John 3:5... YES! ANOTHER BAPTISM THREAD!

[Hidden In Him]

Well you shocked me. As smart as you are, I would never consider you would come up with such a thing.
This is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. Besides it being biblical and an age old foundational belief it is one of the topics that has fractured Christ's church....Which I consider a crime against Christ.

Well, yes. Unfortunately it has become an issue in the church when it was never meant to be. See, I'm a strong believer in most early church traditions, and especially ones like water baptism and the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The trouble is, however, that when both these practices started to become minimized within various segments of the church, all of a sudden the question began arising as to whether or not a believer could be saved without undergoing them.

Lord willing I can post the entire passage and go through it with you, but in short, the Lord's teaching was to tell Nicodemus to communicate to the Pharisees and Jewish council that they could not simply fill the old wineskins with new wine; that they would have to die to their former way of thinking and their former lives if they would enter Heaven. Hence He was attempting to teach Nicodemus about the necessity of dying to the old man, as symbolized by water baptism and then lived out through dying to their former lives (like Paul had), and birth into newness of life through the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Now, this is the reason why (imo) He taught them that no one could see the kingdom of God unless He was born of water and the Spirit; they needed to become totally born again, and live a completely new life. This is why these practices were kept by the early church. But when forced to answer the question of if believers are saved who have not undergone these things, my belief is that neither my water baptism OR my baptism in the Holy Spirit were what brought me into newness of life. I was very much a Christian and very much a child of God before I underwent either, and just as much headed for Heaven then as I was afterwards, or now. So if forced to answer if I or anyone else can be saved without undergoing the baptisms, my position is simply that it is being born of the incorruptible seed of the word of God which causes a Christian to become truly born again. I hold that the baptisms are experiences which should NOT be excluded from the Christian life, but should they be, I don't regard either as what truly brings spiritual life to a believer.

Some people have a hard time with spiritual things...spiritual powers and events.

Yes. The baptism in the Holy Spirit, complete with prophesying and speaking in tongues especially. Departure from that one has been the most tragic of all, leaving the church largely powerless up to the present time. Few practice it today, though thankfully that is eventually going to change back to the pattern established by the early church.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Who’s qualified to water baptize?

Preferably the most prominent leader of the Christian community one is a part of in that area.

Why do you ask?

 

[Philip James]

We have water baptism and being baptized into Christ. Which is the symbol and which is the real deal?

Yes. They are one and the same.

Likewise, you do those rituals and not do that which they symbolize and declare to God you are clean. You are baptized in literal water, but not in Christ. You eat bread and drink wine, but don't have communion with Christ.

Wow, just wow...

as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them.

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Grailhunter]

I am not going by something written or said by someone 1500 years after Christ, I am going by what the Bible says.


Likewise, you do those rituals and not do that which they symbolize and declare to God you are clean. You are baptized in literal water, but not in Christ. You eat bread and drink wine, but don't have communion with Christ.

I am not directly saying you are guilty; I am making a point. But you are looking at the ritual and not what it represents. That I do charge to you! If you believed otherwise you would agree that we must be immersed in Christ and we must have communion with Christ...

So you've had your bath, and eat your bread and drink your wine... I will do what they represent.

Let me know how that works for you.


Oh, really?

Romans 6:2-3 KJV
[3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We have water baptism and being baptized into Christ. Which is the symbol and which is the real deal?

I am not directly saying you are guilty; I am making a point. But you are looking at the ritual and not what it represents
No, I am looking at both the spiritual significance of the ritual and what it represents....What you are trying to do is write scriptures.

The posts before this have lists of scriptures that are a true testament of the truth. The scriptures are listed, the beliefs of the early Church are listed, The beliefs of the Early Church Fathers are listed. the Ecumenical Councils stand, All of Christian history stands to testify against your false claims.

 

[Grailhunter]

Well, yes. Unfortunately it has become an issue in the church when it was never meant to be. See, I'm a strong believer in most early church traditions, and especially ones like water baptism and the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The trouble is, however, that when both these practices started to become minimized within various segments of the church, all of a sudden the question began arising as to whether or not a believer could be saved without undergoing them.

Lord willing I can post the entire passage and go through it with you, but in short, the Lord's teaching was to tell Nicodemus to communicate to the Pharisees and Jewish council that they could not simply fill the old wineskins with new wine; that they would have to die to their former way of thinking and their former lives if they would enter Heaven. Hence He was attempting to teach Nicodemus about the necessity of dying to the old man, as symbolized by water baptism and then lived out through dying to their former lives (like Paul had), and birth into newness of life through the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Now, this is the reason why (imo) He taught them that no one could see the kingdom of God unless He was born of water and the Spirit; they needed to become totally born again, and live a completely new life. This is why these practices were kept by the early church. But when forced to answer the question of if believers are saved who have not undergone these things, my belief is that neither my water baptism OR my baptism in the Holy Spirit were what brought me into newness of life. I was very much a Christian and very much a child of God before I underwent either, and just as much headed for Heaven then as I was afterwards, or now. So if forced to answer if I or anyone else can be saved without undergoing the baptisms, my position is simply that it is being born of the incorruptible seed of the word of God which causes a Christian to become truly born again. I hold that the baptisms are experiences which should NOT be excluded from the Christian life, but should they be, I don't regard either as what truly brings spiritual life to a believer.


Yes. The baptism in the Holy Spirit, complete with prophesying and speaking in tongues especially. Departure from that one has been the most tragic of all, leaving the church largely powerless up to the present time. Few practice it today, though thankfully that is eventually going to change back to the pattern established by the early church.

Don't waste your time....The posts before this have lists of scriptures that are a true testament of the truth. The scriptures are listed, the beliefs of the early Church are listed, The beliefs of the Early Church Fathers are listed. the Ecumenical Councils stand, All of Christian history stands to testify against your false claims. copy and paste....You do not have a leg to stand on.

Whatever you got....it comes more than 1500 years after Christ and the Apostles made it clear that this was required for salvation. So your battle is against Christ and the apostles...and when I started this conversion I said that it will continue and scriptures really do not win the discussion...No matter what Christ said...no matter what Paul said...no matter how much it is repeated. You have no respect for what is holy. You had to trample all over the scriptures to get to this post. No respect for Christ or the scriptures. You will stand before God and call him a liar! Good luck with that...not my soul.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

What qualifies one to baptize with water?

I don't know that the Bible gives any qualifications.

 

[Grailhunter]

Freedom of Religion....the constitutional guard against religious fanaticism.
The people on this forum put up with a lot, and not just on this forum.
Those that attribute all the characteristics of Satan to God....Calvinists.
There are people that deny the deity of Christ...and say there is no hell.....Jehovah's Witnesses.
There are people that believe that speaking in tongues is near to occultism. The Unpardonable Sin!
There are a few sociopaths on this forum.
People that deny all of Christianity to form their beliefs regarding Baptism and Communion.
There is even a group out their that believe that Christ was homosexual.....Pointing to the fact that the scriptures do not indicate that Christ was married when Judaism required that, to hold any religious position. They point to the naked young man in the sheet in the garden and the secret gospel of Mark. There is actually a group that believes this, and it is called NAMBLA.....North American Man Boy Love Association...I believe we have a member here.
There are people that believe that Christ saved everyone one earth...no need for the Bible, faith, or churches.
There are people that believe that when Christ returns it will be in a flying saucer. They site Ezekiel for this.
Freedom of Religion....we put up with a lot, but it has to be...The Puritans came to this country to practice their religion freely. But they did not believe in religious freedom. If it was up to them everyone would be forced to be Puritans....there are billboards along the highway that indicate that freedom is anti-Christian.
There are people that believe that this country is demonic.....How many died for their right to believe that!

Then on the other side of coin there are people on this forum that are so filled with the Holy Spirit that the heart of the Holy Spirit is felt with their every word.....I tip my hat to them fore they are better than I.

For myself I fellowship with may denominations, to do that I have to be tolerable of many beliefs. But I do draw the line at slandering God....There are those that would speak against all of Christianity, speak against the scriptures, all of Christian history to insinuate that their beliefs are true....

If you do not stand for something, you will fall for anything. So I will go nose to nose with them. But still for those that would believe God damns people to hell before they are born and believe they are the elect...I still call them Christian...I maybe gritting my teeth when I say it....but still I do. But there is a limit to my tolerance, the sociopaths, the man boy lovers, and those that deny the deity of Christ.....I do not believe they are of Christ's flock.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Don't waste your time....The posts before this have lists of scriptures that are a true testament of the truth. The scriptures are listed, the beliefs of the early Church are listed, The beliefs of the Early Church Fathers are listed. the Ecumenical Councils stand, All of Christian history stands to testify against your false claims. copy and paste....You do not have a leg to stand on.

Whatever you got....it comes more than 1500 years after Christ and the Apostles made it clear that this was required for salvation. So your battle is against Christ and the apostles...and when I started this conversion I said that it will continue and scriptures really do not win the discussion...No matter what Christ said...no matter what Paul said...no matter how much it is repeated. You have no respect for what is holy. You had to trample all over the scriptures to get to this post. No respect for Christ or the scriptures. You will stand before God and call him a liar! Good luck with that...not my soul.

Ok. Out of curiosity, do you believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit should be accompanied by prophesying and speaking in tongues as it was in the NT?

 

[Grailhunter]

Ok. Out of curiosity, do you believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit should be accompanied by prophesying and speaking in tongues as it was in the NT?

What do you bet we can find scriptures that tell of that. I do not see any suggestion that it happened all the time.
As today.....the Holy Spirit is always involved, not necessarily in tongues and interpretations. Nor is tongues required for the fullfillness of salvation.

 

[Hidden In Him]

What do you bet we can find scriptures that tell of that. I do not see any suggestion that it happened all the time.
As today.....the Holy Spirit is always involved, not necessarily in tongues and interpretations. Nor is tongues required for the fullfillness of salvation.

Then you are saying you do not think it is particularly important one way or another?

 

[Enoch111]

I don't know that the Bible gives any qualifications.

The baptizer would need to be a mature brother in Christ. See the baptism of Saul who was converted to Paul.

 

[Enoch111]

As today.....the Holy Spirit is always involved, not necessarily in tongues and interpretations. Nor is tongues required for the fullfillness of salvation.

This is correct. On the day of Pentecost there is no record that the ones who received the gift of the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues. It was the apostles and disciples who were speaking in tongues.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This is correct. On the day of Pentecost there is no record that the ones who received the gift of the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues. It was the apostles and disciples who were speaking in tongues.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only [a]the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.

If God was being rather selective about how many were prophesying and speaking in tongues during New Testament times, how could that have been a fulfillment (or even partial fulfillment) of the prophecy Peter quoted?

 

[Enoch111]

If God was being rather selective about how many were prophesying and speaking in tongues during New Testament times, how could that have been a fulfillment (or even partial fulfillment) of the prophecy Peter quoted?

1 Corinthians 12-14 explains how God would distribute the GIFTS (plural) of the Holy Spirit. But under the New Covenant all believers would receive the GIFT (singular) of the Holy Spirit Himself -- CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY.

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing [distributing] to every man severally as He will... Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1 Cor 12:11,29,30)

 

[Hidden In Him]

1 Corinthians 12-14 explains how God would distribute the GIFTS (plural) of the Holy Spirit. But under the New Covenant all believers would receive the GIFT (singular) of the Holy Spirit Himself -- CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY.

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing [distributing] to every man severally as He will... Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1 Cor 12:11,29,30)

Agreed. But now, the defining characteristics in Joel 2:28 highlight prophecy especially, and prophecy along with tongues were the two manifestations that were showing up again and again after the baptism (Acts 10:46-47; Acts 19:6).

So again, if only a chosen few were prophesying and speaking in tongues during the New Testament period, how could that have been a fulfillment of Joel 2:28?

 

[BreadOfLife]

let me explain something as clear as possible as i can.... you can either reply back to me in civil or manner .or just dont bother.. i am full aware of what the post is all about . i have put up with your insults your snide remarks . no more you pop off one more time with a insult.i promise i will report you. along with every post you make with insults . so take a chill pill act civil ..

I never posted a single 'insult".
I simply told you to READ the posts before responding . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

{sanctification is not water baptism. but spiritual actually we are justified then sanctified .but both work together } so your not understanding your own post? sanctification being set apart. is done by the Holy Spirit but to help you out water baptism does not save you .... Jesus saves and him alone . to say water baptism is essential as in necessary to be saved .takes away the shed blood and the resurrection

Wrong.

Obedience doesn’t take away ANYTHING from the sacrifice of Christ. Obedience make His sacrifice EFFICACIOUS.
His sacrifice does absolutely NOTHING for you without your cooperation. Baptism is OUR response – our cooperation with God’s grace. This is the “obedience of faith” that Paul speaks of in Rom. 1:5.

This is why Jesus explicitly said:
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Baptism and ALL obedience to God is an essential element of faith
Faith = Belief + OBEDIENCE.

 

[Grailhunter]

Then you are saying you do not think it is particularly important one way or another?

Then you are saying you do not think it is particularly important one way or another?

Never said anything like that....
You say, you do not think it is particularly important one way or the another? "it"
it...is essential, whether it is the filling of the Holy Spirit or the speaking in tongues or prophesying.
it...is what Christ referred to as the Spirit of Truth...But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Then you are saying you do not think it is particularly important one way or another?

Never said anything like that....
You say, you do not think it is particularly important one way or the another? "it"
it...is essential, whether it is the filling of the Holy Spirit or the speaking in tongues or prophesying.
it...is what Christ referred to as the Spirit of Truth...But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

It being the baptism in the Holy Spirit with manifestations of prophecy and speaking in tongues as opposed to the baptism in the Holy Spirit without them, which you posited as not necessarily always being present.

Regarding this, how often do you think it was present in the New Testament era? Most of the time, or most of the time not?

 

[Grailhunter]

It being the baptism in the Holy Spirit with manifestations of prophecy and speaking in tongues as opposed to the baptism in the Holy Spirit without them, which you posited as not necessarily always being present.

Regarding this, how often do you think it was present in the New Testament era? Most of the time, or most of the time not?

which you posited as not necessarily always being present.
No no...Holy Spirit always present, so required or necessary is not words that are needed.
Tongues and prophecy....always good but not required for salvation.
You can count them up, but I don't think we are going to get an exact percentage.