John 6 and the bread from heaven

[Eternally Grateful]

You are a fascinating person EG. You allege that Ziggy said the exact same thing I said. You then post your "evidence" which shows that once again....well, I can't call you a liar.....It shows once again that you are not an honest person.

Here is what Marymog said: Jesus was a teacher of the Truth. He then taught the Apostles the Truth. They then taught other men the Truth. Those men then taught other men the Truth etc etc etc.

Here is what Ziggy said: Jesus IS Truth. Jesus taught the Apostles that He IS the Truth, the Apostle taught other men that Jesus IS the Truth.

Those are NOT 'the exact same thing'. I said Jesus taught the Truth!! Ziggy said that Jesus taught the Apostles that HE is the Truth. Not the same. Not even close. I am speaking about ALL the Truth spoken of in Scripture. Ziggy is speaking of Jesus BEING the Truth....whatever that means.

Please leave me alone until you are willing to have an honest conversation.......

Jesus said he is the truth,So where you say he taught Ythe truth or he is the truth, it is literally the same thing

Leave you alone? I never bothered you. I invited you hear to prove that I could read John 6 without a teacher and totally understand it

You have failed to prove me wrong.. If anything, you have made my faith stronger.

Thank you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There are other hungers- for love, for immortality for life, for affection, for being cared, for forgiveness, for mercy. This hunger can be satiated only by the bread that comes from above. Jesus himself is the living bread that gives life to the world (cf. Jn 6:51). His body offered for our sake on the cross, his blood shed for the pardon of the sins of humanity is made available to us in the bread and wine to the Eucharist transformed in the consecration.

But the Eucharist does not end with the partaking of the bread and blood of the Lord. It leads us to solidarity with others. The communion with the Lord is necessarily a communion with our fellow brothers and sisters. And therefore the one who is fed and nourished by the very body and blood of Christ cannot remain unaffected when he sees his brothers suffering want and hunger. (Homily for the Feast of Corpus Christi, 5-30-13)

Therefore the Eucharistic Celebration is much more than simple banquet: it is exactly the memorial of Jesus’ Paschal Sacrifice, the mystery at the centre of salvation. “Memorial” does not simply mean a remembrance, a mere memory; it means that every time we celebrate this Sacrament we participate in the mystery of the passion, death and resurrection of Christ. The Eucharist is the summit of God’s saving action: the Lord Jesus, by becoming bread broken for us, pours upon us all of his mercy and his love, so as to renew our hearts, our lives and our way of relating with him and with the brethren. . . . the bread that is the Body of Jesus Christ who saves us, forgives us, unites us to the Father. (General Audience, 2-5-14)

Jesus underlines that he has not come into this world to give something, but to give himself, his life, as nourishment for those who have faith in Him. . . . Every time that we participate in Holy Mass and we are nourished by the Body of Christ, the presence of Jesus and of the Holy Spirit acts in us, shaping our hearts, communicating an interior disposition to us that translates into conduct according to the Gospel. (Angelus for the Feast of Corpus Christi, 6-22-14)

In the Eucharist Jesus does not give just any bread, but the bread of eternal life, he gives Himself, offering Himself to the Father out of love for us. (Angelus, 8-13-14)

The Eucharist is Jesus who gives himself entirely to us. To nourish ourselves with him and abide in him through Holy Communion, if we do it with faith, transforms our life into a gift to God and to our brothers… eating him, we become like him. . . . [the Eucharist] is not a private prayer or a beautiful spiritual experience . . . it is a memorial, namely, a gesture that actualizes and makes present the event of the death and resurrection of Jesus: the bread is truly his Body given, the wine is truly is Blood poured out. (Angelus, 8-16-15; Catholic News Agency)

It’s not just a memory, no, it’s more: It’s making present what happened twenty centuries ago. . . . This is Mass: entering in this Passion, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus, and when we go to Mass, it is as if we go to Calvary. Now imagine if we went to Calvary—using our imagination—in that moment, knowing that that man there is Jesus. Would we dare to chit-chat, take pictures, make a little scene? No! Because it’s Jesus! We would surely be in silence, in tears, and in the joy of being saved… Mass is experiencing Calvary, it’s not a show. (General Audience, Crux, 11-22-17)

No, Pope Francis Did Not Deny Transubstantiation

The pope uses phenomenological language about the Eucharist, without in the least denying transubstantiation. So did Jesus, Paul, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. No biggie . . .

www.patheos.com

Would you like to discuss John 6?

 

[Cassandra]

I don't know how there is a Victim for an over and over sacrifice, when the Bible plainly says that Jesus died once!

1 Peter 3:18​

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

Hebrews 9:26-28​

For then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen

In john 6, He said do this and you will never die (future)

at the last supper. He said do this OFTEN in remembrance of me (Past)

they don‘t match, they are not the same

 

[Philip James]

I don't know how there is a Victim for an over and over sacrifice, when the Bible plainly says that Jesus died once!

Indeed,

We offer that which our Father in His Goodness, has given us; the Lamb, Who once was slain and now lives forever!

Through Him and with Him and in Him,

in the unity of the Holy Spirit,

all Glory and Honour are Yours!
Almighty Father!

Forever and ever!

This offering is the fulfillment of Malachi 1:11 , and has been recognized as such by the Church from the very beginning..

1. On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;
2. But let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled.
3. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, "In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king," saith the Lord, "and my name is wonderful among the heathen."

~The Didache~

Maranatha

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Fact check. Malachi 11

Polluted Offerings​

6 “A son honors his father,
And a servant his master.
If then I am the Father,
Where is My honor?
And if I am a Master,
Where is My reverence?
Says the Lord of hosts
To you priests who despise My name.
Yet you say, ‘In what way have we despised Your name?’

7 “You offer defiled food on My altar,
But say,
‘In what way have we defiled You?’
By saying,
‘The table of the Lord is contemptible.’
8 And when you offer the blind as a sacrifice,
Is it not evil?
And when you offer the lame and sick,
Is it not evil?
Offer it then to your governor!
Would he be pleased with you?
Would he accept[d] you favorably?”
Says the Lord of hosts.

9 “But now entreat God’s favor,
That He may be gracious to us.
While this is being done by your hands,
Will He accept you favorably?”
Says the Lord of hosts.
10 “Who is there even among you who would shut the doors,
So that you would not kindle fire on My altar in vain?
I have no pleasure in you,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“Nor will I accept an offering from your hands.
11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down,
My name shall be great among the Gentiles;
In every place incense shall be offered to My name,
And a pure offering;
For My name shall be great among the nations,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

12 “But you profane it,
In that you say,
‘The table of the [e]Lord is defiled;
And its fruit, its food, is contemptible.’
13 You also say,
‘Oh, what a weariness!’
And you sneer at it,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
“And you bring the stolen, the lame, and the sick;
Thus you bring an offering!
Should I accept this from your hand?”
Says the Lord.
14 “But cursed be the deceiver
Who has in his flock a male,
And takes a vow,
But sacrifices to the Lord what is blemished—
For I am a great King,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“And My name is to be feared among the nations.

This is talking about animal sacrifices. and the fact the priests are bringing blemished lambs to the alter

The same thing Jesus accused the people in the temple

It has nothign to do with any eucharistic offering whatsoever.

 

[Illuminator]

There are other hungers- for love, for immortality for life, for affection, for being cared, for forgiveness, for mercy. This hunger can be satiated only by the bread that comes from above. Jesus himself is the living bread that gives life to the world (cf. Jn 6:51). His body offered for our sake on the cross, his blood shed for the pardon of the sins of humanity is made available to us in the bread and wine to the Eucharist transformed in the consecration.

But the Eucharist does not end with the partaking of the bread and blood of the Lord. It leads us to solidarity with others. The communion with the Lord is necessarily a communion with our fellow brothers and sisters. And therefore the one who is fed and nourished by the very body and blood of Christ cannot remain unaffected when he sees his brothers suffering want and hunger. (Homily for the Feast of Corpus Christi, 5-30-13)

Therefore the Eucharistic Celebration is much more than simple banquet: it is exactly the memorial of Jesus’ Paschal Sacrifice, the mystery at the centre of salvation. “Memorial” does not simply mean a remembrance, a mere memory; it means that every time we celebrate this Sacrament we participate in the mystery of the passion, death and resurrection of Christ. The Eucharist is the summit of God’s saving action: the Lord Jesus, by becoming bread broken for us, pours upon us all of his mercy and his love, so as to renew our hearts, our lives and our way of relating with him and with the brethren. . . . the bread that is the Body of Jesus Christ who saves us, forgives us, unites us to the Father. (General Audience, 2-5-14)

Jesus underlines that he has not come into this world to give something, but to give himself, his life, as nourishment for those who have faith in Him. . . . Every time that we participate in Holy Mass and we are nourished by the Body of Christ, the presence of Jesus and of the Holy Spirit acts in us, shaping our hearts, communicating an interior disposition to us that translates into conduct according to the Gospel. (Angelus for the Feast of Corpus Christi, 6-22-14)

In the Eucharist Jesus does not give just any bread, but the bread of eternal life, he gives Himself, offering Himself to the Father out of love for us. (Angelus, 8-13-14)

The Eucharist is Jesus who gives himself entirely to us. To nourish ourselves with him and abide in him through Holy Communion, if we do it with faith, transforms our life into a gift to God and to our brothers… eating him, we become like him. . . . [the Eucharist] is not a private prayer or a beautiful spiritual experience . . . it is a memorial, namely, a gesture that actualizes and makes present the event of the death and resurrection of Jesus: the bread is truly his Body given, the wine is truly is Blood poured out. (Angelus, 8-16-15; Catholic News Agency)

It’s not just a memory, no, it’s more: It’s making present what happened twenty centuries ago. . . . This is Mass: entering in this Passion, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus, and when we go to Mass, it is as if we go to Calvary. Now imagine if we went to Calvary—using our imagination—in that moment, knowing that that man there is Jesus. Would we dare to chit-chat, take pictures, make a little scene? No! Because it’s Jesus! We would surely be in silence, in tears, and in the joy of being saved… Mass is experiencing Calvary, it’s not a show. (General Audience, Crux, 11-22-17)

No, Pope Francis Did Not Deny Transubstantiation

The pope uses phenomenological language about the Eucharist, without in the least denying transubstantiation. So did Jesus, Paul, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. No biggie . . .

www.patheos.com

The silence is deafening.

 

[Mr E]

The silence is deafening.

I agree.

The Vatican said Monday that Pope Francis had allowed priests to bless same-sex couples, his most definitive step yet to make the Roman Catholic Church more welcoming to L.G.B.T.Q. Catholics and more reflective of his vision of a more pastoral, and less rigid, church.

Pope Francis Allows Priests to Bless Same-Sex Couples

A church official said the blessings amounted to “a real development” that nevertheless did not amend “the traditional doctrine of the church about marriage.”

www.nytimes.com

 

[Marymog]

Jesus said he is the truth,So where you say he taught Ythe truth or he is the truth, it is literally the same thing

Leave you alone? I never bothered you. I invited you hear to prove that I could read John 6 without a teacher and totally understand it

You have failed to prove me wrong.. If anything, you have made my faith stronger.

Thank you

Dear Dear EG,

I am sure Ziggy appreciates you going to bat for him/her and having their back. But your logic is not logical.

Jesus says to his Apostles, "I am the Truth" and walks away. Says nothing else. Did he tell them THE TRUTH EG??? NO, he did not.

Jesus says to his Apostles, "Here is the Truth" and then tells them the Truth for the next several hours, days, MONTHS!!

BIG DIFFERENCE KIDDO......

Now I get it. You don't want to admit you are wrong. You want to find any way that you can poke the eye of Marymog because I have roundly defeated your theories and your twisting of Scripture. I hurt your feelings....I get it.

Yes, leave me alone. It is because of dishonest posts LIKE THIS ONE that I want you to leave me alone.

I have quoted you from MULTIPLE POSTS you telling me that we can only use John 6 in our discussion.......even though you say that you never said that. I know I can't call you a liar soooooo lets just say you are not being completely truthful, telling a fib, twisting your own words....whatever you want to call it.

The sad part about it; You asked me to show you, and I did. Yet you still have not apologized. And I know you won't because you have to much narcasitic pride.

So sad for you and your character.....You should take another hour and half drive and think about it....Maybe you will eventually be at peace.

Peace out EG.....Marymog

 

[Marymog]

No one has proven me wrong

I take jesus literally..

It’s not my interpretation. Its what God said

Lol....You take Jesus literally?????

As per our previous discussions you don't take Jesus literally; Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan!

AND

Do you take this literally? He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body..." NO, you don't.

AND

You don't take God's chosen messengers literally; The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

So, once again, I have proved you wrong.....I can't say liar.....but I can say I proved what you are saying wrong! You don't take Jesus literally.

You interpret His words into what YOU believe they mean and then tell everyone else they are wrong!

Keeping it real by bringing up your own statements to prove you wrong......Mary

PS: You do know this website has a search feature? I can fact check everything you say you said. So far, every fact check of you has proven you to be twisting the truth a little bit kiddo.

 

[Marymog]

No one has proven me wrong

I take jesus literally..

It’s not my interpretation. Its what God said

Lol....NO ONE has proven you wrong????????????

Even though you have PREVIOUSLY ADMITTED that others have 'changed your view' about Scripture??? But no one has proven you wrong......Prophet Eternally; Grateful?


But I get it....You will try to weasel your way out of that by twisting it into some weird defense of what you REALLY said which will once again prove (to you at least) that you never said that...........You are killing me EG.....just killing me!! A thousand papercuts of twisting and turning like a pretzel, not remembering what you say day to day and half-truths etc etc!!

Keeping it real by repeating your own words to prove you wrong........Mary

 

[Marymog]

We will start in John 3.

Who is the message to in John 3? Nicodemus

what is the message.

1. If you want to enter the kingdom, you must be born again (made a child of God)

Nope EG, it doesn't say that. That passage does not say that when one is born again they are made a child of God. That is YOUR interpretation. EVERYONE (Jew, agnostic, Atheist, Muslim etc.) is a child of God from conception. Here is what it says: “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

If you want to debate what He REALLY said, count me in. If you want to debate your interpretation without actually quoting Him....count me out.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nope EG, it doesn't say that. That passage does not say that when one is born again they are made a child of God. That is YOUR interpretation. EVERYONE (Jew, agnostic, Atheist, Muslim etc.) is a child of God from conception. Here is what it says: “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

If you want to debate what He REALLY said, count me in. If you want to debate your interpretation without actually quoting Him....count me out.

It is time to stop.

You have proven my thesis. that sadly many people fall into.. They will believe what they are told no matter what.

You see, as I said, we can take it down to two things

one says 2 + 2 = 4 the other says 2 + 2 = 5

I imagine a school and myself as a child. going to kindergarten. where I really have no knowledge of math. That school is 30 years old. and my teacher has been teaching there since it opened. When we get to math, The teacher says 2 + 2 = 5/ Of course I do not know any better, I am just a child

the next year. I get a new teacher. and she says 2 + 2 = 4. Which of course I question because both can not be right. I go ask those I trust. they say the first teacher had been here since the start of school. She is very trusted. I should listen to her.

Of course, later, as I mature, I look and see when I put 2 items down, then add 2 more items. that 2 + 2 does really equal 4.

So what do I do. DO I keep trusting my elder. or do I look at what is in front of me and leave what I trusted. because I have matured enough so that I can look at see things that do not add up.

Sadly, this happens in all churches.. People are so sure of the people who taught them, that they can not see the truth as it stares them in the face. Like these jews. who could not get it either. Because they were still in the law. and could nto see the messiah as anything other than the one who would free them from Rome..

You do the typical thing when you look at these passage. In john 3. Water and spirit was not the thing that was important. That was the WHAT does it mean to be born again.

The most important thing is HOW to be born again.

But just like here with flesh and Blood. Jesus speaks in earthly terms.. so those who do not believe will not be able to see. They will focus on things that are not really important. and not focus on the other. so that hearing they may not hear and seeing they may not see (ie they harden their heart)

That's what happens in John 6. and that is what is happening here..

I want to thank youi for joining the discussion. You did much better than the one I opened the thread for who never even had the courage to show up.

You also did better than a few of your friends.. One ho put me on ignore in my own thread without even discussing the topic. the other who was his old self and attacks in anger, And then another one who was sad at the silence to his post (which did not have anything to do with the thread)

If you would like to discuss john 6 more. I will be free and open.. But I just can not go with this back and forth anymore, it is not going to help either of us accusing each other..

 

[Marymog]

1. Receive him
2. Through faith
3. You will be given the power to become a child of God (born again)

Yup, we must accept him thru faith before we are born again.

How is one born again? It is thru water and Spirit: “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. NOT recieiving Him thru faith.

I believe HIM not YOU!

 

[Marymog]

Of course, later, as I mature, I look and see when I put 2 items down, then add 2 more items. that 2 + 2 does really equal 4.

So what do I do. DO I keep trusting my elder. or do I look at what is in front of me and leave what I trusted. because I have matured enough so that I can look at see things that do not add up.

Yup, YOU are once again RIGHT! You always are and always will be!

Sooooo help me out here EG. Scripture says, Obey your elders and submit to them for they watch out for your souls.

Where does Scripture say once YOU become more mature than your elders then YOU can stop trusting your them because what they are saying just doesn't add up but what YOU have interpreted does add up?

I patiently await your evidence from Scripture that supports your theory.........Mary

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This food.

Jesus opens john 6 saying do not work for food which perishes, but food which endures forever.

it is a picture.

take two servings of bread and two cups of water .

the one bread when you partake. Your body uses it to feed the body, To give its energy, and to produce power to sustain life. But if you do not continue to drink this water and bread. the bread and water will eventually lose its energy (it will die) and it will no longer serve to sustain your life..

The other bread and water. Jesus said we can eat it, and it will endure forever. You see the power it gives to sustain life can never be lost. Like the water of John 4. It flows to rivers of living water flowing to eternal life. and the food. which never perishes, keeps giving its life giving energy to sustain life. One does not have to keep eating this bread or any bread to live. He will live forever.

Now this does not need we can nto eat anymore. Only we can eat not to live, but to ENJOY,,

 

[Marymog]

You do the typical thing when you look at these passage. In john 3. Water and spirit was not the thing that was important. That was the WHAT does it mean to be born again.

The most important thing is HOW to be born again.

YOU say water and Spirit was not the thing that was important. Jesus said, Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Hummmm....MOST ASSURELY??? That means what He was about to say next WAS IMPORTANT.

Sooooooo EG, it IS important to understand HOW to be born again. For 2,000 years Christianity has taught that one is born again thru water and Spirit.....Just like Jesus said. When one is baptized in water, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit....Just like Peter said in Holy Scripture: Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I can give you 2nd century writings from leaders of The Church that say the same thing. But you reject the men who lived closest to the time of Christ and accept the men of the 16th century....Weird.

What YOU present is 16th century writings/teachings from the leaders of YOUR church that do NOT equate water baptism and Spirit.

Sooooo who should I believe?

What Scripture and the men of the 2nd century say that matches with what Scripture says? Or you and your men from the 16th century?

Tough decision here EG....Tough decision!!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yup, we must accept him thru faith before we are born again.

How is one born again? It is thru water and Spirit: “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. NOT recieiving Him thru faith.

I believe HIM not YOU!

No

thats what being born again is

Jesus told him how, when he asked, "How can these things be"

John 3: 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

That is HOW we are born again

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yup, YOU are once again RIGHT! You always are and always will be!

Sooooo help me out here EG. Scripture says, Obey your elders and submit to them for they watch out for your souls.

Where does Scripture say once YOU become more mature than your elders then YOU can stop trusting your them because what they are saying just doesn't add up but what YOU have interpreted does add up?

I patiently await your evidence from Scripture that supports your theory.........Mary

I can;t help you Mary,

Only God can

 

[Marymog]

That's what happens in John 6. and that is what is happening here..

Be honest EG and say it like it is. That's YOUR interpretation of what happened in John 6.

The 2,000 year teaching of Christianity says different.