John 3:5... YES! ANOTHER BAPTISM THREAD!

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bbyrd009

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The passage refers to natural birth--as the context is being "born."
you still talk like you know, which is a sign to me, but ive been suspecting as much for a while now myself. That none of us have a ritual for the baptism of fire seems to reinforce the opinion to me
 

bbyrd009

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Oh, Boy! Another Baptism thread! Horray!! Just in time for Thanksgiving!

snoopy_happy_dance.jpg


Well, to keep it short, scripture says Jesus was baptized in water in the Jordan, and that He is the Author and Perfecter of our faith. What that means is He set the perfect pattern for believers to follow. So I'd say water baptism is what Jesus was referring to here, and that it ought to be followed. But I always teach regarding this passage that the reason water baptism should be kept is because it symbolized the death of the old man, whereas coming up out out of the water and being baptized in the Spirit represented the birth of the new one. Therefore it is not the one who goes through mere outward ceremonies who will be justified, but the one who actually lives out what these things represented. That is what Jesus was ultimately teaching here with regard to the believer.
i'm kinda surprised that after you have said that, you apparently dont connect your last sentence with a more symbolic understanding of the first one? Dunno if you believe ritual baptism is required for "salvation" or not, but then we prolly have diff defs there anyway.

Wouldnt "baptizing in water in the Jordan" be considered sedition in a Theocracy? Iyo?
 

bbyrd009

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are we generally aware that the Jordan is almost always like 4 inches deep, except when it is raging? Or even 2 inches deep? Not saying that cuts here and there might not be 4 feet deep, too, but imo there is a point to be made there. Most, the vast majority, of the entire Jordan, could not even get your calves wet! I even recall some cognitive dissonance when i saw it, although i didnt pursue that at the time.
The amazing name Jordan: meaning and etymology
"The name Jordan in the Bible" is brief, and has some interesting reflections in it imo

"how could anyone get baptized in the Jordan river, so shallow"
an interesting search imo

now i dunno what literally happened, but yall should maybe look at some pictures of the Jordan and contemplate what you see
which i just went and did, and most of them are deceiving, note the one "i thought it would be bigger," and i can tell you that this one,
IMG_0387.JPG is like the Jordan in flood stage, ok. The ones with still stretches you find, look like they could be whatever, 8 feet deep or whatever? With rafts going down them? Thats for like 3-5 days in the spring thaw, and even then its mostly more like 6-10 inches in the deep parts ok.

im telling you idk ezackly whats going on, but "holding back the waters of the Jordan with the ark" is more like a joke, ok, and if you saw it--even in "flood" stage--you would laugh at that right off. Its like some little trickle was purposely chosen to make some point about shallowness or something.

ok, i sure dont know ok, but imo do some investigating

i guess down lower there are some "marshy" pools, which to me invokes Javan right away, dunno if you know about Javan yet though, maybe look him up
 
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Hidden In Him

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It brings children into the new Covenant, makes them members of the Church & children of God.
They are moved from being "in Adam" to "in Christ".

But this to me seems to position water baptism as the very means by which we become children of God. I believe with others here that the way we are born from above is by receiving the incorruptible seed of God's word within us, and that by receiving the word of God we are receiving Christ, the Word made flesh. I therefore believe baptism is only a ceremony, and should be withheld for a later time, when that believer (whether they be young or old) is fully prepared to take the step of living out what water baptism represents; dying to the old man. But rising up out of the water is not what has made him a new man. It merely symbolized this in ritual form, and reinforced the teaching in the believer's mind that they were to lead a complete new life, dead to the old one.

You don't believe that it is actually through the incorruptible seed of God's word that we are born again?
 

Hidden In Him

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i'm kinda surprised that after you have said that, you apparently dont connect your last sentence with a more symbolic understanding of the first one? Dunno if you believe ritual baptism is required for "salvation" or not, but then we prolly have diff defs there anyway.

Wouldnt "baptizing in water in the Jordan" be considered sedition in a Theocracy? Iyo?

I get this question quite a lot, and as I was telling Mungo, what water baptism does is reinforce a teaching in the minds of those who go through the experience; i.e. that they are now dead to the old man and should live to the new.

It's the same with communion. Communion reinforces the teaching in the minds of a congregation (or at least it was supposed to anyway) that they are one body together in Christ and should therefore strive to keep the unity of the faith in the bonds of peace. It was supposed to be a continual physical reminder of this. The very same could be said for observing many of the Jewish customs. All of them can bring reminders of great spiritual truths to believer's minds, and reinforce them through physical actions.
 

bbyrd009

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I get this question quite a lot, and as I was telling Mungo, what water baptism does is reinforce a teaching in the minds of those who go through the experience; i.e. that they are now dead to the old man and should live to the new.

It's the same with communion. Communion reinforces the teaching in the minds of a congregation (or at least it was supposed to anyway) that they are one body together in Christ and should therefore strive to keep the unity of the faith in the bonds of peace. It was supposed to be a continual physical reminder of this. The very same could be said for observing many of the Jewish customs. All of them can bring reminders of great spiritual truths to believer's minds, and reinforce them through physical actions.
i'm not inlove with "the faith" as a noun..."like" anyway :)
In a theocracy, at least one run by men, I would likely get snuffed within the first year, LoL.
ha well imo thats right where we all are, not getting snuffed like you infer--like JohnB and Jesus expected iow--but getting snuffed anyway, seems like. Dunno. Imo find the John who knew he was getting beheaded, and the Jesus Who appropriated--even if only via others--all the titles of the Caesars and Pharaohs, with basically Two Middle Fingers turned alla way up at The Man?
 

VictoryinJesus

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Only what Jesus says about the Living Water of which we are to drink continually...which is Himself...as is the Bead of Heaven.

I have been water baptised ... a one shot deal...but the living Water is a daily experience.

The children of Israel are a good picture ..." they were all baptized in The Cloud and in the sea...." They went through the sea ( on dry land mind you) ..but the Cloud hung over them all day every day...

Just my two cents... :)

other verses that support what you share in agreement with @FHII:


Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
...with drink (of Living Water)He said if any thirst after ...come drink (of the Living Water)and he who drinks (from the River of Life)will never thirst again.

Revelation 22:1-2 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

“Proceeding out of the throne of God” could be said ...the Word of God proceeds out of the throne as Christ said He is The Word and Light that came out from the Father unto the world...could be said the Spirit proceeds out from the throne of God and of the Lamb...could also be said Christ proceeds out from the throne of God...the “River of Life” one is baptized in and of as also could be said Life (The Living water)proceeds out from the throne of God. John 13:3-4 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; [4] He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

John 16:27-29 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. [28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. [29] His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
 
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Ezra

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I have a feeling that in John 3:5 Jesus isn't talking about H2O. It doesn't seem reasonable that he's talking about literal water in chapter 3
exactly the water is symbolic imo water represent the washing of the word /fullers soap .
 
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VictoryinJesus

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The passage refers to natural birth--as the context is being "born."

But it ultimately refers to:

Genesis 1:7
"And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."

used to also believe it spoke of both births of natural (birth from the womb of water) and spiritual. But the must be to enter into Life ...the water to enter into Life is Living water and that is not the natural water that fills those who thirst(after the righteousness of the Spirit of God)...as Christ clarified. “The Living Water” to enter into Life.
 
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Ezra

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I'm 100% with @FHII on this one....all the way.
Sorry guys , but the regenerating Living Water that Jesus spoke about is of so much greater importance that all the silly quibbling about wet water that cannot do anything for anyone....except keep out flesh alive when we need a drink...but Jesus says ..My Water will quench the Spiritual thirst.
BINGO AMEN
 

Ezra

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Nonsense.

Sanctification is PART of the process of salvation.
To say Baptism is necessary for one but not the other is contradictory.

If it's a commandment of Christ - then it's necessary . . .
sanctification is not water baptism. but spiritual actually we are justified then sanctified .but both work together
 

VictoryinJesus

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are we generally aware that the Jordan is almost always like 4 inches deep, except when it is raging? Or even 2 inches deep? Not saying that cuts here and there might not be 4 feet deep, too, but imo there is a point to be made there. Most, the vast majority, of the entire Jordan, could not even get your calves wet! I even recall some cognitive dissonance when i saw it, although i didnt pursue that at the time.
The amazing name Jordan: meaning and etymology
"The name Jordan in the Bible" is brief, and has some interesting reflections in it imo

"how could anyone get baptized in the Jordan river, so shallow"
an interesting search imo

now i dunno what literally happened, but yall should maybe look at some pictures of the Jordan and contemplate what you see
which i just went and did, and most of them are deceiving, note the one "i thought it would be bigger," and i can tell you that this one,
View attachment 7904 is like the Jordan in flood stage, ok. The ones with still stretches you find, look like they could be whatever, 8 feet deep or whatever? With rafts going down them? Thats for like 3-5 days in the spring thaw, and even then its mostly more like 6-10 inches in the deep parts ok.

im telling you idk ezackly whats going on, but "holding back the waters of the Jordan with the ark" is more like a joke, ok, and if you saw it--even in "flood" stage--you would laugh at that right off. Its like some little trickle was purposely chosen to make some point about shallowness or something.

ok, i sure dont know ok, but imo do some investigating

i guess down lower there are some "marshy" pools, which to me invokes Javan right away, dunno if you know about Javan yet though, maybe look him up


Revelation 22:1-2 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The River of Life doesn’t dry up, but flows out from the throne of God and accomplishes what it is sent to do and doesn’t return void but bares fruit ...for the healing of the nations. The Tree of Life in the midst...one can be baptized in the River of Life...Christ said this in “Come drink and never thirst again.”
 

Ezra

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Water isn't the gospel. That's nonsense.
washing of the word
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
John 15:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Titus 3:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 
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Mungo

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washing of the word
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
John 15:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Titus 3:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You are misled by the poor translation of the KJV
Eph 3:26
that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word (RSV)

The sanctification is by means of water (H2o) with ("accompanied by" - Concise Oxford English Dictionary or "using" Collins Dictionary) the word.

What word? Well Jesus tells us what word in Mt 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Moreover both the RSV and KJV are both misleading in that they translate a noun as a verb. They are actually poor paraphrases.
The noun is the Greek loutron (G3067) (which actually means a bath).
G3067

loutron
From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.


The NAB is a much more literal translation:
26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,

Not only does the word loutron mean a bath but it is a special kind of bath.
Remember Eph 5:21-33 about a husband and wife, and Christ and the Church.
Also remember the Church is the bride of Christ.
Now consider the implication of that and why Paul use the word loutron which was the bridal bath; the bath a bride took just before her wedding.

"The bride’s ritual bath took place on the morning of the wedding ceremony

itself. The bathing ritual was a pivotal coming-of-age rite for the young bride. Indeed,

if a girl died before being married, she would undergo this ritual of bathing after her

death. The loutrophoros was used in this ritual ceremony to carry water. Vase-paintings

seem to suggest that the groom did not bathe or that his bath was less important than the

bride’s."

From The Nuptial Ceremony of Ancient Greece and the Articulation of Male Control Through Ritual by Casey Mason, Macalester College.

The only other place in the NT that loutron is used is in Titus 3:5
"....he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit"

Can you see Paul's allusion to the bridal imagery of the ritual bath that made the bride ready for her wedding?


 

Mungo

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But this to me seems to position water baptism as the very means by which we become children of God. I believe with others here that the way we are born from above is by receiving the incorruptible seed of God's word within us, and that by receiving the word of God we are receiving Christ, the Word made flesh. I therefore believe baptism is only a ceremony, and should be withheld for a later time, when that believer (whether they be young or old) is fully prepared to take the step of living out what water baptism represents; dying to the old man. But rising up out of the water is not what has made him a new man. It merely symbolized this in ritual form, and reinforced the teaching in the believer's mind that they were to lead a complete new life, dead to the old one.

You don't believe that it is actually through the incorruptible seed of God's word that we are born again?

You can believe all kinds of imaginative stuff, but yes, baptism is the means by which we become children of God
 

Hidden In Him

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You can believe all kinds of imaginative stuff, but yes, baptism is the means by which we become children of God

Mungo, the positions I take might be considered by some to be "imaginative," but when I post something, it invariably will have substance and scripture behind it. I was hoping we could discuss what the substance and scripture is behind what you believe and maybe discuss it.

The above is sort of a non-response...
But I'm at peace with it if that is all you wished to say.

Blessings in Christ, as always.
 
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bbyrd009

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ppl who are convinced their beliefs are ATs :rolleyes
IMG_0197.JPG


which is btw getting really harder to find now, a la Trump lol
i have an...unmarked copy in meme dump, didnt feel like digging it out

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Revelation 22:1-2 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The River of Life doesn’t dry up, but flows out from the throne of God and accomplishes what it is sent to do and doesn’t return void but bares fruit ...for the healing of the nations. The Tree of Life in the midst...one can be baptized in the River of Life...Christ said this in “Come drink and never thirst again.”
ok, not sure how that made you think of that?
 

ScottA

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you still talk like you know, which is a sign to me, but ive been suspecting as much for a while now myself. That none of us have a ritual for the baptism of fire seems to reinforce the opinion to me
"Knowing" and knowledge come from God. "Opinions" are from men.

The ritual for baptism by fire, is that you receive the Holy Spirit, to open when He knocks at the door.
 
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ScottA

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used to also believe it spoke of both births of natural (birth from the womb of water) and spiritual. But the must be to enter into Life ...the water to enter into Life is Living water and that is not the natural water that fills those who thirst(after the righteousness of the Spirit of God)...as Christ clarified. “The Living Water” to enter into Life.
The waters refer to "the waters above and the waters below" spoken of in Genesis. The one is natural, and the other is spiritual, one of heaven and the other of the earth. "Living water" is not of the earth, but of heaven.
 
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