John 3:5... YES! ANOTHER BAPTISM THREAD!

[Hidden In Him]

Yes, but this is no ordinary water, it is the living water, through which the Holy Spirit regenerates us by His power.

Here's St Cyril, bishop of Jerusalem on it: CHURCH FATHERS: Catechetical Lecture 3 (Cyril of Jerusalem)

Hey, Philip! Thanks for this response. This gives us something to work with : )

But now, let me ask you a leading question: If the baptism in the Holy Spirit gives new life to the spirit man instantaneously (which is what John 3 infers), why does water baptism not give new life to the body instantaneously? From reading Cyril, I think I know what your answer will be, and I'll have another question to ask in response to it. But I'd rather if you answered it in your own words first, so as not to assume anything.

Peace to you as well, and hope you're having a blessed day! : )

 

[Hidden In Him]

All of them

LoL! That sounds like a lot of work!

I tell you what, Phillip seems to be cutting more to the chase in a hurry, so let me have this conversation with him to start. Let me know if you disagree with what he is saying. If so, maybe we can pick it up from where you disagree.

Blessings in Christ, Mungo.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well the discussions of Baptism and communion....salvation in general, has ripped the church apart over the centuries. So it will continue and scriptures really do not win the discussion...No matter what Christ said...no matter what Paul said...no matter how much it is repeated...let me show you....this will mean nothing to many people.

John 6:40-67
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.” Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.” Words to the Disciples These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”

And I have to ask, when Christ says...Truly truly...do you know what that means?

The whole Christian theme….the fact that Christ was serving as a sacrifice and His blood having power or divine effects…and…and this ritual where the bread and wine symbolized His body and blood and they eat it and drank it, is extremely sacrilegious to the Jews. His apostles were Jews. This ritual was tantamount to sacrificing a human being on the alter in the Temple. He was risking loosing His apostles, it would seem completely Pagan to them. And as you can see, He lost many of His disciples. That is how serious this is. So performing this ritual has to be very important, even critical.

If it was not so important….He would not have proposed it and have them actually do it and then establish it as common and frequent ritual. Why do such a thing if it was not absolutely necessary, to have the life Christ spoke of? If it didn't really have a purpose, why do it? They took a lot of heat from this because the non-Christians knew they were doing this and accused them of horrible things…like baking babies in loaves of bread and eating them. This had to be absolutely important for Christ to explain that you have to do this or there is no life in you. For those that would attempt to explain away the words of Christ and say that He was talking about earthly life or his words you have to apply this to all the scriptures that Christ discussed life. This is not about earthly life or His word because they went on to do it.... The nature and concern Christ is talking about here is crucial and necessary.

You would have to ignore the specific words of Christ....deny them....to change the meaning this. Baptism, is the same way, for different reasons.....There is no scripture that describes baptism as meaning nothing...or just a symbology or a public display...no such scripture. John the Baptist was baptizing for the remission of sins....big deal...after Christ was crucified...it was a still a big deal and referred to as for the remission of sins and continued to be believed to be for the remission of sins...for centuries....until a segment of Protestants started hacking away at the spirituality of Christianity.....gutting the meaning of Christs words and the words of the Apostles that described the process of salvation.

Don't feel bad, people have been chasing their tails on this for centuries......they have been debating this for centuries....But instead of figuring it out....they are all guilty of fracturing Christ's purpose.

I appreciate this, Grailhunter, and I'm well aware of your points. Only we disagree on specifically why it was so important. I don't take the typical position of many Protestants (including here) that it is of no great import, but neither do I feel that water baptism and communion are necessary unto salvation.

Regarding baptism, he said "the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and Life," and by "flesh" here He was calming their nerves about thinking he was referring to literally eating His body; rather it was His word which they must eat of to have eternal life. The rest was merely symbolism.

More directly to the conversation I was having with Mungo that led to that post, what answer would you give to Post #81. I'm curious to see what the fully-fleshed out Catholic teaching on water baptism is, and analyze it more acutely.

Thanks for the reply, man. Hope you're having a good day as well : )

 

[Hidden In Him]

Shades of Ananias and Sapphira!

They'd have to get me on another wrap. I have no land to sell, LoL!

 

[bbyrd009]

They are one and the same. But to one death, and another life.

yeh, i doubt it wadr
real catchy tho, ty
got a nice, pious ring to it
i'd go with "unto" next time tho

What "baptism by fire" are you referring to?

the current idiom one, Scott

 

[Grailhunter]

I appreciate this, Grailhunter, and I'm well aware of your points. Only we disagree on specifically why it was so important. I don't take the typical position of many Protestants (including here) that it is of no great import, but neither do I feel that water baptism and communion are necessary unto salvation.

Regarding baptism, he said "the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and Life," and by "flesh" here He was calming their nerves about thinking he was referring to literally eating His body; rather it was His word which they must eat of to have eternal life. The rest was merely symbolism.

More directly to the conversation I was having with Mungo that led to that post, what answer would you give to Post #81. I'm curious to see what the fully-fleshed out Catholic teaching on water baptism is, and analyze it more acutely.

Thanks for the reply, man. Hope you're having a good day as well : )

I guess you know I am not Catholic.
When it comes to salvation we are trying to understand the process...the effects...the result. Because we do not understand all that is Christ and heaven, that does not mean the answer is to deny the process...Tap Christ on the shoulder and a ask Him...then when He looks you straight in the eye and explained it all perfectly....that does not mean that you could understand or comprehend the totality of it. The same thing goes for the Trinity.

And I can understand some variations of this but whatever it is....whatever the opinion is, Christ made it certain and for sure that spiritual life will not happen for you, if you do not do this.

Some believe saved means ticket to heaven....don't bother with baptism and communion and see what happens. But do not blame the scriptures because it is clear what has been told....the process of salvation was well explained. Sometimes the scriptures are a little vague on things ...this is not. The belief that baptism and communion is not necessary for salvation is not supported by scripture.
John 55:43.."Don't worry about baptism and communion, it is not part of salvation." This scripture is not there. You have to dream this concept up...it is not what the scriptures describe....the urgency of baptism is demonstrated in the scriptures. It is not what the early Christians believed...centuries later what the ECF's believed....then the councils.....this is scriptures....described... demonstrated and historical. Over 1500 years after Christ, someone decides it is not necessary....If this make sense to anyone, there is so much we can go back to and write things off. Just put a line through them. Christ said He desired that everybody would be save...lets write the whole process of salvation off....even belief...why not change that too....it does not matter what the scriptures say, it does not matter what the apostles believed or the ECF's...just write it all off if Christ's words so not matter, where are we with this faith. And! And how does someone as smart as you come to this conclusion?

 

[BreadOfLife]

sanctification is not water baptism. but spiritual actually we are justified then sanctified .but both work together

You're not making any sense as it pertains to the conversation we were having.
Go back and READ the last few posts - THEN reply.

 

[Ezra]

You're not making any sense as it pertains to the conversation we were having.
Go back and READ the last few posts - THEN reply.

let me explain something as clear as possible as i can.... you can either reply back to me in civil or manner .or just dont bother.. i am full aware of what the post is all about . i have put up with your insults your snide remarks . no more you pop off one more time with a insult.i promise i will report you. along with every post you make with insults . so take a chill pill act civil ..

 

[Ezra]

You're not making any sense as it pertains to the conversation we were having.
Go back and READ the last few posts - THEN reply.

↑
Nonsense.

Sanctification is PART of the process of salvation.
To say Baptism is necessary for one but not the other is contradictory.

If it's a commandment of Christ - then it's necessary . . .


{sanctification is not water baptism. but spiritual actually we are justified then sanctified .but both work together } so your not understanding your own post? sanctification being set apart. is done by the Holy Spirit but to help you out water baptism does not save you .... Jesus saves and him alone . to say water baptism is essential as in necessary to be saved .takes away the shed blood and the resurrection

 

[Hidden In Him]

I guess you know I am not Catholic.

Actually, your post made me think you might be, so thanks for clarifying : )

John 55:43.."Don't worry about baptism and communion, it is not part of salvation." This scripture is not there.

LoL. I must say, you are certainly talkative today.

Ok, let's do this then. I will treat my conversation with you as entirely separate from what I am having with Philip.
My position is this: I see them both as outward rituals intended to serve as reminders of deep spiritual truths. As such, they hold no power in and of themselves if the spiritual principles they're designed to reflect do not become realities in a believer's life.

It appears you feel they are more than this, yes? If so, what then do you believe they accomplish through observance? Philip cited Cyril in suggesting that baptism has supernatural efficacy, and I am seeking to iron out what he means by that specifically. And certainly as a Catholic he believes that communion has supernatural efficacy as well.

Do you believe they possess these things as well? If so, in what way? If not, what do you believe they accomplish in a believer's life?

 

[Grailhunter]

Actually, your post made me think you might be, so thanks for clarifying : )


LoL. I must say, you are certainly talkative today.

Ok, let's do this then. I will treat my conversation with you as entirely separate from what I am having with Philip.
My position is this: I see them both as outward rituals intended to serve as reminders of deep spiritual truths. As such, they hold no power in and of themselves if the spiritual principles they're designed to reflect do not become realities in a believer's life.

It appears you feel they are more than this, yes? If so, what then do you believe they accomplish through observance? Philip cited Cyril in suggesting that baptism has supernatural efficacy, and I am seeking to iron out what he means by that specifically. And certainly as a Catholic he believes that communion has supernatural efficacy as well.

Do you believe they possess these things as well? If so, in what way? If not, what do you believe they accomplish in a believer's life?

You said...I see them both as outward rituals intended to serve as reminders of deep spiritual truths. As such, they hold no power in and of themselves if the spiritual principles they're designed to reflect do not become realities in a believer's life.

That is fine...here is the deal...freedom of religion...I believe in that....but to suggest that what you are saying is even remotely supported in scriptures, that is another thing...Again, if you were to say to me....this is what I believe....I do not care what Christ said, I do not care what the scriptures say, I do not care what early Christians believed, I do not care what the ECF's believe, I do not care what the whole of Christianity believed...then 15, 16, or 1700 years later...you believed someone, some man some where came up with this idea. You say all that, and I am fine with your right to believe it....but..... If you say this is in the Bible -->I see them both as outward rituals intended to serve as reminders of deep spiritual truths. As such, they hold no power in and of themselves if the spiritual principles they're designed to reflect do not become realities in a believer's life. ....I will not even ask you to prove it because there is nothing close to it. Baptism and communion have power and there is no way...saved or unsaved...that it is dependent on an individuals understanding. There are places in the Bible that site belief and faith as the sole requirement for salvation....but the same person that wrote that, will explain the process.

 

[Ezra]

Baptism and communion have power and there is no way...saved or unsaved...that it is dependent on an individuals understanding. There are places in the Bible that site belief and faith as the sole requirement for salvation.

i would like to see a posting on this with scripture. i do hold to some degree

I see them both as outward rituals intended to serve as reminders of deep spiritual truths. As such, they hold no power in and of themselves if the spiritual principles they're designed to reflect do not become realities in a believer's life.

i do believe they are realities in a believer's life . see i believe in the sacredness of communion and baptism. i believe in communion it should b explained unworthy manner . before serving there should be a time of prayer between you and the Lord . baptism is more than just saying baptize in name father son holy ghost. it to should be sacred and anointed satutated in prayer , but i am willing to read your belief . see where we can find common ground and see where w agree/disagree at.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Baptism and communion have power and there is no way...saved or unsaved...that it is dependent on an individuals understanding.

You seem to be saying that both water baptism and communion have power, but it is not something we should expect to understand, yes?

To that, I'd say it's just a position that's foreign to my walk with God. Whenever I've had questions about something, I've always gone to Him in prayer and believed He would reveal it to me, according to among others the promise given in James 1:5-8.

As a result, He always has...

I don't know what else to say really, except that we appear to be diametrically opposed in our opinions when it comes to this. And it would make coming to an agreement on something like the issue discussed in this thread... utterly impossible, because I think it is understandable and you do not.

Perfectly ok. It just doesn't leave us with any common ground to continue discussing it.

 

[FHII]

Let's summarise.

In your opinion, in John 3:5, water doesn't mean water.

In my opinion, backed up by lots of evidence (some of which - by your own admittance - you didn't read), water in John 3:5 means just that - H2O

I don't recall admitting I hadn't read them. The closest thing I can find is me saying this:

"These verses clearly show otherwise. And I must have missed whatever scripture you gave that state they aren't exclusive."

This was in response to you saying that the natural and spiritual aren't exclusive despite me giving 3 verses that directly say they are. I didn't see you give any verses other than two verses where Men of God laid hands on people and they received the Holy Ghost.

That isn't quite the same thing as spiritual water which brings eternal life and physical water, is it? And it really doesn't compare well to the verses I gave where Jesus and Paul said they don't mix, does it?

Well let's compare, just to be sure.

Your verses:

Acts 8:17 KJV
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:6 KJV
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


My verses:

John 3:12 KJV
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Romans 8:5-8 KJV
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

They really don't compare well, do they?

In my opinion, backed up by lots of evidence (some of which - by your own admittance - you didn't read), water in John 3:5 means just that - H2O

Well, what else did you provide? Historical evidence? The fact that people baptized in water? I've already acknowledged that they did, and I endorse it if they are compelled to do so. I am kind of glad that you brought up Irenaeus, because I actually like what he said concerning sacred water.

In your opinion, in John 3:5, water doesn't mean water.

Well, that's wrong too! I believe it does mean water, but a greater water, which literal water simply symbolizes.

In short, to the question of whether Jesus was talking about literal or spiritual water in John 3:5, I am unconvinced by your theories and scriptural supports, as well as historical supports. When we have two types of water in the scripture (one noted for cleaning natural filth from the flesh and quenching thirty of the physical man, while the other is noted to give eternal life and quench spiritual thirst) AND noting that Jesus started he was speaking of spiritual things, I chose to believe Jesus was speaking of spiritual water in verse 3:5.

 

[Philip James]

If the baptism in the Holy Spirit gives new life to the spirit man instantaneously (which is what John 3 infers), why does water baptism not give new life to the body instantaneously?

Hello HiH,

I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking why we do not immediately have our bodies changed to glorified immortal bodies?

We do indeed receive the hope, that having died with Christ our bodies will be raised. But everything at its appointed time...

Further, having been baptized, we are prepared to be united with our Holy Husband in the Eucharist, 'the two made one flesh'
If we then, having become one flesh with HIM who has been raised from the dead and glorifed, our bodies too, will in due season be ressurected and glorified.

All are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace!

 

[FHII]

They're a package deal. The power of the Holy Spirit effects that which the water also symbolises.

Hold on... So the water is a symbol? I remember you saying that water baptism wasn't a mere symbol. I believe it is a symbol of something greater. A "mere" symbol? I do not discount that it is a powerful symbol and for whatever reason God likes symbolism.

I'd just rather look at the real thing as more important than the symbol.

But I don't think the symbolic ritual is necessary to receive the thing it represents.

By the way, do you have any reason to put forth as to why I should believe that Jesus was speaking of literal water in John 3:5? , And not that spiritual, living and sacred water?

 

[Ezra]

Further, having been baptized, we are prepared to be united with our Holy Husband in the Eucharist, 'the two made one flesh'

huh ? is this a marriage ceremony or baptism?

 

[FHII]

nice imo, fh. havent read the replies yet but imo rituals are not completely useless, until we forget what they symbolize?

Neither do I believe they are useless. And I agree that it is important to realize and remember what they symbolize.

Prayer is "useless". Bear with me in my folly... God said he knows what we have need for before we ask... He also said he knows our heart better than we do.

Giving is useless to God in that he owns the cattle on a thousand hills and said the gold (all of it) was his.

But he wants us to do it anyway. God prays and is a giver... As for baptism... He did it too. There is a dark secret in that by the way...

 

[Philip James]

I'd just rather look at the real thing as more important than the symbol.

Well here's the thing:
The Church has always taught that we receive 'the real thing ' by means of the sacrament.
In other words the sacrament actually effects, through the power of the Holy Spirit, that which it also signifies.

It is here, at baptism, that we are truly born again and become children of God.

It is to these baptismal waters that the Bride and Spirit say 'come'.

Peace be with you!

 

[Philip James]

huh ? is this a marriage ceremony or baptism?

Yes