John Darby

[farouk]

I'm not Catholic. Mary is to be respected, she was obviously a godly woman to be chosen as Christ's mother, but she was just like any other woman born to man.

@Naomi25 Luke records Mary's words: 'My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour'. Mary needed the Saviour also...

 

[farouk]

the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the building up and edification of that which growth up and remains. (Until Christ be formed in you). He said to strengthen that which remains and abides. When Paul spoke to them concerning the Lords table, he said every man takes his own before another not discerning the Lords body...one goes away drunk and staggering and another goes away hungry ...for this cause many among are sickly, weak, and sleep. he said ‘to watch’ that you be found doing? To watch and be found doing what? Watch for the thief comes...He told Peter when you are converted to ‘strengthen your brothers’ build them up in what remains and abides ...again for the thief comes to steal ‘I come that they may have Life’

@VictoryinJesus The Lord's Supper involves a healthy self-examiniation....

 

[VictoryinJesus]

1 Cor 13 says the gifts will cease at the return of Christ. nobody will need to speak in tongues when physically shaking His hand.

do not disagree. Ephesians 4:12-14 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry(the ministration of the Spirit), for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

‘watch and be sober’ ‘henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro, carried about with every wind of doctrine’

but you said you could prove how the ministration of the Spirit is partial, therefore keeping over spiritualizing under check? Or did I misunderstand. Does the vail remain where the Spirit of God is?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@VictoryinJesus The Lord's Supper involves a healthy self-examiniation....

Agree. Love Isaiah 58:4-12 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. [5] Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him ? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord ? (Ephesians 5:9-10)
6] Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose (dissolve)the bands of wickedness, to undo(untie) the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? [7] Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, (John 6:35) that thou bring the poor that are cast out (Luke 6:22) to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? [8] Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rereward. [9] Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away (remove) from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; [10] And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: [11] And the Lord shall guide thee continually, (Romans 8:14)and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. (John 4:13-14) And they that shall be of thee shall build (1 Corinthians 3:10-11)(Ephesians 2:20)
the old waste places: thou shalt raise (lift)up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

 

[Truther]

do not disagree. Ephesians 4:12-14 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry(the ministration of the Spirit), for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

‘watch and be sober’ ‘henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro, carried about with every wind of doctrine’

but you said you could prove how the ministration of the Spirit is partial, therefore keeping over spiritualizing under check? Or did I misunderstand. Does the vail remain where the Spirit of God is?

If I may elaborate. It says we prophecy in part, know in part.....

This means it is partial.

That which is part(only that) will be done away, because it is only partial, not complete.

This happens at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Then shall we know, even as we are known of each other.

 

[Keraz]

I'm curious...what Are you going to be Doing ON Earth During the Tribulation????

Dodging bullets?
Taking cover from an earthquake?
Choking on fire smoke and fumes?
Starving because of famine?
Drinking from blood filled rivers?
Getting sores and pains from biting insects?
Wishing you could die and escape the Torments, ... but Can't?
Joining the army and shooting people?
Or
Are you going to BE Preaching the Gospel of The the Lord Jesus to the left behind Jews, who rejected Jesus the Christ Messiah of Jews?

Talk Away....curious about your Purpose to be ON Earth during the Tribulation!

Taken

You display your lack of knowing what God really has planned for His people during the end times.
Revelation 12:14 says the Lord will take His faithful people to a place of safety during the 1260 days of world control by Satan.

There will be no 'left behind Jews' after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Only a remnant of Christian Jews will survive. Isaiah 29:1-4, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Jeremiah 10:18

 

[VictoryinJesus]

If I may elaborate. It says we prophecy in part, know in part.....

This means it is partial.

That which is part(only that) will be done away, because it is only partial, not complete.

This happens at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Then shall we know, even as we are known of each other.

wish I understood what you mean. One thing you said that caught my attention when you first brought this up, is where you said it is not our own but for them. I’m not disputing what you are saying. There could be validity to what you shared. I just don’t understand it. You said “However, we only get to access one small portion of it and only in a partial way.
This will be your foundation to make sure you do not over-spiritualize the verses as you just mentioned. Would you like to see what I am saying?”

I’m sorry ...still do not understand ‘However, we only get to access one small portion of it and only in a partial way.’

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

 

[farouk]

Agree. Love Isaiah 58:4-12 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. [5] Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him ? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord ? (Ephesians 5:9-10)
6] Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose (dissolve)the bands of wickedness, to undo(untie) the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? [7] Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, (John 6:35) that thou bring the poor that are cast out (Luke 6:22) to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? [8] Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rereward. [9] Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away (remove) from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; [10] And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: [11] And the Lord shall guide thee continually, (Romans 8:14)and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. (John 4:13-14) And they that shall be of thee shall build (1 Corinthians 3:10-11)(Ephesians 2:20)
the old waste places: thou shalt raise (lift)up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

@VictoryinJesus I do find the phrase 'fast for strife and debate' (Isaiah 58.4) very expressive.... can be a useful, solemn caution, right?

 

[Naomi25]

Fair enough, Naomi.
I have found, like you that to discuss issues with someone who is locked into their beliefs, as we are told people will be: Isaiah 29:9-12, 2 Thessalonians 2:11, it is a hopeless task to change their minds.
With the 'rapture to heaven' theory, when practically everyone they know does believe God will take them to heaven, for them to suddenly say they refute the rapture, they would be declared insane, or at the least ostracized.

It's not that I'm particularly opposed to people having strongly held beliefs in some doctrine or another. The problem I have is when people make these large, sweeping claims with no sound biblical proof. They throw out a couple of bible verses like its their trump card, but then, like the ostrich that buries its head in the sand, they steadfastly refuse to see that their verses must come alongside the rest of scripture. Sound exegesis. Good, biblical ideas don't happen in a vacuum. You've got to build them with the clear meaning of other scriptural texts. And you can usually tell when it's a 'pet doctrine' because hoops are jumped through to dismiss, explain away or just plain ignore all these other clear texts.

I almost feel sorry for a 'rapture' believer trying to prove that idea, as they desperately try to show scriptures that support it.
So, like you; I present the truth and leave it at that.

Mmm. I'm not sure I can accurately put into words all I feel. I think my most keen desire would be to find a Dispensationalist who is just as keen to have an in depth, back and forth "lets dig into scripture to see what it says" sort of conversation. Instead, you are usually met with veiled...or unveiled, hostility for daring to attack their belief. So...maybe its frustration and a little amazement that something so periphery to the salvific frontlines, is suddenly a cause to break fellowship.

Our Hope and our Destiny:
The Prophetic Word tells us how the Lord will save and protect His people during His terrible Day of wrath, the soon to happen Sixth Seal judgement of the nations.
Then we will be gathered and will migrate into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, are some of the best prophesies about this.

We Christians are the Lord's people, His chosen; John 15:18, 1 Peter 2:8-10, and we are the people; nation, who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43.
We will, in the holy Land be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47, Ezekiel 39:27
Basically there is no need for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses to go to heaven, Revelation 11:12, and they do not stay there, as Jesus Returns just then and they are resurrected along with all the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4

The whole idea of a rapture removal of Christians to heaven, is not part of God's plan for His people. Therefore, a body change is not necessary or logical, before the final wrap up and then all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and be with God for Eternity, when God and therefore heaven will be on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

No, I don't really see a Rapture to heaven being spoken of in scripture either. To the clouds to meet Christ? Yes. But the, I think, clear intent of those passages is for us to be meeting him on his way to earth as he returns in his clear purpose at the end of this age.

 

[farouk]

I would look at all the references to the coming of the Lord in relation to judgment on earth and His power and glory. And look also at those in relation to His coming with regard to the church. The whole backgrounds and contexts do seem to be different.

 

[Truther]

wish I understood what you mean. One thing you said that caught my attention when you first brought this up, is where you said it is not our own but for them. I’m not disputing what you are saying. There could be validity to what you shared. I just don’t understand it. You said “However, we only get to access one small portion of it and only in a partial way.
This will be your foundation to make sure you do not over-spiritualize the verses as you just mentioned. Would you like to see what I am saying?”

I’m sorry ...still do not understand ‘However, we only get to access one small portion of it and only in a partial way.’

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

No problem. I apologize if I am not articulating it the best way.

I will back up into the O.T....

God made a promise to Abraham to one day save his descendants.

God confirmed this through the Prophets such as this passage in Jer 31....


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


However, this promise has never been fulfilled to Abraham yet.

Later the church is born in Acts 2, which has no Promise of the fathers as Abraham.

The writer of Hebrews quotes the O.T. promise to Abraham in chapter 8....



8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Then 2 chapters later in chapter 10, includes the 1st century church in this part of the future promise to national Israel(Abraham's descendants).....


15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


But, we get only this particular section of the entire promise...that's it(God does not save every person nor does witnessing cease per Jer 31).

The rest is reserved for future national Israel at the beginning of the millennial reign of Jesus Christ and His return to save them... finally fulfilling his promise to Abraham.


So, in a nutshell...we are now getting a dark glass, partial glimpse into the future millennial reign of Christ....AKA, we have hitched a ride on their future promise....AKA, we are included in a partial, pre-millennial experience.

 

[Enoch111]

But the, I think, clear intent of those passages is for us to be meeting him on his way to earth as he returns in his clear purpose at the end of this age.

Can you see how absurd this would be if it were true? Oh, and Christ will simply skip the Marriage of the Lamb because it does not suit Naomi (and those who agree with her).

And how will Christ come WITH His saints if He is coming FOR His saints? There must be a verse which says that they will suddenly reverse course in mid-air. Absurdity upon absurdity.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No problem. I apologize if I am not articulating it the best way.

I will back up into the O.T....

God made a promise to Abraham to one day save his descendants.

God confirmed this through the Prophets such as this passage in Jer 31....


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


However, this promise has never been fulfilled to Abraham yet.

Later the church is born in Acts 2, which has no Promise of the fathers as Abraham.

The writer of Hebrews quotes the O.T. promise to Abraham in chapter 8....



8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Then 2 chapters later in chapter 10, includes the 1st century church in this part of the future promise to national Israel(Abraham's descendants).....


15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


But, we get only this particular section of the entire promise...that's it(God does not save every person nor does witnessing cease per Jer 31).

The rest is reserved for future national Israel at the beginning of the millennial reign of Jesus Christ and His return to save them... finally fulfilling his promise to Abraham.


So, in a nutshell...we are now getting a dark glass, partial glimpse into the future millennial reign of Christ....AKA, we have hitched a ride on their future promise....AKA, we are included in a partial, pre-millennial experience.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

 

[Truther]

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

You are welcome.

 

[Keraz]

Can you see how absurd this would be if it were true? Oh, and Christ will simply skip the Marriage of the Lamb because it does not suit Naomi (and those who agree with her).

And how will Christ come WITH His saints if He is coming FOR His saints? There must be a verse which says that they will suddenly reverse course in mid-air. Absurdity upon absurdity.

The marriage Supper will happen, we just are not told when or where. I believe it will be in Jerusalem, soon after Jesus commences His Reign, as in Revelation 19:6b There is no indication that it will be before that, or in heaven.

Jesus does not Return with the saints. He is accompanied by the armies of heaven, Rev 19:14, Matthew 16:27
Some other prophesies say; saints, but that creates a Biblical anomaly, a contradiction and the Greek word 'hagios', means 'holy ones', - angels or saints.
So where we have 2 plainly stated verses saying Jesus will Return with His angel armies, it is error to think it means saints in other prophesies. An absurdity, in fact!

 

[farouk]

Good, biblical ideas don't happen in a vacuum.

@Naomi25 This is true!

 

[Naomi25]

taking it one at a time. Just speaking for the sake of conversation and in no way saying it is right. One is) God is able of ‘these stones’ to raise up children unto Abraham. Living (Alive) stones built up and raised in Christ. Second) in the parable of the sower and the seed, there is only one good ground which bears and endures and brings forth fruit. The good ground is seed sown into the Kingdom of God(a new heart) and there the seed isn’t consumed by fowls, scorched by heat, withered, nor falls away because of it has root. As He said, Abide in Me and it is My Father’s Will there be much fruit, that where He places His name be glorified.

Do get what you are saying about the right and the left. As nations of people, or goats and sheep. Again, so often ‘I am a sheep’ , they are goats. possibly very wrong but only sharing with you a few things that stand out to me and make me consider always why God would say to cut off your right hand if it offends you. In the OT satan stood at the right hand to resist the Lord. Clever. Nobody wants the left yeah? Not even the devil. How then does Christ stand at the right hand of God and His people. Somebody got removed. Where the word speaks of those on the left and right and how ‘you didn’t visit me in prison’. Jesus Christ did not visit John the Baptist in literal prison. Instead He sent word ‘I am setting those held captive in prison Free.’ Blessed is he who is not offended in Me. If you would look at all those ‘you didn’t do’ religion and pious showy deeds are cut off, the profiting off men’s good names who think they earn a right in, as the devil in the OT stood at the right to resist the Lord with Joshua. Christ removed the devil (how) and stands at the Right hand of His people. Did the devil ever stand at the right, I would say he did.

I think, that while you have some good points here, you are confusing and conflating the imagery of 'sheep to the right' and 'Christ being at the right hand of God'. If you'll permit me to explain:
The bible is full of 'shadow' imagery and then the fulfillment. So, for example; the first Adam, and Christ, the second Adam. The first exodus, and then Christ, who came as the ultimate Passover lamb and then led his people out of the slavery of sin. Or even the basis of marriage which is an image of Christ's relationship with the church.
My point here is while the bible often uses similar imagery, it's not always appropriate to use it in exactly the same manner. So, yes, while the sheep going to the right is a 'shadow' of Christ standing at the right hand of God, it does not...cannot, mean the exact same thing. Because we see in Revelation 5:6-7 we see that to be 'at the right hand of God' basically means Christ is also seated upon God's throne, where he receives praise and glory from all the creatures about it. And in that regard, Satan was never in that place, and no human will ever be in that place.

Now who takes that place at the right of the throne of God which is where? Zechariah 3:1-4. Notice ‘plucked from the fire’ which (imo) doesn’t mean not go in the fire but pulled out from the fire because of the garments the Lord says to remove. The Lord says there I will clothe and provide him a change of raiment...put on the New Man. Any can go visit someone in a literal prison but it takes God to set Free those held spiritually captive to death and sin. Going back to those ‘you did not do’ to the goats and the sheep. Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness and said ‘turn these stones into bread’ feed yourself! and God did ‘feed yourself’ the yourself being ‘His people’ ‘His body’ at: He is the stone made bread which feeds the hungry and poor. Multiplied.

With respect, I don't think that is what Zech 3 is speaking about. Firstly, God and his throne is not present. Satan stands at the right hand of the 'one he accuses'. Secondly, Joshua is not being placed is new, clean robes because he was first abandoned to the fire and then God changed his mind. Joshua, as the High Priest, was, essentially, elected by God for a distinct purpose. The angel of the Lord is telling Satan that no matter how Satan accuses, and points to the 'filth of life', God's election is sure. It is purifying. It didn't matter that Joshua had been dragged into exile, that he had, literally 'culturally soiled'. God had called him to lead the exiles and so gave him a clean robe to do so.
So, were we to put this into new covenant, new testament language, we would say once a person received Christ, no matter the struggles and sins they fought through in their life, the 'election and calling of God is irrevocable'. It is not a case of someone who has completely rejected God and his Christ, past death, who has faced the 'unquenchable fire'...and yet been plucked out of it for their good deeds.
And yes, I agree that salvation and rescue from sin comes from God. Man cannot do it himself. However, to say that God does it to all without any sort of involvement from man, seems to me to, as I've said before, totally dismiss large, large chunks of scripture that DO talk of man's involvement. It's something we must do under the power of the Holy Spirit, but it is something we must actively participate in. Therefore all those people who remain hostile or just ambivalent to Christ would seem to me to not meet those requirements...requirements set out by God himself.

Do not know much about the two witnesses but in reading through the discussions on the two, concerning upon the right side and the left ...this stood out(have to remember John the Baptist)

Zechariah 4:11-14 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? [12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? [13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be ? And I said, No, my lord. [14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation gives us the answer to these questions:

And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. -Revelation 11:3–4

Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. -Revelation 1:12–13

As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. -Revelation 1:20

Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. -Revelation 4:4

So, Zech 4 tells us that the 'olive trees' are on either side of the 'lampstands' and that they 'stand before' the Lord of the earth. Rev 11 tells us that the 'two witnesses' are both the olive trees and the lampstands and that they, again, stand before the Lord of the Earth...so, before his throne.
Rev 1 shows us Christ standing 'in the midst'...in the center of the lampstands. And then we are told that the lampstands are the 'Churches'.
Rev 4 completes the imagery for us by telling us that 'around the throne' is 24 thrones with 24 elders seated upon them. Most biblical scholars agree that these 24 thrones represent the 12 tribes of Israel (OT) and the 12 Disciples (NT), making up the whole people of God...the elect, or the church, however you want to term the one people of God.
Basically, the imagery we're seeing here in not one of 'right or left', but of God and the Lamb in the center on the throne, with angelic beings and the people around it, praising them.
When we come to the 2 witnesses in Rev 11, many scholars believe there are only 2 represented here because in the letters to the 7 churches at the beginning of the book, there are only 2 completely faithful churches. Thus the 2 witnesses represents the faithful church as she witnesses to the world. It could also be because the bible calls for 2 witnesses to be present to make a testimony valid.
Either way, again, I don't think looking at it in a 'standing at the left of right side' is exactly what the text has in mind...it's pressing it a little hard.
But, of course, that's just my opinion.

 

[GISMYS_7]

The marriage Supper will happen, we just are not told when or where. I believe it will be in Jerusalem, soon after Jesus commences His Reign, as in Revelation 19:6b There is no indication that it will be before that, or in heaven.

Jesus does not Return with the saints. He is accompanied by the armies of heaven, Rev 19:14, Matthew 16:27
Some other prophesies say; saints, but that creates a Biblical anomaly, a contradiction and the Greek word 'hagios', means 'holy ones', - angels or saints.
So where we have 2 plainly stated verses saying Jesus will Return with His angel armies, it is error to think it means saints in other prophesies. An absurdity, in fact!

Yes!!! Jesus will return with the raptured saints to set up His kingdom here with those that were left behind and became believers after the rapture andwere able to stay alive under anti-christ rule!!

 

[Naomi25]

Can you see how absurd this would be if it were true? Oh, and Christ will simply skip the Marriage of the Lamb because it does not suit Naomi (and those who agree with her).

Well, perhaps its just me, but I like my absurdities to come with bible passages.
You say I'm absurd...and sure, maybe I am, but I am trying to have an honest, scripture for scripture conversation about this. Short, pithy replies that aim to insult my intelligence is not doing your case much good.

You see, there is not a single bible verses that tells us where or when this 'Marriage supper of the Lamb' occurs. In fact, there is really only one place in scripture that outright names it:


The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure”—

for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” -Revelation 19:6–9

What we see in this passage is that this 'marriage of the Lamb' is only 'coming', or arriving, AT the time in Revelation when Jesus cracks open the sky and returns. So, regardless whether you see Revelation as being laid out in chronological order or in a recapitulatory manner, its safe to say that right here, in this Chapter, the marriage itself could happen either in heaven right before Christ returns, or on earth immediately after it.
But my point is: its ambiguous. A case can be made for either, as it outright states neither. Which makes your outright declarations of a Church having to be in heaven a whole 7 years in advance of Christ's return because of this single event, dubious at best.

I mean...if you can provide any steadfast proof to the contrary, please do so. All I'm saying is that placing your claim...and your insults too, it seems, on a single passage that doesn't actually state what you're hanging your hat on...seems brash.

And how will Christ come WITH His saints if He is coming FOR His saints? There must be a verse which says that they will suddenly reverse course in mid-air. Absurdity upon absurdity.

I'm fairly sure I've said this before, but I can repeat it if you need to hear it.
Do you have any loved ones who have died in Christ? Where are they now? With Christ, right? Who does the bible say gets their resurrection bodies first? The dead in Christ. Right? Who are where? With Christ, right?
So...how is it such a boondoggle to wonder that AT Christ's return he'll have those faithful at his back while we, who are 'still alive' are here to witness it?
You like to do this fancy footwork with this 'with' and 'for', but the bible doesn't really do that. It just states that at his return, he will have saved at his back, and saved here on earth to witness it. Any sort of nuance Dispensationalists have added is just that...nuance...to suit what they want.

And why on earth should WE not 'reverse course' in mid-air? YOU'RE suggesting that Jesus do exactly that. Somebody's going to yo-yo, why not us, rather than Christ?

Also, I've noticed you like to pop in and make lovely little insults at vague comments of your own selecting, all the while completely ignoring the very good questions put before you. Again, this does not help your case. I think the last time I answered you I posed a very important question that any serious Dispensationalist needs to answer if they want to be taken seriously. 2 Thess 2 is devastating to a Pre-trib Rapture. And no matter how much you "what in the world is that over there!" it still doesn't change the fact that as long as you fail to deal with it, you're actually doing more to prove the invalidity of Pre-trib than I am.

 

[Davy]

Can you see how absurd this would be if it were true? Oh, and Christ will simply skip the Marriage of the Lamb because it does not suit Naomi (and those who agree with her).

And how will Christ come WITH His saints if He is coming FOR His saints? There must be a verse which says that they will suddenly reverse course in mid-air. Absurdity upon absurdity.

Per 1 Thessalonians 4, which you Pre-tribulationalists like to claim you heed, but you really do not, those still alive on earth on the day of Christ's 2nd coming are... caught up to meet Him in the air, and then the continued detail is then written in Zechariah 14 which shows where He is coming to, i.e. to the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1. And the Zechariah 14 Scripture says He brings all the saints with Him there, which is Jerusalem on earth, not in Heaven.

Per Rev.19, the marriage supper doesn't take place until after... Jesus' return to earth. The Revelation 19:1-8 verses are AFTER the Babylon harlot is destroyed. How could you miss that?

Rev 19:1-6
19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, "Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, "Alleluia." And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God That sat on the throne, saying, 'Amen; Alleluia.'
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, 'Praise our God, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great.'
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, 'Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.'
KJV

That above is about the time AFTER... God has destroyed the Babylon harlot ("the great whore"). That means after the tribulation is the timing here so far, and Christ is reigning, literally, in Person ("for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth"). This above means the Millennium timing.


Rev 19:7-9
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, 'Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.' And he saith unto me, 'These are the true sayings of God.'
KJV

Within that same Millennial timing is when that "marriage of the Lamb" takes place, not PRIOR to the destruction of the "great whore". How could anyone miss that timing?

Rev 19:10-11
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, 'See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He That sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
KJV

Then John writes how he bowed to the angel which said not to. That helps divide the 'timeline' flow of the chapter, because the next verse is about the day of Jesus' 2nd coming with His army to fight against the great whore (i.e., the beast and the wicked on earth).

So the timeline has now moved backwards at this Rev.19:11 verse, to right at the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes to destroy the "great whore".

So the Rev.19 Scripture has nothing to do with a Pre-trib Rapture theory at all. And there is nothing there showing the marriage supper takes place prior to destruction of the "great whore".