined maybe his children were sinning so offered sacrifices. Did they work? His children got killed. I'd say his sacrifices were vain. Imagining evil where none exists is what Eve did.

At the end however, God tells him to sacrifice on behalf of his three friends -- who had sinned -- and then his sacrifices were acceptable.

 

[Giuliano]

In the book of Job we see how mankind perceive God's actions. Mostly wrong. And a lot of self-justification. But there is another speaker...Elihu...and he ends up being the voice of God. To me that is what the book is about...how God can speak to us through others...but to us it is just another voice. At the end God's voice takes over Elihu's...because Elihu IS the voice (oracle) of God. That's the shocker.

Elihu is a variant spelling of Elijah, of course. Elijah comes first and prepares Job for the coming of the LORD. You might say faith came to Job by hearing of the Word spoken through Elihu.

Job 33:23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

And then Pentecost! I realize other people may not see it that way; but I see the end of the book as Pentecostal.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hi giuliano. I'm not able to take my mind wherever yours is. I'm so sorry. I'm in an odd place right now and all I can see is that you are doing the same thing to Job that his friends did and are blaming what happened to him as a curse for his sin rather than a great blessing, in order to bring him to seeing God and the struggle of submission to the blessing God is willing for Job to receive ...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Because I can say by my own experience, when God allowed all worldly comforts to cease from Jobs life, it did not feel like any kind of blessing. It felt like God was beating the crap out of him and hated him. And it is a great struggle to say, your will be done, when God seems very cruel and unceasing. And then to have his friends blame him as they did, on top of Gods hand being so heavy, that might be even the cruelest thing.

 

[Episkopos]

Because I can say by my own experience, when God allowed all worldly comforts to cease from Jobs life, it did not feel like any kind of blessing. It felt like God was beating the crap out of him and hated him. And it is a great struggle to say, your will be done, when God seems very cruel and unceasing. And then to have his friends blame him as they did, on top of Gods hand being so heavy, that might be even the cruelest thing.

Yet He breaks us so that He can put us back together in a better way...a way that works for further growth in Him.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Because I can say by my own experience, when God allowed all worldly comforts to cease from Jobs life, it did not feel like any kind of blessing. It felt like God was beating the crap out of him and hated him. And it is a great struggle to say, your will be done, when God seems very cruel and unceasing. And then to have his friends blame him as they did, on top of Gods hand being so heavy, that might be even the cruelest thing.

Job 19:8-12 He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths. [9] He hath stripped me of my glory (1 Peter 1:24), (1 Peter 5:4), and taken the crown from my head. (1 Corinthians 9:25) 10] He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree. (Job 14:18-19) 11] He hath also kindled his wrath against me, and he counteth me unto him as one of his enemies. [12] His troops come together, and raise up their way against me, and encamp round about my tabernacle.

how “His troops come together ...and encamp round about my tabernacle.”

 

[APAK]

Why these 4 different words here?
Job 17:8-9:
The virtuous are horrified when they see me.
The innocent rise up against the ungodly.
The righteous keep moving forward,
And those with clean hands become stronger and stronger.

I believe this area of scripture is not only about Job's reaction to those he knew, either personally or in general of people. It also speaks to what our Creator knows of other people when one of his is placed in distress or under tribulation. It is fitting for many these days indeed to reflect upon.

Breaking it down then...
Some men, some truly in faith and also the fakers, will see Job's condition and become astonished and horrified as to the ways of God dealing with this 'good' man or good men in general. They do not know the depths, the reasoning as to why Job is being placed under so much stress, and they also realize it all came from God. They also see Job and maybe others in the same predicament as they always overcome, and never lose faith in their maker and his mysterious ways. As if to say, how could our God do such a thing to this innocent man Job, and evil men prosper and get away with murder and see no tribulation. Why does God work this way?

After the trials befallen Job he knows the hypocrites, his so-called close friends and the pretenders of faith. His intact and innocence soon 'rises' up in thought, words and even action against these evil pretenders that claimed they were his friends. This is one of the main 'take-aways' from Job. These tests and trials not only reinforce Job's faith in God to continue on, it also has the effect of knowing who is still standing with him when the chips are down. And then the immediate reaction and internal searing of consciences; his true enemies. We might know of some people like this today.

So the last part means, Job and others like him, those that endure God's testings, are considered righteous and get stronger in faith after each trial. And whatever they do they do more in faith for God in all their daily lives and actions. Their hands are thus 'clean.' The hypocrites and pretenders continue to fool themselves and will never understand or be brought to the knowledge of God's ways.

Blessings,

APAK

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes. It is for blessing, epi. I'm not sure any person can explain that to another though. It might even be the exact wrong thing to try to do. I mean, if someone lost all their children in a tornado, would it be the best thing for you to say to the person, God is breaking you so He can bless you? Or if someone was in severe physical pain that was unceasing, should you say, cheer up, God is doing great things for you! I know you shouldn't tell the person Gods punishing you because you've sinned and made Him angry, but maybe you shouldn't do anything except weep with them and hug them, at least until they themselves begin to understand...

 

[APAK]

Yes. It is for blessing, epi. I'm not sure any person can explain that to another though. It might even be the exact wrong thing to try to do. I mean, if someone lost all their children in a tornado, would it be the best thing for you to say to the person, God is breaking you so He can bless you? Or if someone was in severe physical pain that was unceasing, should you say, cheer up, God is doing great things for you! I know you shouldn't tell the person Gods punishing you because you've sinned and made Him angry, but maybe you shouldn't do anything except weep with them and hug them, at least until they themselves begin to understand...

Those in faith especially will do what you said at the end of your response, console them and realize there is a purpose of God in all this ordeal and disaster... I think though this section of scripture is to discern who is really the consoling heart in truth and love and those that console with their lips and not their hearts....I hope all is well...//to ....APAK