John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Rich R @APAK @tigger 2 @JohnPaul @Keiw

Jesus being God is consistent Apostolic testimony.

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours by the righteousness of the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

The Apostle Jesus (Hebrews 3:1) calls Jesus the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) by saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20) thus declaring Himself eternal, and the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) is exclusively eternal; therefore, Jesus declares Himself the One True God, YHWH!

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT JESUS WAS CREATED.

Jesus is YHWH God according to consistent Apostolic testimony.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).

 

[Jack]

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT JESUS WAS CREATED.

That's a FACT!

 

[APAK]

@Aunty Jane @Rich R @APAK @tigger 2 @JohnPaul @Keiw

Jesus being God is consistent Apostolic testimony.

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours by the righteousness of the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

The Apostle Jesus (Hebrews 3:1) calls Jesus the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) by saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20) thus declaring Himself eternal, and the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) is exclusively eternal; therefore, Jesus declares Himself the One True God, YHWH!

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT JESUS WAS CREATED.

Jesus is YHWH God according to consistent Apostolic testimony.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).

What do you think begotten from the word beget means Kermos, incarnation?...LOL. And then this imaginary process found in your doctrine, of non-creation, triggers and produces a Jesus hypostasis union as a Jesus God-man of dual natures, and then at some point in time a Kenosis process is triggered that transforms Jesus yet again into a type of hybrid human natured of only a divine person...LOL

This is what you believe in when you read in scripture that Jesus was begotten. You believe that there were at least two impossible processes triggered and another later by the spirit of the Father. I don't think he knew he would be doing all this frankly to create his Son.

I read the same words in scripture to mean clearly that Jesus was created by his Father's holy Spirit. Simple, uncomplicated and scriptural.

Why did the Trinitarians invent a special case, new meaning for the simple word beget or begotten for scripture and regarding the Son of the Almighty? It is because they wanted Jesus to be much more that a human man and human person. They want him as a superman like a Greek or Roman god.

Get the picture now Kermos?!
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This is the meaning of begotten whether it is used in scripture or not...this is NO reason to change a meaning that has been the same for thousands of years, except if you adhere to another and different doctrine of the true Jesus.
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'According to Collins English Dictionary and the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, the word begotten is the past participle of the word beget, which means to have a child or to cause something to happen or be created.'

What Does Begotten Mean? | The Word Counter

 

[Rich R]

Amen! Jesus is the Word / God Who became flesh!

By what authority to you equate Jesus is the word in John 1:14? John 1:1? If so, then by what authority do you equate Jesus with the word in John 1:1? You can't assign one word for another in one verse by doing the same in some other verse.

Was Jesus not a perfect image of God? Sure he was. Please note that there is a difference between the image of something and the thing of which it is the image. The image of you in your mirror, is a perfect representation of you, but it is not really you. Jesus had the same Father and the same God as all born from above believers. Jesus, unlike the rest of us, always did his Father's will. He only spoke and did what his Father/God told him to speak and say. He did nothing on his own.

Considering all of that (and more), could you imagine that maybe that is why John 1:14 says the word became flesh, especially when John's express purpose in writing was to show Jesus was the son of God and the Chris?. I assume you see that a son can in no wise be his own father, thereby making two distinct people.

If you can see that then there is no need for you to ignore the clear deceleration by both Jesus and Paul that the Father is the only true God (John 17:3, 1 Cor 8:6). Nor do you have to explain why God is not greater and knows more then Jesus (John 14:28, Mark 13:32). You don't have to explain why God does not have a split personality despite the fact that He and Jesus have different wills (Luk 22:42). You no longer would have to explain how one part of God can be subject and put under another part of God (1 Cor 15:28). You would not have to explain how God grew in wisdom (Luk 2:52). No longer would you have to wonder how God was made lower than the angels (Heb 2:9). You would no longer have to explain how God can be tempted just like the rest of us (Mark 4:1, Heb 4:15) when the scriptures expressly declare that God can not be tempted (James 1:13). You would no longer have to ponder which god gave God His power (Matt 28:18).

There is much more, but I'll just leave you with these two final questions. Why is Jesus called the son of God some 35 times in the NT, whereas he is never called God the Son? Given "God the Son" is not in the actual scriptures, from whence did that phrase arise?

 

[Rich R]

That's a FACT!

Other than Adam, what other man was created? You weren't. You were born form Adam's seed. By the way, so was Jesus!

Does not being created therefore make us all God?

 

[Kermos]

That's a FACT!

That's a fact Jack!

Not only is there no scripture that states Jesus was created, but the word of God says that Jesus Christ is the everlasting One True God.

The Apostle Jesus (Hebrews 3:1) calls Jesus the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) by saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20) thus declaring Himself eternal, and the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) is exclusively eternal; therefore, Jesus declares Himself the One True God, YHWH!

 

[Kermos]

Other than Adam, what other man was created? You weren't. You were born form Adam's seed. By the way, so was Jesus!

Does not being created therefore make us all God?

"I formed you in the womb" (Jeremiah 1:5) says the Word of God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14).

Rich R, do not be deceived, @Jack was formed in his mother's womb by God. Every person born is formed by God.

You are a LIAR.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).

 

[Rich R]

"I formed you in the womb" (Jeremiah 1:5) says the Word of God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14).

Rich R, do not be deceived, @Jack was formed in his mother's womb by God. Every person born is formed by God.

You are a LIAR.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).

I may be a liar in your eyes. I appreciate your candor, though I don't see it the same way. But, all that aside, we're not talking about me. We are talking about people being created. Am I right on that part?

Do you not see there is a difference between "created" and "formed?" God is not haphazard in His use of words. Wouldn't you agree that we should read them accordingly?

 

[Kermos]

I may be a liar in your eyes. I appreciate your candor, though I don't see it the same way. But, all that aside, we're not talking about me. We are talking about people being created. Am I right on that part?

Do you not see there is a difference between "created" and "formed?" God is not haphazard in His use of words. Wouldn't you agree that we should read them accordingly?

"All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3) is John’s writing about Jesus causing everything to "be", that is, to exist for Jesus is the Word (shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #238 in this thread).

"Formed" and "created" are intimately related.

A person cannot "be" unless God creates.

A person cannot "be" unless God does the creative act of forming a person in the person's mother's womb.

In other words, a person cannot "be" apart from God’s wonderful act.

Thus the creative act of forming a person in the person's mother's womb is creating the person, and apart from God the person cannot come into being.

Nonetheless, people are created by God, and there are no exceptions.

You are a creature created by the Creator - no matter how distasteful this fact is to you.

@Jack is created by God the Creator.

Jesus, truly God, is uncreated, and no scripture says He was created. Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

Man is created. God is uncreated. Jesus is God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14).

 

[Rich R]

"Formed" and "created" are intimately related.

Sort of yes and sort of no, but mostly no.

In Genesis we see that man's body was "formed" from the dirt. We also see that man was "created" in the image of God. God is spirit, not dirt!

In general, God knows the difference between "formed" and "created" and we ought to take them the way he reveals them.

 

[True Faith]

I simply cannot believe all the Trinitarian lies going on in here...

Not one of you can explain how or why God would ever tell or teach a lie...

Having Studied and Taught the Trinity for far longer than I would like to admit.. roughly 30 yrs... It all boils down to one simple Question...

If you believe that Jesus was God Himself, God the Son, The Word who became flesh..

Paul says that it is impossible for God to lie, no matter the person of Himself since, according to the doctrine of the Trinity states that God is all 3 and all three are God Himself...
Hebrews 6:18 "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:"

And Jesus , or God Said, according to the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity, John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him that sent me."

So with all that being said, Whose will did God Himself come down from heaven to do if not his own???

Remember you have to answer it without removing Jesus from being the Word made Flesh, Jesus from Being God Himself or God from being Jesus or removing the Essence of God from Jesus...

As I have said, I know the Doctrine of the Trinity extremely well...

 

[Kermos]

Sort of yes and sort of no, but mostly no.

In Genesis we see that man's body was "formed" from the dirt. We also see that man was "created" in the image of God. God is spirit, not dirt!

In general, God knows the difference between "formed" and "created" and we ought to take them the way he reveals them.

"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them" (Genesis 1:27).

Rich R, see the creative act word "created" used in relation to Adam. God created the body of the female. God created the body of the male named Adam.

"YHWH God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" (Genesis 2:7).

Rich R, see the creative act word "formed" used in relation to Adam.

God formed Adam's human body, and God breathed life in to Adam's body: therefore, all of this is God's creative act.

The words "formed" and "created" are intimately related.

God created Adam (Genesis 1:27).

God formed Adam (Genesis 2:7).

The words "formed" and "created" are used for the creative act of Adam by God.

There is no "sort of yes and sort of no, but mostly no" because of the content in Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:7.

You are.a LIAR.

"I formed you in the womb" (Jeremiah 1:5) says the Word of God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14).

Rich R, do not be deceived, @Jack was formed in his mother's womb by God. Every person born is formed by God - even created by God.

Man is created. God is uncreated.

Jesus is God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14) for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[RedFan]

As I have said, I know the Doctrine of the Trinity extremely well...

Good for you, but why would you tell us this? Such rank ipse dixit cannot possibly enhance your credibility. It actually has the opposite effect. I suggest that before entering forums like this one, you consider checking your ego at the door. If that is even possible for someone who has posted "I don't need the Bible... God tells me what he wants me to say and how he wants me to say it" (Post #136 in Yahweh sends Yahweh).

Somehow I doubt that God told you to proclaim your vast knowledge of Trinitarian doctrine.

 

[True Faith]

Good for you, but why would you tell us this? Such rank ipse dixit cannot possibly enhance your credibility. It actually has the opposite effect. I suggest that before entering forums like this one, you consider checking your ego at the door. If that is even possible for someone who has posted "I don't need the Bible... God tells me what he wants me to say and how he wants me to say it" (Post #136 in Yahweh sends Yahweh).

Somehow I doubt that God told you to proclaim your vast knowledge of Trinitarian doctrine.

For starters... It is not ego at all... I am merely stating fact.... And God does tell me what he wants he to say and how he wants me to say it... So are you saying that Jesus had an ego as well???...

Your post further enforces that you do not believe in nor that you love God...

 

[True Faith]

Good for you, but why would you tell us this? Such rank ipse dixit cannot possibly enhance your credibility. It actually has the opposite effect. I suggest that before entering forums like this one, you consider checking your ego at the door. If that is even possible for someone who has posted "I don't need the Bible... God tells me what he wants me to say and how he wants me to say it" (Post #136 in Yahweh sends Yahweh).

Somehow I doubt that God told you to proclaim your vast knowledge of Trinitarian doctrine.

For one it is not Ego at all ... Ego is a vanity and pride issue, of which I have neither...

People have asked me and I have answered...

The Fact that I have actually studied the Doctrine of the Trinity is stating fact because I have...

The word that comes from God is not a show of ego, else every single Trinitarian and oneness believer on the planet is guilty of having an ego... They believer that God himself tells them that cherry picked scripture proves their point and that he gives them the interpretation to give to us... So every person on the plane believes that God tells them...

Show me a scripture that says that it is possible for God to lie, then you will have a point... Until that time I suggest you drop your sarcasm and doubt at the door...

 

[RedFan]

For starters... It is not ego at all... I am merely stating fact.... And God does tell me what he wants he to say and how he wants me to say it... So are you saying that Jesus had an ego as well???...

Your post further enforces that you do not believe in nor that you love God...

So you think a factual statement can never be an egotistical statement? Non sequitur #1.

I'm not saying, nor can anyone logically distill from my post, that I think Jesus (as opposed to YOU) had an ego. Non sequitur #2.

Because I had the temerity to question your claim of direct dialogue with the Almighty, you conclude that I neither believe in nor love God? Non sequitur #3.

The next time you and He strike up a conversation, perhaps you can ask Him for some instruction in syllogistic reasoning.

 

[True Faith]

Ignoring kermos.



What Scripture actually reveals;
* Is Gods Word has been coming forth out of Gods mouth, since the beginning of Gods creation.
* Is about 2,000+ years ago God sent forth out of Gods mouth, Gods Word, In the fashion of a Jewish mans body, that God Prepared, TO a Jewish woman’s (betrothed to a Jewish man of the House of David) Virgin Womb, and God Holy Servant said; call that visible body, by the Name JESUS.
* When After 9 months (according to the law of nature), that prepared body was revealed, it (that holy thing) was called JESUS...
* Notice was given the Virgin Female, that holy thing, WOULD BE called the Son of God.
* 30 years Later, that holy thing (JESUS), had a water baptism encounter with John the Baptist.
* WHEN JESUS was risen up from the water, “THEN” did a voice from Heaven DECLARED;

Acts:13
[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.



Following Gods ORDER and WAY is SIMPLE.
Understanding Gods Order and WAY, is more complicated, BECAUSE,
THE UNDERSTANDING, IS to comprehend;
HEARING is ONE thing, Knowing is ONE thing, SEEING is ANOTHER thing.

The Word of God is not SEEN. It’s HEARD through mens ears of oral teaching, and writings. Historical men wanted to SEE God, beyond HEARING God. Dilemma...God is Invisible to human eyes.
(For good reason. A human casting his human eyes upon God, would instantly incinerate that man. Human eyes are a part of a human mans corrupt body. Nothing corrupt can HEAR the voice of God, or SEE the shape of God.)

God prepared a body FOR Gods own Word, FOR human men TO SEE, and HEAR face to face, and sent that Prepared Word, TO Earth.

* When men SAW that Body, they were SEEING the outer body God Prepared, yet many simply believed they were SEEING a procreated Human man of DUST.
* When men HEARD that Body Speak, they were HEARING the True Word of God. (Which is called a man DOING “works”, according to God).
* When men BELIEVED the Word spoken, they were BELIEVING Gods Truth. (Which is called a man DOING “service”, according to God).
* When men BELIEVED and CONFESSED their Heartful Belief, they were/are Accepting Gods Offering to BE CONVERTED “THAT DAY”, by the Power of God (HS), to be WITH and IN them. (Called a mans “REASONABLE SERVICE”, to BECOME MADE
Forgiven, Sin Covered, Freed from Sin, Cleansed, Kept with Christ Jesus, Sanctified (set apart), Justified to Be Redeemed, Shall Be Redeemed FOR Service in Christ Earthly Kingdom, and From “That day” forward Forever “with” God, and God “with” them.



First of all TRI-NITY, simple mean three united is One.
Specifically...Lord.......... Son....... Word....Jesus...... Holy
Specifically...God........... Father... Will......Yahweh.. Holy
Specifically...Almighty....Spirit..... Power..Christ..... Holy

Rev 4:
[8] And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Rev.11
[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev.15
[3] And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Gods works, are by, though, of Gods Word, Will, and Power.
Gods ways, are by, through, of Gods Word, Will, and Power.

God PURPOSING names, titles, descriptions, missions,
to HIS OWN Word, Will, Power, is Gods OWN pleasure...

Isa 46: (the LORD speaking)
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Eph 1:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

And BTW, men MIMIC God, and do the same.

Important to note;
[16] Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
[17] (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Important to know what that means.

Glory to God,
Taken

Then you can show us where it says that it is possible for God to lie... until then you have nothing in your arsenal that proves Jesus is God Himself...

And if you read scripture, the whole book is about God giving the revelation to John by way of Jesus... God telling Jesus , then Jesus telling then Angel who then told John... Revelation 1:1.. so, using Revelation to try and establish a lie will never work...

 

[True Faith]

So you think a factual statement can never be an egotistical statement? Non sequitur #1.

I'm not saying, nor can anyone logically distill from my post, that I think Jesus (as opposed to YOU) had an ego. Non sequitur #2.

Because I had the temerity to question your claim of direct dialogue with the Almighty, you conclude that I neither believe in nor love God? Non sequitur #3.

The next time you and He strike up a conversation, perhaps you can ask Him for some instruction in syllogistic reasoning.

Well let's see about that... I said that God tells me what to say and how I should say it and you call it ego....

Jesus said John 12:49 "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. "...

Care to retract your statemen of lie???

 

[RedFan]

Well let's see about that... I said that God tells me what to say and how I should say it and you call it ego....

Jesus said John 12:49 "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. "...

Care to retract your statemen of lie???

Is English your fifth language? What I called ego was your gratuitous comment that "As I have said, I know the Doctrine of the Trinity extremely well . . ." Why bother to throw that comment in? What can it add to the points you seek to make?

 

[True Faith]

Is English your fifth language? What I called ego was your gratuitous comment that "As I have said, I know the Doctrine of the Trinity extremely well . . ." Why bother to throw that comment in? What can it add to the points you seek to make?

lol.... so you are saying that I am egotistical to let people know that I know the Doctrine quite well so that they should understand that I do know what I am talking about???