John 3 Jesus discussion with Nicodemus

[Eternally Grateful]

So how do you "interpret" that verse Jack?

how do you interpret it?

 

[Ritajanice]

If you don't mind, I can explain it best according to Orthodox theology, that the walk of the believer is in three stages:

1) Purification: when one has already come to Christ for forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit works on them to convince them that their state does not fill that desire for God within which is directly linked to their sins remaining and they need a pure heart.

2) Illumination: whereby a second work of grace occurs and the person is born again in the Spirit. The west calls this entire sanctification but misses the last stage.

3) Theosis: whereby the Lord grants the gift of sharing in the perfection of God whenever He desires and it is not a stable state for a period of training.

It got lost in the transfer to the west of Greek to Latin then English.

Yes there are loads of scriptures that can be quoted to back it up. The early church would not have included the scriptures that back it up otherwise.

It would take me a while to do an in depth Bible study.

Thank you for explaining.

What I see here is a study of the Bible..

I never studied the Bible before I was supernaturally birthed in the Spirit...in fact I had never read a bible in my life.

So for me, I can only go by my experience...which was the living word of God, that penetrated my heart/ Spirit...it was a Living supernatural birth....God is not a book, the Bible is his Living word, he is also very much Alive in Spirit....therefore my birth was like the wind and it’s very much the living word of God as one can see in scripture.

John 3:8-16

King James Version

​

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


My testimony/ belief 100%

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Eternal,

Why is the red text so important?

Some believe it's the Spirit which automatically gives you this sight...
Man/Women must be mentally re-born to “see” the Kingdom actively and morally re-born to “enter”

This requires "developing" the mind of the Spirit through the Word and practicing it in life's experiences.

F2F

I see it as a dome, People outside can only look at it, but they can not see it.

You can not see it unless you are let inside.. Once you are inside. not only can you now see it, but you are part of it.

if we read the NT through we see this happen. the disciples kept not understanding the Mystery of the kingdom. They did not understand clearly until after Christ left. and they were born of the spirit..

 

[Hepzibah]

Thank you for explaining.

What I see here is a study of the Bible..

I never studied the Bible before I was supernaturally birthed in the Spirit...in fact I had never read a bible in my life.

So for me, I can only go by my experience...which was the living word of God, that penetrated my heart/ Spirit...it was a Living supernatural birth....God is not a book, the Bible is his Living word, he is also very much Alive in Spirit....therefore my birth was like the wind and it’s very much the living word of God as one can see in scripture.

My testimony/ belief 100%

Yes that was my experience as well in the supernatural birth after atheism when my whole world was turned upside down and all of the questions I had thought about were answered. But as I have posted elsewhere, it took 17 years for me to be crying out to the Lord for an answer to my failures in the Christian walk and He answered with a baptism in the Spirit (no tongues).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In Greece, there is a period when the blistering sun goes down, between 6 - 8 pm in both summer and winter, that people will don their best attire and go for a stroll with their families having been generally stuck inside during the heat of the day. Then often they will meet up with friends to frequent the many restaurants for the evening meal. That part of the day would be called evening, from what I can gather. Then when they go home it is night time. I am assuming it will/was be the same in Israel. Besides which, Jesus would also be out in the evening like everyone else as this was the socializing time.

So Nicodemus avoided the crowds and came to see Jesus late at night, calling Him Rabi or teacher, showing respect and faith in His teachings. He confessed his faith in Him by saying that he believed He came from God due to the miracles. This man was a covert believer. Jesus may already have known about him.

He had come to Jesus for guidance, obviously. Jesus saw that he man was living a double life which caused his problems. He would have been constantly watching his tongue amongst the other Jews and even more so when he was a leader. What a terrible life!

Can you show this from the bible?

Jesus had an answer for him: besides being born of water, which I am thinking is the baptism of repentance by John, he must also have the Spirit baptism to end his conflict. Then he would be fully prepared for his destiny if need be - killed by the Jews. Born two times in the spiritual realm, two blessings. This fits perfectly with the theology of the early church. So born-again has a different meaning to that which is ascribed by western commentators.

I do not think born of water is baptism. if it was, When Jesus told Nicodemus HOW to be born again, He would have told him to be baptized as part of the process.

Nicodemus is venerated by the Orthodox church as a saint and has his feast day. There are also writings about him outside of the canon of scripture which back up what I have said. Later theologies have taken him to be unsaved just because he was still a leader of the Jews and think that Jesus is calling a born again someone who has first come to Christ but this does not fit with reality whereas there is a second work of grace required which Orthodoxy call Illumination.

Nicodemus supplied the aloes for the burial of Jesus obviously being a rich man and we do not know what became of him after that. We have a great lesson to learn by him though.

I do know that most if not all here will disagree with me and please, I do not need convincing of the official view as I used to hold it so no debate thanks. I am merely stating my opinion which is backed up by the way by the early church.

if possible. I would like to just let us discuss what we say. Not what a particular church says..

what do you see it means when Jesus said we must be born again.. and why do we need born again?

thank you

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes that was my experience as well in the supernatural birth after atheism when my whole world was turned upside down and all of the questions I had thought about were answered. But as I have posted elsewhere, it took 17 years for me to be crying out to the Lord for an answer to my failures in the Christian walk and He answered with a baptism in the Spirit (no tongues).

Wow!!!..Powerful testimony there Brother!!.....Praise God!!

What a wonderful merciful God we serve....how Blessed are we to be a child of God!

 

[Hepzibah]

Can you show this from the bible?

We are able to 'read between the lines' in scripture especially knowing human nature. A covert Christian Jewish leader would be under extreme pressure to keep his faith hidden. Otherwise he would lose his job and possibly his life. We must not judge him on this as he did come to Jesus for help.

I do not think born of water is baptism. if it was, When Jesus told Nicodemus HOW to be born again, He would have told him to be baptized as part of the process.

The baptism of repentance from John was to enter into the Christian life as far as I can see. It has spiritual meaning.

what do you see it means when Jesus said we must be born again.. and why do we need born again?

I believe we must be born once more in the spiritual realm.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

As was pointed out by Jesus, the flesh and the spirit are different. Born for the second time of the flesh is impossible, so it must be a second birth in the spiritual realm.

yes.

Why must we be born into that spirit. what is the status of our spirit that demands it be born again?

 

[Hepzibah]

yes.

Why must we be born into that spirit. what is the status of our spirit that demands it be born again?

I believe it is because the first birth in the Spirit is not enough for us to be united to God as we still have that inclination to sin which stops Him from full communion with us. We have many lessons to learn first as we are so damaged.

 

[Lambano]

That whole Nic-at-night conversation has a weird non-sequitur vibe to it.

Did Jesus ever really answer Nicodemus's question regarding being born again/from above, "How can these things come to be?"

 

[JohnDB]

Actually I gave my reason why I disagreed, and agreed to disagree, I did not say anything about you.

do you understand what a discussion looks like?






this is not what a discussion looks like.. this is just an attack.. or its my way or the highway. I am not doing this in this thread. I was asked to come to another thread to discuss john 3. And i did, and the user who asked me to go did not want to discuss anything, he pushed his view, then said he has no obligation to discuss anything because in effect we were all wrong. So i opened this thread in hopes to discuss.. Since that thread (which mysteriously is no longer here) was not open for discussion by the OP.

if that is what you plan to do here we are finished

You have added words to what Jesus said.

Instead of "you must be born from above"
You have inserted "you need to become born from above"

Two completely separate statements. The idea you are upholding is Westernized ideas and speech patterns that do not exist in the Ancient Near East.

The Greek "Anothen " has never meant : anew, again, repeated or any other such nonsense....it has always meant upper, above, upper portion, and skyward in every bit of Koine Greek and Early Latin writing we have looked at in scripture and outside of scripture.

This whole "born again" notion is from a Christian marketing campaign started around 50 years ago and the erroneous translation into English has been kept for tradition and to pay homage to the early translators into English of the passage.

Nicodemus was being sarcastic with his comments. No different than Paul stating he wished that those promoting circumcision would emasculate themselves.

Read what is there...do not add or take away to God's words. He chose them very carefully....

 

[Hepzibah]

The Greek "Anothen " has never meant : anew, again, repeated or any other such nonsense....it has always meant upper, above, upper portion, and skyward in every bit of Koine Greek and Early Latin writing we have looked at in scripture and outside of scripture.

YES! A higher transaction is required.

 

[Ritajanice]

I believe it is because the first birth in the Spirit is not enough for us to be united to God as we still have that inclination to sin which stops Him from full communion with us. We have many lessons to learn first as we are so damaged.

Oh, I think I’m understanding you now @Hepzibah ...of course we were born with a spirit which came from God..is that what you mean...when we were born of flesh we were born with a spirit as well?

So we were born with a spirit....then born again in the Spirit, by the supernatural birth?

 

[Ritajanice]

YES! A higher transaction is required.

What does this mean?

 

[Hepzibah]

What does this mean?

To me it's the transaction between us and God to be admitted to the 'higher walk' or whatever which is in the words of scripture consenting to crucified with Christ or losing our lives totally so that we do whatsoever Christ requires of us, which is not required for entry into the first stage where we repent when we first come to Christ.

 

[Hepzibah]

Oh, I think I’m understanding you now @Hepzibah ...of course we were born with a spirit which came from God..is that what you mean...when we were born of flesh we were born with a spirit as well?

So we were born with a spirit....then born again in the Spirit, by the supernatural birth?

Not sure I am getting you but yes to us being born with a spirit

 

[Ritajanice]

Not sure I am getting you but yes to us being born with a spirit

Hard to explain in text I find...when you say we nee 2 Spiritual births, do you mean the flesh birth, then the Born Again birth?...which makes two births.

 

[Ritajanice]

To me it's the transaction between us and God to be admitted to the 'higher walk' or whatever which is in the words of scripture consenting to crucified with Christ or losing our lives totally so that we do whatsoever Christ requires of us, which is not required for entry into the first stage where we repent when we first come to Christ.

When you say higher walk do you mean understanding much more in the Spirit, as in God’s will, obedience, walking in the Spirit?..

Being in harmony with God’s Spirit, @Hepzibah ?

 

[Hepzibah]

Hard to explain in text I find...when you say we nee 2 Spiritual births, do you mean the flesh birth, then the Born Again birth?...which makes two births.

No it was clear that Jesus was saying the flesh and spirit cannot be combined. I mean coming to Christ first Spiritual birth then baptism in the Spirit second Spiritual birth

 

[Hepzibah]

When you say higher walk do you mean understanding much more in the Spirit, as in God’s will, obedience, walking in the Spirit?..

Being in harmony with God’s Spirit, @Hepzibah ?

Yes I guess that is so. Without sin.