John Darby

[VictoryinJesus]

Okay, check this out in Hebrews 8(regarding future national Israel in the millennial reign of Christ, per God's promise to the fathers)....



8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

It speaks of a passage in Jer 31 regarding the nation of Israel after the return to them of Christ.

Now look at the passage in Hebrews 10...


15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


This is where we are INCLUDED in future national Israel's MILLENNIAL covenant to the fathers, but only in a partial way per 1 Cor 13...


8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


We are in a "partial" millennial experience right now, which is not our covenant, but we are hitching a ride on future national Israel's covenant. But it is not fully developed yet.

Will consider. Need to read it a couple of times again tomorrow. But in 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

is not the ‘that which is in part done away’ in Christ? 2 Corinthians 3:14-18 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. [15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. [16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. [17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[Keraz]

And your logic has about the same amount of biblical evidence.
And you know what? I'm about done with this. A person making extraordinary claims he can't or won't provide scripture with, only his own amazing observation powers, is just not worth it.
I hope, for your sake, that when Jesus comes back, that he's decided to take a form which you can see. Because, you know, based on your logic and going on bible verses it could go either way.

Fair enough, Naomi.
I have found, like you that to discuss issues with someone who is locked into their beliefs, as we are told people will be: Isaiah 29:9-12, 2 Thessalonians 2:11, it is a hopeless task to change their minds.
With the 'rapture to heaven' theory, when practically everyone they know does believe God will take them to heaven, for them to suddenly say they refute the rapture, they would be declared insane, or at the least ostracized.

I almost feel sorry for a 'rapture' believer trying to prove that idea, as they desperately try to show scriptures that support it.
So, like you; I present the truth and leave it at that.

Our Hope and our Destiny:
The Prophetic Word tells us how the Lord will save and protect His people during His terrible Day of wrath, the soon to happen Sixth Seal judgement of the nations.
Then we will be gathered and will migrate into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, are some of the best prophesies about this.

We Christians are the Lord's people, His chosen; John 15:18, 1 Peter 2:8-10, and we are the people; nation, who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43.
We will, in the holy Land be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47, Ezekiel 39:27
Basically there is no need for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses to go to heaven, Revelation 11:12, and they do not stay there, as Jesus Returns just then and they are resurrected along with all the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4

The whole idea of a rapture removal of Christians to heaven, is not part of God's plan for His people. Therefore, a body change is not necessary or logical, before the final wrap up and then all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and be with God for Eternity, when God and therefore heaven will be on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

 

[Taken]

Okay, check this out in Hebrews 8(regarding future national Israel in the millennial reign of Christ, per God's promise to the fathers)....


8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.



It speaks of a passage in Jer 31 regarding the nation of Israel after the return to them of Christ.

Now look at the passage in Hebrews 10...


15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


This is where we are INCLUDED in future national Israel's MILLENNIAL covenant to the fathers, but only in a partial way per 1 Cor 13...


8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


We are in a "partial" millennial experience right now, which is not our covenant, but we are hitching a ride on future national Israel's covenant. But it is not fully developed yet.

Thanks for sharing.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. -1 Corinthians 15:23


Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. -1 Thessalonians 5:23

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, -2 Thessalonians 2:1

For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. -2 Peter 1:16

Once again....you have ignored the fact that under your OWN criteria; the meaning of 'return' and clearly biblical proof, Jesus Christ is returning. And you have yet to prove otherwise.

I see what's happening here. Just like you're claiming that man cannot SEE Christ, YOU cannot see every time SCRIPTURE says Christ. Right?! Because if you could, and if you were reading ANY of my posts, you'd clearly see that i'd not only read it, i've been providing ample verses and proofs to you.
Fair dinkum man. It's just becoming embarrassing. But, for sake of my own thoroughness, check out the angelic host proclaiming who had just arrived on scene:



For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.- Luke 2:11

And do you know what happened after that? The shepherds took themselves off to Bethlehem and SAW a baby in a manger: who "is Christ the Lord".


Well, you ought to be. Especially in the face of so obvious proof otherwise, and your clear inability to prove otherwise. You attempt to use your 'logic' to stand against clear textual proof. If it wasn't such heresy, it'd be funny.

I was being a tad facetious. But my point was valid; by insisting that 'The Christ' never came to earth, you more or less fudge the distinction between the person's of the Son and the Father. Which is a huge, huge problem.
You laugh off the idea of providing biblical verses that back up your point, but in all honesty and seriousness now: you. have. nothing. What you have are a few verses saying that the Son of Man will be 'coming on the clouds'. What that proves is that Jesus will be returning. End of. The bible clearly shows that he calls himself that. But, as I've REPEATEDLY shown, the bible also titles him...while ON earth, as the Christ.
Until YOU provide bible verses that show that he retains that title only in heaven, all you are is hot air. I'm sorry to say that so bluntly, but you've gone on and on and I'm growing tired of providing solid biblical evidence to someone who, apparently, values his own intellect and reasoning above God's own word and revelation.

Of course. Especially when you don't defend all the stuff you did say. How silly of me to toss out some sarcasm and expect you to then address that. Although, it did give you a nice distraction to focus on so you could ignore the gaping holes in your...well...everything.

Feel Better?

Our difference is Understanding.

* Your focus is ON scripture that "says Christ" is "returning".

* Scripture reveals:
Human men can Not See God and live.

* Scripture reveals:
God caused His Word to be "SENT" to Earth, in the LIKENESS AS A man, Gods Word;
FOR: this Son of man, to Serve God
FOR: Human men TO SEE and HEAR, this Servant of God.

* Scripture reveals:
What human men SAW:
...was the "Son of Man,"
...God called JESUS.
What human men HEARD: was the Lord.
What SOME human men "LEARNED", was:
- this "Son of Man"...
1) "is" the Lord.
2) "would be" called, the Son of God.
3) "is" the Messiah Christ of God.

You keep posting Verses of a "Return" of "Christ".
You are giving a commentary of an "expectation", for all men "to SEE" Christ, per "your understanding"...of "Christ's Return".

My understanding IS:
The "Son of Man", was SENT.
Mary carried in her Womb, the "Son of Man".
Mary delivered, The "Son of Man".
Once The child was no longer in Marys Womb;
The "Son of Man" was SEEN, by men.

** Men were "TOLD" (given Knowledge)...
The "Son of Man"...(no longer in Marys womb)....IS the Christ Messiah.

In Mary's Womb...Son of Man.
Mary Delivered...Son of Man.
Once Out of Mary's Womb...SEEN Son of Man.
Knowledge revealed...the Christ child.

Point Here:
Mary DID NOT carry or deliver Christ child.
Mary carried and delivered Son of Man.

Immediate Separation of Son of Man, from Mary...knowledge revealed: child IS Christ.

BY Knowledge...men HEARD and went TO SEE this Child.
The Child they SAW: was a Son of Man.
The Knowledge they HAD and Believed:
Was the Son of Man, was the Christ.

What they "HEARD", from this child...
Was ... maybe coo coo!

The Birth of this Son of Man Child...
Would have been recorded, in Roman Documents...as that was the very purpose for Joseph and Mary to BE in Bethlehem, Judea.
Roman Law required: Judeans, (Jews), to Identify the head of household, and number of occupants Of that household, called a census; (a government discovery of the number of people in that government's jurisdiction).

Some men HEARD and Believed, this Son of Man, is the Christ...and Showered the child with Gifts...Other men wanted to Kill the child.

So the Child grows...and we discover a POINT, when the child...gravitates to the Temple...(about age 12)...then we discover this child is an Adult man (near 30 years) and is Opening His Mouth and inviting "a few men to follow him", Listen and Learn from Him.
Then we discover this Adult man, Preaching to others, and the crowds of listeners increasing. A few more men and women begin "following this adult man"... the Followers calling Him...Jesus...and AND this Jesus, Preaching the Word of God, now He being Called: Rabbi, Teacher, "Lord".

Then we discover...this "Lord" (preaching the word of God, that men HEAR), "Jesus" (Son of Man, that men can SEE)...
Pose some questions to his disciples.
**(paraphrasing)**
What's the buzz, what the people saying about "Him"... specifically...WHO do the people SAY He is???
Reply...just a man, a dead Prophet come back to life, etc. ohhh.
And you followers/ disciples??? Who do YOU THINK/ BELIEVE this man you follow, and Hear and See...IS?
UH....short pause...
Fact is "they did NOT KNOW"!

You can review the Scripture itself.
Take Notice...of specifically When Jesus addresses Peter, as Simon Barjonas and as Peter.
Take Notice... of WHO Answered Jesus's question.
Take Notice...of HOW/WHY...the person who answered Jesus' question ... Knew the Answer.
"Understand"...every Disciple was LOOK at Jesus and SEEING...the Son of Man...
(Every Disciple LOOKING at Jesus was SEEING, the Son of Man.
* Not ONE Disciple (Jesus' daily traveling companions), could SEE... Christ!
* They could NOT even Answer "IF" they Thought He was CHRIST!...
* The KNOWLEDGE...that Jesus IS the Christ,
WAS given the Disciples...BY God Himself!

Once The Knowledge (from God), that Jesus IS the Christ, was Given the Disciples...
* Did the Disciples Human Eyes miraculously "Change"... So THEY could "SEE Christ?
NO!

* And that is where your understanding and my understanding parts.

I stressed ORDER and WAY.
I stressed Knowing, Believing, Understanding:
IS .. one thing
SEEING
IS...another thing.

The Son of Man WAS SENT to Earth.
That did not change.
What Changed...was "Knowledge" of WHO that Son...over a course of ORDER and WAY...
Would Become "Knowledge" revealed...
Not a NEW "sight" revealed for Human EYES!

Look at your Scriptures Quoted...
You are trying to prove "Christ is returning....and what??? Men Will SEE Christ

Scripture reveals...
Christ IS The Wisdom of God.
Christ IS The Power of God.
Christ is the SEED of God.

That Little Babe, Son of Man, did not Come to Mary's Womb with those (wisdom, power, seed) things.
Those thing were Reveal IN the Child over a course of ORDER and WAY.
The Knowledge (without SEEING), was revealed to men...By angel's and God Himself.

And ...
Scripture reveals...
The Son of Man, was Sent From Heaven To Earth.
The Knowledge ABOUT" THAT Son was Revealed.
The Son of Man left Earth and Returned To Heaven.
"The Son of Man", IS at the Right hand of God...IN Heaven.
The Son of Man.....Shall Return....
*****with Power*****

Continued.

 

[Taken]

Naomi - continued...

The Son of Man...is what men CAN SEE.
Christ Is the Power of God...
Can YOU SEE Power?
No you can NOT...
You CAN only SEE...the Effect, a Result of POWER!

I have mentioned Son of Man, and NT Scripture mentions Son of Man, nearly 20 times.
It is Son of Man that was Sent and Shall Return.....with Power.
Men shall See the Son of Man...
Men will Not SEE Christ.
Men will SEE the Effects and Results of Gods Power.

So your Quotes of the "Coming of"...
Lord Jesus Christ...

Is the "Return" of; Lord Jesus...
"Son of Man"...
who WAS "sent" without Power....
who WAS "sent" for men to See...
who WAS revealed KNOWLEDGE about Him.

And the "Coming" of; Christ, WHO is Power.

There is a Divide...according to Title and Name...(albeit)...the Same ONE Lord Jesus Christ... the Divide is an Effect upon man.

Men CAN SEE men.
Men can not See God, His Power, His Light...etc.

It is the Hinge...(for man) of Believing WITHOUT seeing.

It matters: the ORDER and WAY God has chosen to Divide, Gather, & Separate men...

It matters: the Truth is spoken.

It matters: that men Understand Gods Truth, ACCORDING to Gods Understanding.

The Son of Man...is "Returning".
Christ, The Power of God....is "Coming WITH"
The Son of Man, who IS "Returning".

Regarding this topic:
I understand the Knowledge of what Scripture says.
I understand the meaning of the Knowledge of Scripture according to God, via the Same WAY, Peter under stood what he was Given to See, and given to Know.

* You are contending...Christ's "return" and that men "will SEE Christ"...

I disagree, and have explained, as best I can, my points of disagreement, and my understanding on the subject.

It matters not to me...if our Understandings differ... and your finger jabbing ... may satisfy you...but make no difference in my understanding...

Christ is the Power of God. At no Time can a human SEE God...period. Men can ONLY trust to Believe, KNOW in their Heart, what they Hear and Believe IS True...and benefit From the Effects and Reflection of God....without SEEING.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

So, let me get this straight: your point was the point I was making. So instead of just saying, 'yeah, I agree', you decided upon a somewhat convoluted way of 'agreeing' without actually coming TO the point.
Got it.

You wanted an agreement, according to your words, your understanding.

Not possible. I do not agree with your understanding.

 

[Naomi25]

How does the outward ‘old man’ perish while the inward is renewed day to day? Which is the old man in the above? Which is the new in ‘the prayer of a righteous man availeth much’ or 1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Matt 3:7-12 is not talking about the life of the 'wheat'...if that is the metaphor we want to try and stick to. Listen...to what John is saying, about those around him and about Jesus when he comes:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” -Matthew 3:7–12

John is saying that man is to make a choice; repentance leading to good fruit, or rejection of repentance that does not bear good fruit...in which case they become chaff. Note that it is the tree that is cut down and burned, not just the bad fruit that is 'pruned off' and burned.

I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding but the chaff is me. Maybe I have a warped way of seeing it but considering my past and all that I’ve done ...destroying, wasting, cursing, opposing God, disobedient. Would not say it is evil but good for all of that to come to nothing. Actually it is a blessing (imo). For all of that to decrease and Him increase.

We all have sin and rebellion in our pasts...if we're being entirely honest, we'll admit to it in our future as well. None of us are completely holy yet. But the very fact that you have acknowledged that you must decrease and he increase means, according to John, that you are not chaff. You are IN Christ and will therefore always be 'wheat'. We know that there are different sorts of wheat...depending on drought seasons, some grows slowly, some struggles to fulfill it's full potential. Some starts growing slowly but reaches a full end. Likewise, we all have our different seasons as we walk our life IN Christ...but none-the-less, we are all still in him. That will not change...it cannot change, because that status rests upon his sacrifice, not ours.

“John is saying that Jesus is going to come and determine the grain from the chaff, the righteous from the wicked, and the wicked "he will burn with an unquenchable fire".”

consider everything there burned is false. His word says every man is a liar. liars burn. That you may bear grain, The grain being ‘let God be true.’

I think you err here on what the bible claims it is that cleanses away our sin. It is not the 'unquenchable fire'...although you would be right in saying that is what we deserve for such sins. But no...it is Christ's blood that cleanses us:

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The "unquenchable fire" is reserved for those who are NOT covered or washed by Christs blood. And if our sins...our lies...are made obsolete by the work of Christ on the cross...why would they need to be cleansed by fire? They would not. They do not. The ONLY 'fire' those in Christ face is the denial of self that leads to service and self sacrifice, even in the face of a physical death. Which may sound like a lot...but when weighed against the 'unquenchable fire of eternal judgement'...well, we're not really speaking about the same thing at all.

 

[Naomi25]

‘Depart from me, you cursed’ I never knew you. Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

John 16:21-22 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. [22] And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

Have you dug into the Covenants at all? The idea that God makes certain promises to his people, which he will uphold, should they uphold their end of the covenant. There are several Covenants in scripture, and while scholars will differ in how they are termed or thought of, they generally agree that the "I will remember their sins no more" is not a general promise to wipe out the sins of the whole world regardless of their thoughts, actions or beliefs. A reciprocal action is required for this promise. I believe you'd be aware of it...you've already embraced it yourself.
"I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me".
God makes a series of amazing promises...to wipe out the debt of mankind, to no longer hold them to a series of laws they cannot fulfill, to do the saving work, the paying work, himself. But the one 'proviso' God required on this Covenant...that the people place their faith in his Son; the one who died to provide such saving grace.
As much as the idea of 'redemption for all' is comforting, it does not stand up under the broader theological context of salvation history, or the narrower exegetical basis of individual texts. And it totally does away with pretty much everything written after Christ's resurrection and ascension. Why would we need it? He came, he did the work, right? If everyone gets in, it should just be something that should be set in motion, right? No need for preaching. No need for spiritual growth, no need for people to come to Jesus at all...we can do what we want, believe what we want, live as we want. Because it all comes up aces.
Nothing in the gospels, or in the epistles, suggests that that's how we can or should live. And if we are to live diametrically opposed to that, the question needs to be...why? Why would some have to live this way, but all 'get in'? The logic doesn't add up either.
That's where I find myself.

 

[Taken]

You don't think that leaving a throne of glory, where angels praised and all of creation exalted him, to come into a human body and world, where mistreatment, hunger, weariness and ultimately torture and death, was not a form of "giving up his reputation"?

His "reputation" is Not about angels praising him.

His "reputation" IS about "WHY" He was being praised.

He IS, the POWER of God...
NOT one "Thing" is created or made...without Gods POWER!

Did that Little babe, called: Jesus, Son of Man...pop out of Mary's Womb...and Start Wielding POWER of God?
Perhaps...??
Men dying because of Looking at Him?
He destroying men, because they rejected God?
He causing Locusts to appear and destroy, sinful men's Food supply?
He causing earthquakes?
He causing lightening to destroy by burning thousands of trees?

Eh NO. Jesus came as the Son of man...and HIS Power (which IS Christ)....a Reputation KNOWN in Heaven...did NOT come with Him.

Again, let me remind you what you have said:

You, whether you 'mean it' or not, have communicated that the Christ and the Son of Man are two separate...people...entities? I don't know. And that the 'Christ' one has never been to earth, and will not return to earth. And all of this is somehow 'linked', to the fact that man cannot 'see' God.
So, you know, if I've drawn the 'wrong conclusion' on what you're saying...might not be solely my fault.


And? What do you mean...and? You WHOLE ARGUMENT is that...and I quote: "what is in dispute is you linking them all together, when scripture clearly does not"
And when I have inundated you with scriptures calling Jesus BOTH Son of man and Christ here on earth AND at his coming...in fact when I provide both out of Jesus' very own lips, your only response is "and"....?

I think...on my behalf, that's a mic drop.

Not the issue. [/B] The issue is you've denied he was the Christ while on earth. Or that we could see him as the Christ while on earth. Or something equally as wacky. [/B] The point, in either or any way is: the bible doesn't back you up. The bible repeatedly calls Jesus the Christ; while he was here on earth and while people were looking right upon him.


I'm sure you have a lovely little sequence all worked out in your head, and sometimes sequences and orders are great. But they have to be biblically backed up. And yours is not. Your 'timing' and 'knowing' and 'seeing' has not been supporting by a single verse. You cannot prove that Jesus as Christ and Jesus as Son of Man were 'divided' and you're whole premise is based upon that.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but no, I'm not Catholic. Mary is to be respected, she was obviously a godly woman to be chosen as Christ's mother, but she was just like any other woman born to man. Probably fallible.
And if you're going to judge a person for 'Therefore's'...then no wonder you had an issue with the bible. It's full of 'em. Paul in particular loved them.

* Never called Jesus and Christ two separate people or entities.

* Never denied the knowledge of Jesus being the Christ was revealed on Earth.

* Never had an issue with Jesus being CALLED the Christ.

* Scripture itself reveals A DIVISION ...
His Reputation...His POWER...which IS Christ...Did NOT Come WITH the SENT Son of Man.
If you do not comprehend a Division of WHAT is IN Heaven and WHAT is ON Earth...is ONE thing...IN two distinct Different Divided PLACES...I can not understand it For You.

* yes, While meant to be condescending, I do have a lovely sequence...worked out in the thoughts of my Heart.

* I did not Know your religious adherence... and FOR you to reveal what you are Not...did not burst any bubble or presumption.

* I did notice your "therefore", leading to Christ "returning" and being "seen", and disagree.

 

[Taken]

May I demonstrate the sort of logic you're using? You may have come across this before, its from the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy:

LOL! No clue what that is. I am not a fan of Man-made fantasy mumbo-Jumbo, movies or the likes.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

Skimmed, without interest.

And your logic has about the same amount of biblical evidence.

Logic- is what a Carnal Mind Naturally Craves.
And precisely WHY the Carnal Mind is Against God.
A mind that be satisfied, with logic to what Makes Sense...is satisfied with its logical, sensible Understanding....and May tomorrow ... change his mind!

IMO- per my own studies...God is not looking for a man's mindful logical, sensible, deductions Of what a man "Concludes" ABOUT God...
But RATHER...
God is looking for a man WHO hears, believes, trusts, His Word According to the man's "hearts Thoughts"...where Logic and Sensibility ... have no meaning.

So if you thought I failed to give you a Mindful, Logical, Sensible Response ...
Ok...because that was NOT my intent.

And you know what? I'm about done with this. A person making extraordinary claims he can't or won't provide scripture with, only his own amazing observation powers, is just not worth it.
I hope, for your sake, that when Jesus comes back, that he's decided to take a form which you can see. Because, you know, based on your logic and going on bible verses it could go either way.

You know what??
There is a Reason, God IS Mysterious.
Everything ABOUT God IS Mysterious.
Nothing God Does, makes Logical Sense to the Minds of men.
Men minds are Not equipped to be able to logically figure out God.
* And Why...when Men- promote Philisophers and Philosophies- and being highlighted By men as a Nobel College course... The Word of God...Warns Against such things!
* God promotes...hear the Word of God- Trust it ...Believe it...in your Heart...without understanding....and once a man has accomplished...Heartfully Trusting / believing His Word...He will give that man HIS Understanding.

Glory to God,
His ORDER...His WAY...His Will be done.

Taken

 

[Taken]

With the 'rapture to heaven' theory, when practically everyone they know does believe God will take them to heaven, for them to suddenly say they refute the rapture, they would be declared insane, or at the least ostracized.

Oh good Grief- Do you Never Stop your mouth and open your Ears?

believe God will take them to heaven

Rapture Believers ARE NOT claiming THAT ^^

Don't you GET IT?

YOU...Are opening your mouth, and With YOUR words, Making A FALSE claim FOR a Rapture Believer...

Then Opening your mouth and AND "Bashing" a Rapture Believer....
BASED ON YOUR False Claim!

I have pointed this out to you Twice!

You pat yourself on the back "claiming" you only speak the Truth.

Post 342

"I" present the truth and leave it at that

False!

You Make up a LIE...DICTATE, your LIE, IS a Rapture Believers "BELIEF"...which IS a LIE...

Then Bash a Rapture Believer...and stand in the corner...and "feel sorry", for a Rapture Believer.

A Rapture Believer...KNOWS WHY they believe in a Rapture....YOU do not...
So you make up a Lie.
Then bash them...
Awe, and show a pretense of "feeling sorry" for them....awe ...you are soooo compassionate! Ha!

You STANDING "outside" making up Lies...is precisely ... the one Scriptures Warns of...
Persecution...in all forms against One who Believes, Trusts Gods Word...and has the Understanding of WHY.

Fact is HAS has always been...he without understanding will always stand against Gods Word and those who Do his Word.

So... Stop lying.
It is Obvious you neither Agree OR understand the Rapture.
So stick with What YOU Do Believe...and Talk About your Belief....What YOU will be DOING ON Earth "During" the Tribulation....
There are a LOT of "things" that Wiil occur during the Tribulation...

I'm curious...what Are you going to be Doing ON Earth During the Tribulation????

Dodging bullets?
Taking cover from an earthquake?
Choking on fire smoke and fumes?
Starving because of famine?
Drinking from blood filled rivers?
Getting sores and pains from biting insects?
Wishing you could die and escape the Torments, ... but Can't?
Joining the army and shooting people?
Or
Are you going to BE Preaching the Gospel of The the Lord Jesus to the left behind Jews, who rejected Jesus the Christ Messiah of Jews?

Talk Away....curious about your Purpose to be ON Earth during the Tribulation!

Taken

 

[VictoryinJesus]

for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” -Matthew 3:7–12

taking it one at a time. Just speaking for the sake of conversation and in no way saying it is right. One is) God is able of ‘these stones’ to raise up children unto Abraham. Living (Alive) stones built up and raised in Christ. Second) in the parable of the sower and the seed, there is only one good ground which bears and endures and brings forth fruit. The good ground is seed sown into the Kingdom of God(a new heart) and there the seed isn’t consumed by fowls, scorched by heat, withered, nor falls away because of it has root. As He said, Abide in Me and it is My Father’s Will there be much fruit, that where He places His name be glorified.

Do get what you are saying about the right and the left. As nations of people, or goats and sheep. Again, so often ‘I am a sheep’ , they are goats. possibly very wrong but only sharing with you a few things that stand out to me and make me consider always why God would say to cut off your right hand if it offends you. In the OT satan stood at the right hand to resist the Lord. Clever. Nobody wants the left yeah? Not even the devil. How then does Christ stand at the right hand of God and His people. Somebody got removed. Where the word speaks of those on the left and right and how ‘you didn’t visit me in prison’. Jesus Christ did not visit John the Baptist in literal prison. Instead He sent word ‘I am setting those held captive in prison Free.’ Blessed is he who is not offended in Me. If you would look at all those ‘you didn’t do’ religion and pious showy deeds are cut off, the profiting off men’s good names who think they earn a right in, as the devil in the OT stood at the right to resist the Lord with Joshua. Christ removed the devil (how) and stands at the Right hand of His people. Did the devil ever stand at the right, I would say he did. Now who takes that place at the right of the throne of God which is where? Zechariah 3:1-4. Notice ‘plucked from the fire’ which (imo) doesn’t mean not go in the fire but pulled out from the fire because of the garments the Lord says to remove. The Lord says there I will clothe and provide him a change of raiment...put on the New Man. Any can go visit someone in a literal prison but it takes God to set Free those held spiritually captive to death and sin. Going back to those ‘you did not do’ to the goats and the sheep. Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness and said ‘turn these stones into bread’ feed yourself! and God did ‘feed yourself’ the yourself being ‘His people’ ‘His body’ at: He is the stone made bread which feeds the hungry and poor. Multiplied.

Do not know much about the two witnesses but in reading through the discussions on the two, concerning upon the right side and the left ...this stood out(have to remember John the Baptist)

Zechariah 4:11-14 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? [12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? [13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be ? And I said, No, my lord. [14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

 

[Truther]

Will consider. Need to read it a couple of times again tomorrow. But in 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

is not the ‘that which is in part done away’ in Christ? 2 Corinthians 3:14-18 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. [15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. [16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. [17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

No, one says already done away, and the other says will someday be done away regarding the gifts and the dark glasses we are subjected to.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Zechariah 3:1-4 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. [2] And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? [3] Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. [4] And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

How can ‘I will clothe thee with a change of raiment’ in the OT? How ‘put on the New man’ in the OT? Did Joshua fail having not put on or accepted under men’s terms the change of raiment in ‘I will clothe thee with change of garment’? Can one out of the OT put on the New ...Hebrews 11:24-27 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; [25] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; [26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. [27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Truther]

Thanks for sharing.

Glory to God,
Taken

Your welcome

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No, one says already done away, and the other says will someday be done away regarding the gifts and the dark glasses we are subjected to.

In the one which says already done away ...do you mean partially?

 

[Truther]

In the one which says already done away ...do you mean partially?

2 Cor 3 says the 10 commandments are now done away for believers(only) that are Spirit led.

Unrelatedly, 1 Cor 13 says the gifts and dark glass which affects our vision will be done away in the future in the millennial reign. None will be needed with Jesus visible on earth.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

2 Cor 3 says the 10 commandments are now done away for believers(only) that are Spirit led.

Unrelatedly, 1 Cor 13 says the gifts and dark glass which affects our vision will be done away in the future in the millennial reign. None will be needed with Jesus visible on earth.

the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the building up and edification of that which growth up and remains. (Until Christ be formed in you). He said to strengthen that which remains and abides. When Paul spoke to them concerning the Lords table, he said every man takes his own before another not discerning the Lords body...one goes away drunk and staggering and another goes away hungry ...for this cause many among are sickly, weak, and sleep. he said ‘to watch’ that you be found doing? To watch and be found doing what? Watch for the thief comes...He told Peter when you are converted to ‘strengthen your brothers’ build them up in what remains and abides ...again for the thief comes to steal ‘I come that they may have Life’

 

[Truther]

the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the building up and edification of that which growth up and remains. (Until Christ be formed in you). He said to strengthen that which remains and abides. When Paul spoke to them concerning the Lords table, he said every man takes his own before another not discerning the Lords body...one goes away drunk and staggering and another goes away hungry ...for this cause many among are sickly, weak, and sleep. he said ‘to watch’ that you be found doing? To watch and be found doing what? Watch for the thief comes...He told Peter when you are converted to ‘strengthen your brothers’ build them up in what remains and abides ...again for the thief comes to steal ‘I come that they may have Life’

1 Cor 13 says the gifts will cease at the return of Christ. nobody will need to speak in tongues when physically shaking His hand.

 

[farouk]

How does the outward ‘old man’ perish while the inward is renewed day to day? Which is the old man in the above? Which is the new in ‘the prayer of a righteous man availeth much’ or 1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding but the chaff is me. Maybe I have a warped way of seeing it but considering my past and all that I’ve done ...destroying, wasting, cursing, opposing God, disobedient. Would not say it is evil but good for all of that to come to nothing. Actually it is a blessing (imo). For all of that to decrease and Him increase.

“John is saying that Jesus is going to come and determine the grain from the chaff, the righteous from the wicked, and the wicked "he will burn with an unquenchable fire".”

consider everything there burned is false. His word says every man is a liar. liars burn. That you may bear grain, The grain being ‘let God be true.’

@VictoryinJesus Shows that it's really the new birth (John 3) that counts and not human works - such as they are - before Him....