John 3 Jesus discussion with Nicodemus

[Rockerduck]

The Apostle John purposefully put 7 signs in his Gospel and all conversations and signs are at least 3 levels deep. John's Apostolic gift was in this gospel and meant more. Nicodemus wasn't hiding anything, John would have said it. Many have gotten it right on the depth of the spiritual rebirth. The KJV translators used this in the translation "to be born again" to clarify the "rebirth" and make the conversation with Nicodemus logical. but the meat was explaining the rebirth.

 

[Ritajanice]

No it was clear that Jesus was saying the flesh and spirit cannot be combined. I mean coming to Christ first spiritual birth then baptism in the Spirit second spiritual birth

Oh right, ok...

Baptism in the Spirit, after we have become Born Again...is that the second birth and what does it mean?

 

[Rockerduck]

No it was clear that Jesus was saying the flesh and spirit cannot be combined. I mean coming to Christ first Spiritual birth then baptism in the Spirit second Spiritual birth

When you are Born again from above, you receive the Holy Spirit. Immediately you are in the Body of Christ. There is no in-between.

 

[Azim]

If you don't mind, I can explain it best according to Orthodox theology, that the walk of the believer is in three stages:

1) Purification: when one has already come to Christ for forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit works on them to convince them that their state does not fill that desire for God within which is directly linked to their sins remaining and they need a pure heart.

2) Illumination: whereby a second work of grace occurs and the person is born again in the Spirit. The west calls this entire sanctification but misses the last stage.

3) Theosis: whereby the Lord grants the gift of sharing in the perfection of God whenever He desires and it is not a stable state for a period of training.

It got lost in the transfer to the west of Greek to Latin then English.

Yes there are loads of scriptures that can be quoted to back it up. The early church would not have included the scriptures that back it up otherwise.

It would take me a while to do an in depth Bible study.

I have never heard of being born twice in the spirit. I have no reason to doubt you on that. It did make me think of something. When I was born again in 2019, I returned back to my home church later that year to serve there again. When I shared with the pastor about my experience, he thought it was just a powerful filling of the spirit, and not being born again, lol. He probably assumed I had already been born again long before, along with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Though, my experience would say otherwise. However, I wonder if people view a second born again experience as a powerful filling of the spirit instead?

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes I guess that is so. Without sin.

We have to get to that place as we walk in faith I believe...God knows “ NOW” that it’s my heart desire to know him more and he’s granting me that as we speak.

We can’t fool God, he knows exactly what’s in our hearts...

I was very wrapped up in the world even as a Born Again...I don’t want that anymore, it’s so boring, all about status, power, money, material items, vanity.etc.

 

[Rockerduck]

I have never heard of being born twice in the spirit. I have no reason to doubt you on that. It did make me think of something. When I was born again in 2019, I returned back to my home church later that year to serve there again. When I shared with the pastor about my experience, he thought it was just a powerful filling of the spirit, and not being born again, lol. He probably assumed I had already been born again long before, along with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Though, my experience would say otherwise. However, I wonder if people view a second born again experience as a powerful filling of the spirit instead?

There is a powerful infilling of the Spirit after you are born Again and have the Holy Spirit. I call it turbo charging the Holy Spirit. This is when you start having visions and dreams.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I may not have been clear so just in case, I mean that two spiritual births are required not a physical plus a spiritual. That does not make sense to me.

2 spiritual births?

this does not make sense to me.

Did the spirit die twice?

 

[Ritajanice]

This is commentary from Got.. @Hepzibah about Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
For me there is only one spiritual birth, then we are permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit...we start our journey, getting closer and closer in maturity with God and we become more and more like Jesus, as we are being made into his image, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

​

What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?​

ANSWER

The baptism of the Holy Spirit may be defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was predicted by John the Baptist (Mark 1:8) and by Jesus before He ascended to heaven: “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:5). This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4); for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun.

 

[Hepzibah]

When you are Born again from above, you receive the Holy Spirit. Immediately you are in the Body of Christ. There is no in-between.

I agree that we receive the Holy Spirit at the first encounter with Christ but we are not baptized or saturated. He cannot dwell within us if we still sin though he is with us.

 

[Hepzibah]

2 spiritual births?

this does not make sense to me.

Did the spirit die twice?

Please keep in mind I am working through this not presenting it as dogma. One spiritual birth on one level and then the higher birth if we consent to the crucifixion.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you don't mind, I can explain it best according to Orthodox theology, that the walk of the believer is in three stages:

1) Purification: when one has already come to Christ for forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit works on them to convince them that their state does not fill that desire for God within which is directly linked to their sins remaining and they need a pure heart.

Can you share bible verses?

2) Illumination: whereby a second work of grace occurs and the person is born again in the Spirit. The west calls this entire sanctification but misses the last stage.

Illumination. When the light comes on is this what you mean? this would be the act of God drawing you to him, and the lights comming on so you understand what it means..

3) Theosis: whereby the Lord grants the gift of sharing in the perfection of God whenever He desires and it is not a stable state for a period of training.

Again, can you share scripture. I have never heard of this before.

Jesus said whoever believes will never perish and live forever.. this is what it means to be born again does it not?

It got lost in the transfer to the west of Greek to Latin then English.

Yes there are loads of scriptures that can be quoted to back it up. The early church would not have included the scriptures that back it up otherwise.

It would take me a while to do an in depth Bible study.

it would be worth your while to do this..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thank you for explaining.

What I see here is a study of the Bible..

I never studied the Bible before I was supernaturally birthed in the Spirit...in fact I had never read a bible in my life.

So for me, I can only go by my experience...which was the living word of God, that penetrated my heart/ Spirit...it was a Living supernatural birth....God is not a book, the Bible is his Living word, he is also very much Alive in Spirit....therefore my birth was like the wind and it’s very much the living word of God as one can see in scripture.

John 3:8-16​

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King James Version​

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8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


My testimony/ belief 100%

I have not got here yet

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes that was my experience as well in the supernatural birth after atheism when my whole world was turned upside down and all of the questions I had thought about were answered. But as I have posted elsewhere, it took 17 years for me to be crying out to the Lord for an answer to my failures in the Christian walk and He answered with a baptism in the Spirit (no tongues).

so when did you get saved (recieve the baptism of the spirit?)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We are able to 'read between the lines' in scripture especially knowing human nature. A covert Christian Jewish leader would be under extreme pressure to keep his faith hidden. Otherwise he would lose his job and possibly his life. We must not judge him on this as he did come to Jesus for help.

I agree with this part. I was asking about the other thing you mentioned. about His sins..

The baptism of repentance from John was to enter into the Christian life as far as I can see. It has spiritual meaning.

I agree, it does have a meaning, it was to turn the people if Israel to the one who was coming, and prepare the way for them

Thats why he demanded proof from the pharisees that they had recieved remission before he would baptize them (he knew they had not repented)

I believe we must be born once more in the spiritual realm.

but why? what is dead that needs brought to life?

 

[Ritajanice]

I have not got here yet

I’m slow on the uptake, what do you mean...or are you funning me?....as in hahaha.....I think you are miles ahead of me, especially regarding scripture.

I swear I’m still on milk, what does meat of the word mean?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I believe it is because the first birth in the Spirit is not enough for us to be united to God as we still have that inclination to sin which stops Him from full communion with us. We have many lessons to learn first as we are so damaged.

When did the first birth in the spirit take place?

Sorry, I ask alot of questions to understand..lol

 

[Hepzibah]

@Ritajanice

I count the ante nicene fathers as having much more credibility regarding Bible interpretation. As has already been pointed out in this discussion, there have been things lost in translation to the west and just look at he mess it is in with 40K denominations.

They do not agree with you on gradual sanctification. If you push me lol I will find some quotes.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That whole Nic-at-night conversation has a weird non-sequitur vibe to it.

Did Jesus ever really answer Nicodemus's question regarding being born again/from above, "How can these things come to be?"

yes he did..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

YES! A higher transaction is required.

what transaction is this?

 

[Hepzibah]

so when did you get saved (recieve the baptism of the spirit?)

Came to Christ at age 23 after atheism, received the Holy Spirit aged 40.