John 3 Jesus discussion with Nicodemus

[Eternally Grateful]

Finished..

since it is forever, and we are born again forever (our perfection is in Christ)

thats why we are perfected forever by that one sacrifice (the cross)

yet we are daily being sanctified.

Perfected

to make complete, to finish, to perfect..

this is what the cross did to those who are saved by it

 

[marks]

Romans 6:18-22 KJV
18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

 

[face2face]

I am confused. what does this have to do with going back into your mothers womb?

Jack reads the Word literally only so with that approach it is impossible to discern the Lords word.

 

[face2face]

so going back into your mothers womb is symbolic? how?

I think you are missing the point I was making to Jack. Being born again has nothing to do with returning to the womb.

 

[face2face]

again, have you read John 3? it does not appear you have.

this is a thread about Jesus conversation with Nicodemus.. Can you discuss it?

Sure, what would you like to know about their exchange?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jack reads the Word literally only so with that approach it is impossible to discern the Lords word.

The lord did not say it. Nicodemus did. And he meant it literally

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think you are missing the point I was making to Jack. Being born again has nothing to do with returning to the womb.

I think you missed the point. Jack never insisted it did. You put this on him

 

[face2face]

I think you missed the point. Jack never insisted it did. You put this on him

No, we have been discussing this in another thread and he made the claim he only reads the Word literally - I saw it a good opportunity to show him this approach is wrong...to which you would agree also. He has this habit of copying and pasting the same taunting posts over and over so I thought I would educate him a little on how to read the Word using interpretive skills.

For instance, he believes in a rebel angel who roams the world devouring at will. Clearly this is nonsense and not the meaning of the verse however he will not be moved on this one point - if he forces literalism on the Word but choose to "pick and choose" what he will interpret and what he will not, then he leaves himself open to criticism - which is what I have given him.

This is not difficult Eternal...only those "hard headed" Christians like Jack who are lazy will find it so.

F2F

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sure, what would you like to know about their exchange?

I shared my thoughts. Do you have anything to say?

 

[face2face]

again, have you read John 3? it does not appear you have.

this is a thread about Jesus conversation with Nicodemus.. Can you discuss it?

Here is a question for you. (@Lambano)

Why did the Master introduce the Serpent on the pole account to Nicodemus?

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up Jn 3:14.

What would have impressed the Master in Israel of the True Masters teaching? It's not plainly obvious and doubtless it was this lesson which converted Nicodemus!

F2F

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, we have been discussing this in another thread and he made the claim he only reads the Word literally - I saw it a good opportunity to show him this approach is wrong...to which you would agree also. He has this habit of copying and pasting the same taunting posts over and over so I thought I would educate him a little on how to read the Word using interpretive skills.

For instance, he believes in a rebel angel who roams the world devouring at will. Clearly this is nonsense and not the meaning of the verse however he will not be moved on this one point - if he forces literalism on the Word but choose to "pick and choose" what he will interpret and what he will not, then he leaves himself open to criticism - which is what I have given him.

This is not difficult Eternal...only those "hard headed" Christians like Jack who are lazy will find it so.

F2F

I know what you were doing, I am trying to show you your approach failed. Because nicodemus literally asked jesus if he was supposed to return to his mothers womb..

And I ask for no attacks in this thread please.. You should not call people hard headed, when you are being hard headed yourself.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Here is a question for you. (@Lambano)

Why did the Master introduce the Serpent on the pole account to Nicodemus?

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up Jn 3:14.

What would have impressed the Master in Israel of the True Masters teaching? It's not plainly obvious and doubtless it was this lesson which converted Nicodemus!

F2F

I shared and explained this in post # 108.. did you not read my posts?

post #108

Nicodemus response.

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

Jesus answer

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

Why did Jesus mention this event, what does it mean, we must investigate

Numbers 21: 4 Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. 5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” 6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

So what is going on here?

1. The people were getting bit. which was a death sentence.. they were dieing
2. God told Moses to place a serpent on a pole
those who looked were basically born again (their death sentence was revoked you could say, they lived)]
3. Those who did not died. or in other words. nothing change, they suffered the fate of death that was going to happen anyway

so why did people look and why did they not look?

we have to remember the deep stress these people where in. people were dieing all around them. there was no hope for anyone, they could not save themselves..

1 The ones who did look, they had to repent and believe. they had to trust That God would keep his word.

2. The ones who did not. why did they not believe? I feel there are many reasons

1. They did not believe God would save them

2. They thought it was to easy, just look at this pole and I will live.. what a joke
3. They did not think they were in danger.. many do not see their need until it is too late
4. They thought they could save themselves.. or were ok. and did not need God

is this not how the world reacts to the cross??

 

[face2face]

Nicodemus response.

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

Jesus answer

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

Why did Jesus mention this event, what does it mean, we must investigate

Numbers 21: 4 Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. 5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” 6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

So what is going on here?

1. The people were getting bit. which was a death sentence.. they were dieing
2. God told Moses to place a serpent on a pole
those who looked were basically born again (their death sentence was revoked you could say, they lived)]
3. Those who did not died. or in other words. nothing change, they suffered the fate of death that was going to happen anyway

so why did people look and why did they not look?

we have to remember the deep stress these people where in. people were dieing all around them. there was no hope for anyone, they could not save themselves..

1 The ones who did look, they had to repent and believe. they had to trust That God would keep his word.

2. The ones who did not. why did they not believe? I feel there are many reasons

1. They did not believe God would save them

2. They thought it was to easy, just look at this pole and I will live.. what a joke
3. They did not think they were in danger.. many do not see their need until it is too late
4. They thought they could save themselves.. or were ok. and did not need God

is this not how the world reacts to the cross??

So you have identified with the story which is great but have you asked the question why Jesus would present it to Nicodemus? Have a real think about it...it's not immediately obvious but it would be to Nicodemus.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you have identified with the story which is great but have you asked the question why Jesus would present it to Nicodemus? Have a real think about it...it's not immediately obvious but it would be to Nicodemus.

I answered the question, and I expounded on it here

It is obvious you have not read what I said.. Here I will post this to you also.

can you respond to the points I made?

Gods answer to the sin problem. Life, new birth,

How do we receive this new life?

Belief (faith) in the work of God..

15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

Notice here is the answer Jesus gave, to the question “how can these things be”

• As the jews looked up. So we must look at the cross
• We are dead in trespasses and sins, if we look up, we will live, if not we will die the death we deserve
• Those who believe will look. Because they trust Jesus,
• Those who look will NEVER DIE, and they will LIVE FOREVER.. (this is where the plot differs. The jews died again, even though they lived.. We will never die

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

• Jesus was not sent to condemn, but to save.
• Those who believe have passed from death to life. And their condemnation is removed.
• Those who continue in unbelief is still under condemnation.

Jesus did not come to judge, but to save. (what does this tell us about God?)

More passages which confirm this

Eph 2: 2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

We were dead. now we are alive = born again

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Again, we were dead, we are made alive, born again - how? By grace through faith.

Romans 6: 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The gift of God is life - born again.

1 Cor 15: 22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

in Christ are we who are dead made alive - Born again

John 10: 28 - And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Eternal life at new birth is given by God. those who have it will never die

1 John 2: 25 - And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

Again, the eternal life of John 3 is a promise of God. given to us (believers)

1 John 5: 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Eternal life in Christ in John 3 is in his son, who died so we can have that life

1 John 15: 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Knowing we have eternal life and will never die is the key to continue in the faith. because we are secure in Christ..

 

[VictoryinJesus]

did you know God was in the temple made with hands in the begining? (his presence?)

Something was missing though, no? Why else Luke 21:5-6 if there was no imperfections found within it? ‘And as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, [6] As for these things which you behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.’

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Something was missing though, no? Why else Luke 21:5-6 if there was no imperfections found within it? ‘And as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, [6] As for these things which you behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.’

Yes, In jesus day, the presence of God had long since left the temple.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, In jesus day, the presence of God had long since left the temple.

Still just an opinion but the ark made with hands is symbolic of the Law, shut up until Faith came, shut up to Faith (Christ)which should afterwards be revealed. Within the ark made with hands was a son that wanted to get his father naked …I don’t think that means sexually but a son who wanted to expose his drunkenness. There is a verse that speaks of giving a brother the bottle to drink so you can expose his (naked)drunkenness. It’s a shame. I view it as wanting to boast in his (a brothers) sins to shout “see here his drunkenness” to divert attention away from his own drunkenness in making his brother appear naked. This and other things we see happen in an ark that could only save a few. Yet it (the ark made with hands) was still not able to make any perfect because of being weak through the flesh. If that isn’t the law which was weak through the flesh…or should I say the sin found in it through the flesh was its weakness…none of that fits the Ark which is Christ where He demonstrated the love if God in He died for us while we were yet sinners. Total opposite of the ark made with hands. Christ made without hands…1 John 3:15-17 Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. [16] Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. [17] But whoso has this world's good, and sees his brother have need, and shuts up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwells the love of God in him?

The door of the ark made with hands is now shut up…my question then is did the Ark made with hands have eternal life abiding in the ark made with hands?

Imo it can’t be both…yes that made with hands had Life abiding in it.
And also For the Ark of God made without hands..has Life abiding in Him. Which is it? Are we made or created perfect by and through the law. Or by and through Christ?

the ark made with hands, or the Ark made without hands.?
The temple made with hands, or the Temple made without hands… ‘God doesn’t dwell in temples made with hands’?
Fulfill all the law, or Faith in Christ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Still just an opinion but the ark made with hands is symbolic of the Law, shut up until Faith came, shut up to Faith (Christ)which should afterwards be revealed. Within the ark made with hands was a son that wanted to get his father naked …I don’t think that means sexually but a son who wanted to expose his drunkenness. There is a verse that speaks of giving a brother the bottle to drink so you can expose his (naked)drunkenness. It’s a shame. I view it as wanting to boast in his (a brothers) sins to shout “see here his drunkenness” to divert attention away from his own drunkenness in making his brother appear naked. This and other things we see happen in an ark that could only save a few. Yet it (the ark made with hands) was still not able to make any perfect because of being weak through the flesh. If that isn’t the law which was weak through the flesh…or should I say the sin found in it through the flesh was its weakness…none of that fits the Ark which is Christ where He demonstrated the love if God in He died for us while we were yet sinners. Total opposite of the ark made with hands. Christ made without hands…1 John 3:15-17 Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. [16] Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. [17] But whoso has this world's good, and sees his brother have need, and shuts up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwells the love of God in him?

The door of the ark made with hands is now shut up…my question then is did the Ark made with hands have eternal life abiding in the ark made with hands?

Imo it can’t be both…yes that made with hands had Life abiding in it.
And also For the Ark of God made without hands..has Life abiding in Him. Which is it? Are we made or created perfect by and through the law. Or by and through Christ?

the ark made with hands, or the Ark made without hands.?
The temple made with hands, or the Temple made without hands… ‘God doesn’t dwell in temples made with hands’?
Fulfill all the law, or Faith in Christ?

What did the sacrifices which the high priest poured the blood on the ark represent?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What did the sacrifices which the high priest poured the blood on the ark represent?

What does circumcision for a man represent? Can the two be compared one symbolic and not able to make one perfect because if that is the case doctors do well circumcising infants…or the circumcision of Christ in the removal of the vail that is over the heart(active, changes everything). So are you saying the blood spilled by the high priest on the ark is the same as Christ’s shed blood? Because animals blood spilled can do nothing to make one clean. I get what you are saying …it’s a symbol. but that is the point I’m trying to also make, of the ark made with hands that it lacked same as animal sacrifices lacked. question is what does(did) it lack?

 

[amigo de christo]

what was Jesus problem?

exactly my friend . exactly .