John 3:5... YES! ANOTHER BAPTISM THREAD!

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Hidden In Him

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which you posited as not necessarily always being present.
No no...Holy Spirit always present, so required or necessary is not words that are needed.

LoL. Tongues and prophecy which you posited as not necessarily always being present.

We're losing ground here. :p
You can count them up, but I don't think we are going to get an exact percentage.

I had some place I was going with it, but it's really not that important.

Hope you have a good evening, man! God bless!
 

Grailhunter

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LoL. Tongues and prophecy which you posited as not necessarily always being present.

We're losing ground here. :p


I had some place I was going with it, but it's really not that important.

Hope you have a good evening, man! God bless!
None of that is correct....start over....I keep telling you and you keep getting mixed up
 

H. Richard

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Is water baptism required:

What Paul teaches is that there are NO physical rituals, ceremonies, (physical works) required under the gospel of the grace of God given to him by Jesus. All the works required for salvation God completed on the cross and man cannot add to them. Salvation is a free gift to sinful men living in sinful bodies that have a sinful nature. Man could not/cannot keep the perfect Law of God, so God did it for them.

Gal 3:1-5
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

NOTE:
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have you suffered so many things in vain-- if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--
(NKJ)

Works of the flesh (physically performed works) do not do anything to the heart. It is the heart that matters.

If men are going to reference Mathew 28:19 and say that Jesus commanded (commissioned) the 12 to preach AND BAPTIZE as a source to prove baptism is required then they must also submit to the opposite when it comes to Paul. Paul was not commanded (commissioned) to baptize. This is plain and simple. If Paul was not commanded (commissioned) to baptize then water baptism is not necessary under the grace message he taught.

1 Cor 1:17-18
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(NKJ)

Man can make something out of nothing and say Paul had others to do the water baptism for him if they wish but that is just an assumption made by them. It is obvious that Paul's commission and message did not have water baptism as a requirement. He specifically separates baptism from the gospel in verse 17 above.
 

Grailhunter

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Paul, Peter, John, Mark, and Matthew, is there anyone in the Bible that does not preach that Baptism is part of the process of salvation. Paul preaches against works...not Baptism. Against the works of the Law, not Baptism. Anytime the process is discussed in detail...as in, this is what you should do or preach....Baptism is included. When instructions are given to be saved or the process of salvation....Baptism is included.... Scenarios are given in the Bible that there is an urgency to get Baptized....No scripture names Baptism as not required or necessary for salvation. Baptism is not the power that saves us....it is the process instructed by the God that did have the power. This is what He has done for us, and this how you get it. Now someone can try to dispute the meaning of a scripture...and if that scripture was the only one that discussed water Baptism then they might be able to legitimately dispute the need For Baptism or its association with salvation. But that is not the case....The topic of Water Baptism is well covered in the scripture by Christ and everyone that testified to the truth. Then those words and beliefs are put into action, to show that what Christ said and what the Apostles said is in fact true and that it is what they actually did, and instructed others to do, and in the process prove its meaning, effects, and significance.

Matthew 28:19-20
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Galatians 3:26-27
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:48
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Act 8:26-40
But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.) So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: “He was led as a sheep to slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He does not open His mouth. “In humiliation His judgment was taken away; Who will relate His generation? For His life is removed from the earth.” The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus

John 3:2-8
this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Acts 22:12-16
“A certain Ananias, a man who was devout by the standard of the Law, and well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, came to me, and standing near said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very time I looked up at him. And he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth. For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard. Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

Mark 1:8 John the Baptist said, I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter in to the Kingdom of God.”

John 3:22-23 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. Can you imagine being baptized by God!

Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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Interesting FHII but I think scripture and history are against you here.

Scripture

Bother before and after John 3:5 baptism's are happening and in real water (JtB in chap 1 and Jesus and disciples immediately after the conversation with Nicodemus. John therefore places the conversation with Nicodemus in a context of baptism with water.

History
From the earliest days the historical evidence shows that baptism was with water, and is to this day in Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Moreover we have an indication of what Jesus meant by John 3:5 in the writings of Irenaeus of Lyon. He was a disciple of Polycarp of Smyrna who in turn was a disciple of John himself.
Irenaeus was therefore only 2 generations away from John when he wrote:
" 'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190). My emboldening

Jesus introduces 'living' water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit in John 4:10 and 7:38 but I do not see why they should be connected to John 3:5 when you consider the context of that passage.

I see John unfolding the three sacraments on initiation into the Christian life the early part of his gospel - Baptism, Confirmation (Holy Spirit) and Eucharist in John 6 (22-68)

...which cannot be refuted better than by what is your own:
Quote~Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.
Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.
~End Q

Their <facts> shall be provided to them, genuine Roman Catholic <facts>! RC Authoritarianism is a great time saver—it enables you to form opinions without bothering to get Bible facts.
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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John 3:5 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter in to the Kingdom of God.”

Now watch the vultures try tear apart the skunk as he dares believe Jesus used metaphor which means He just as well could have said in John 3:5, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of Scripture and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God”.... while "the Kingdom of God" is another metaphor justifying the metaphorical meaning of 'Scripture' for the word "water".
 
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Mungo

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Now watch the vultures try tear apart the skunk as he dares believe Jesus used metaphor which means He just as well could have said in John 3:5, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of Scripture and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God”.... while "the Kingdom of God" is another metaphor justifying the metaphorical meaning of 'Scripture' for the word "water".

I think the usual is that water refers to the Holy Spirit (living water) so that it reads:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of Spirit and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God”
 
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Mungo

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...which cannot be refuted better than by what is your own:
Quote~Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.
Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.
~End Q

Their <facts> shall be provided to them, genuine Roman Catholic <facts>! RC Authoritarianism is a great time saver—it enables you to form opinions without bothering to get Bible facts.

Doesn't refute anything. Just a silly comment.
 

Waiting on him

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Now watch the vultures try tear apart the skunk as he dares believe Jesus used metaphor which means He just as well could have said in John 3:5, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of Scripture and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God”.... while "the Kingdom of God" is another metaphor justifying the metaphorical meaning of 'Scripture' for the word "water".
That would make since as scripture states a man should wash his wife in the word.
But I’m sure Lucifer would rather have man believe you just sprinkle a little water on her head.
 

Berserk

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(1) "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5)."
The poster can find no evidence from antiquity whatsoever for use of the expression "born of water" as a reference to amniotic fluid.
Jesus is specifying 2 necessary conditions for entering the kingdom of God, water baptism and regeneration through the Spirit.
When Jesus wants to refer to water in a spiritualized sense, He refers to the Holy Spirit as "living water" (John 4:10; 7:38). On the other hand, "water" without an explicit reference to baptism clearly refers to baptism in 1 John 5:6-8:

(2) "This [Jesus] is the One who came by water and the blood, not by water only, but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the One who testifies, for the Spirit is the Truth. There are 3 that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these 3 agree."

The expression "by water" clearly refers to Jesus' baptism and the expression "by blood" clearly refers to His blood shed on the cross. That is the only explanation for the role of the water and the blood as that which "testifies." And of course if "came by blood" refers to the crucifixion rather than to physical birth, then "came by water" refers to His baptism, not to amniotic fluid. And of course, the conjunction of "came by water' with the Spirit's testimony clearly refers to the heavenly voice as the testimony of the Spirit at Jesus' baptism.

(3) But if John 3:5 refers to baptism, then Jesus is establishing baptism and the work of the Spirit as 2 conditions for salvation; and that interpretation fits neatly with Jesus' Great Commission which establishes faith and baptism as 2 conditions for salvation:
"The One who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16)."

(4) Indeed, if we ask whether the other apostles who heard Jesus teach are comfortable with baptism as one of at least 2 conditions for salvatrion, the answer is a resounding Yes. Consider 2 quotations from Peter on this issue:

Peter :"Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, every one of you, so that your sins may be forgiven (Acts 2:38)."

Peter could have said, "repent and believe the Gospel" as 2 conditions for diving forgiveness, but instead he specifies repentance and baptism as 2 conditions. If there was any doubt that Peter is identifying baptism as a condition for salvation, that doubt is removed by 1 Peter 3:21:

"Baptism...now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as a pledge from God for a good conscience."
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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I think the usual is that water refers to the Holy Spirit (living water) so that it reads:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of Spirit and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God”

Then, according to Mr Mungo, <<it reads>>. Well well well, have you ever, old Eber, seen "water" spelled <<s-p-i-r-i-t>>? Only to confirm Mr Mungo's discovery, <<one is born of Spirit and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God”>> God, of Spirit and the Holy Spirit. Ja, it makes sense IF your god is some plurality without the Son -- you know, the Son through whom some Christians have always thought their God reveals Himself.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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Jesus is specifying 2 necessary conditions for entering the kingdom of God, water baptism and regeneration through the Spirit.

An unambiguous deliberated contortion and corruption of Scripture.
The verse refers to GOD and nothing else than THIS "God" of the "Kingdom of GOD" in full Fellowship-of-the-TRINITY of God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and GOD THE SON , the Christ, Jesus, who declared "I-AM-THE-WATER-OF-LIFE" who only can give BIRTH TO LIFE!

For what the hell must the Written Word of God always be complicated and compromised to suit FALSE DOCTRINE! God help us
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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(2) "This [Jesus] is the One who came by water and the blood, not by water only, but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the One who testifies, for the Spirit is the Truth. There are 3 that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these 3 agree."

The expression "by water" clearly refers to Jesus' baptism and the expression "by blood" clearly refers to His blood shed on the cross.

And this today to you old Eber, will be another lesson in theological excellence, in that to find clarity one has to look for absence of any <clear> relevance or <reference>
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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The expression "by water" clearly refers to Jesus' baptism and the expression "by blood" clearly refers to His blood shed on the cross. That is the only explanation for the role of the water and the blood as that which "testifies."

You are so insistent on 'clear' water; why not so consistent on 'clear' blood?
If the matter of water <testifies>, <clearly> of baptism by water (literally with or in), "by blood" should do the same, <testify>, <clearly>, of baptism by blood, with or in, literally.
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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Peter :"Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, every one of you, so that your sins may be forgiven (Acts 2:38)."

Peter could have said, "repent and believe the Gospel" as 2 conditions for diving forgiveness, but instead he specifies repentance and baptism as 2 conditions. If there was any doubt that Peter is identifying baptism as a condition for salvation, that doubt is removed by 1 Peter 3:21:

"Repent and be baptized" = ONE concept ONE truth— "Repent_and_be_baptized_in_the_Name_of_Jesus_Christ". "In_the_NAME_of_Jesus_Christ"
—NOT in <water> and NOT on <<condition of water baptism>>, which is berserk theology.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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Peter could have said, "repent and believe the Gospel" as 2 conditions for diving forgiveness, but instead he specifies repentance and baptism as 2 conditions. If there was any doubt that Peter is identifying baptism as a condition for salvation, that doubt is removed by 1 Peter 3:21:

"Baptism...now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as a pledge from God for a good conscience."

"Baptism NOT as a removal of dirt from the body (with / by water) now saves you, but baptism as a pledge from GOD for a good conscience (now saves you)." God's "pledge" is Christ who is our forgiveness and "The Lord Our Righteousness".
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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(2) "This [Jesus] is the One who came by water and the blood, not by water only, but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the One who testifies, for the Spirit is the Truth. There are 3 that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these 3 agree."

The expression "by water" clearly refers to Jesus' baptism and the expression "by blood" clearly refers to His blood shed on the cross. That is the only explanation for the role of the water and the blood as that which "testifies." And of course if "came by blood" refers to the crucifixion rather than to physical birth, then "came by water" refers to His baptism, not to amniotic fluid. And of course, the conjunction of "came by water' with the Spirit's testimony clearly refers to the heavenly voice as the testimony of the Spirit at Jesus' baptism.

In direct, defying contradiction of God's Written Word, your whole remonstrance!
You lie this "testimony", "testified", is testified, actually played out, on earth, while it is Written it is testified and actually happens "IN HEAVEN"— thus NULLIFYING your whole deceitful remonstrance on behalf of physical water baptism being conditional for salvation or not conditional for salvation however.