I'm saying that such a self-serving comment won't lead your readers to believe it is true and therefore a reason to accept your argument, so anyone who nevertheless throws it in is either delusional or egotistical -- and I gave you the benefit of the doubt on the delusional option. (Maybe I was too hasty there . . .)
John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?
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I'm saying that such a self-serving comment won't lead your readers to believe it is true and therefore a reason to accept your argument, so anyone who nevertheless throws it in is either delusional or egotistical -- and I gave you the benefit of the doubt on the delusional option. (Maybe I was too hasty there . . .)
True Faith
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but it is not self serving at all...
I have noticed that you have avoided the question contained in my comment though...
Okay, let's test that. I contend that I know as much about the Trinity as you do. Is this a self-serving comment by me, or do you accept its truth?
True Faith
Active Member
no it is not a self serving comment, just stating that you know just as much as I do...
So whose will did God Himself come down from heaven to do, if not his own???
Since we are in agreement that we both know the trinity equally, the question should be easy for you to answer..
True Faith
Active Member
We will await your answer to the question... just remember that the Doctrine of the Trinity says that Jesus is God the Son, meaning God Himself and that it states that God Himself took on Humanity and not the Son as the Father is Also God Himself...
So your answer should reflect how it is possible for God to lie... Since the question is formulated in a way that exposes the lie of the Trinity and shows the contradiction of it...
So, if you decide to try and explain how Jesus is God, you are not answering the question because we both already know what the Trinity claims that Jesus is God himself. There is no need for explaining how Jesus is God, but you have to explain how it is possible for God to lie...
A person who believes that Jesus is God Himself, is making the claim that it is possible for God to tell a because Jesus, whom the Doctrine of the Trinity says is God Himself, said that he did not come to do his own will but the will of someone else...
John 6:38 "For I have come down from Heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him that sent me."
so you have already established that you believe that Jesus is God Himself...
My comment is just as self-serving as yours. But since you accept its truth, I will respond: Jesus -- having "emptied himself" of his divinity for the time he walked the earth in the flesh, Philippians 2:6-8-- was doing God's will.
True Faith
Active Member
Good one.. but completely destroys your doctrine... if he emptied his divinity then there is no way he is God Himself... Yet you claim that God, who is and always was a divine being, became flesh.... Hence "God took Humanity to himself."
You just separated Jesus from being God..
The essence of God is divine... why separate the essence of God from God Himself??...
I said "for the time he walked the earth in the flesh" -- not thereafter (or prior). The separation lasted around 33 years.
True Faith
Active Member
one more thing... I said to explain how God is capable of lying and not to try and explain how you believe Jesus is God... which is exactly what you are doing...
Are you not paying attention to the question or the doctrine of the Trinity???
True Faith
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God doesn't lie. I never claimed otherwise. What have I said thus far that would necessarily paint God as a liar?
True Faith
Active Member
Then Since you claim that Jesus is God Himself, and you say that "God Does not lie" then you , by your claims and beliefs, call God a liar because he said "For I have come down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him that sent me." So why do you call God Himself a liar?
I already answered that. For around a third of a century, some two millenia ago, Jesus' had emptied himself of his divinity, such that the statement "For I have come down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him that sent me" was a true statement. It was true if Jesus had said it (as the gospel records). It was true if God the Father had said it. It was true if you or I had said it. It was just plain true. Nobody is a liar here.
True Faith
Active Member
But yet no where in scripture does it state that Jesus stripped himself of his divinity... Phillippians 2:6-8 does not state that Jesus stripped his divinity.. doesn't even imply it...
And yes, you call God Himself a liar...
True Faith
Active Member
Your problem is that you are trying to justify calling God Himself a liar by trying to explain how Jesus is God Himself without being God Himself...
The word was God Himself... The Word became flesh, God Himself became Flesh... the Word dwelt among us, God Himself dwelt among us..
Whose will did God Himself come down from heaven to do, if not his own???
Pay attention to your own doctrine and stop removing Jesus from being God Himself...
True Faith
Active Member
You said you knew the trinity yet you show that you do not know the meaning behind it...
"Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself."
Even the Creed which explains exactly the Trinity claims that Jesus would be God Himself... Divinity or not, Jesus is God Himself...
Let's go a bit further shale we...
"And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord."
Show me where it states that you can say "God the Son did the will of God the Father".
"For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.
What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.
The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.
Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.
Thus, the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.
Thus, the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord."
that is the doctrine of the Trinity and that is where you get "The Father is not the Son, The Son is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. and God is the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit"
So, whose will did God Himself come down from heaven to do, if not his own?
I am not removing the Son (you don't mind if I use "Son" rather than "Jesus" here, do you? "Jesus" is the human name given to Him upon becoming incarnate) from being God equally with the Father and Holy Spirit -- except insofar as he "emptied himself" in the manner noted by Paul's letter to the Philippians. The sense in which he was still God while here in the flesh is thus limited. There is no other reasonable way to construe Paul's words.
Look at it this way. Let's think of the continuum of eternity in linear fashion, and call time t(I) the moment of the Incarnation and time t(A) the moment of the Ascension. A moment before t(I) the Son and the Father, equally God since the beginning of time, were united in will that the Incarnation occur and that Jesus' earthly ministry begin. At that fraction of a millisecond before t(I), the triune God's will was in unison -- and in that moment the triune God, through the Son who is God with the Father and Holy Spirit, was about to come down from heaven to do God's own will. Between t(I) and t(A), the "emptied," incarnate God-become-man was capable of a will of his own separate from God's will. (For example, he could say "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass me by; still, your will, not mine, be done.")
So when, as you aptly put it, "God Himself became Flesh... the Word dwelt among us, God Himself dwelt among us" at t(I), there were two possibly conflicting wills, the Father's and the incarnate, emptied Son's. Not before t(I). And not after t(A).
So God -- the triune God -- did come down in the flesh to do what you call "his own" will (I'll go along and use the singular "his" rather than "their" here, to note the triune God as a single God in three persons, in accordance with conventional Trinitarian notions).
Why ask me to show you something I did not say?
Why pretend I used Rev 1:1 to establish a lie?
You are making false accusations without a shred of evidence of me saying such things.
True Faith
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