John Darby

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Well in a sense one is also talking from the standpoint of eternity.

Well, from every standpoint its all about eternity. But the details is where the the contention and confusion of the discussion lie. I tend to think, yes. From Christ onwards, we all come to him, one body headed towards one future. Call it Israel, the Church, the elect, whatever you want. But God is drawing a people for himself TO himself. Israel (ethnic) plays a special role because, of course, through them came the plan, the law, Christ himself, and on behalf of all those things, they are 'beloved' and are promised a final redemption. But beyond that, it's simple.

 

[Naomi25]

Sure, there are 'flashbacks' and further details in Revelation. But the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls is a set sequence of events. They are placed in order, the Seals all removed first, then the Trumpets and Bowls are directed at the ungodly peoples, leading up to Jesus Returning at the 7th Bowl, which is Armageddon.

There is also some good work done on recapitulation of these visions.
I...am actually not so sure where I sit just at present. I am in a time of flux, I think.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 I think it's fair to say from the witness of Scripture that peoples and individuals will be judged according to the light they may have received. Some have been in great darkness; others have had the oracles of God.

I think scripture is pretty clear that all are judged the same:

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Romans 1:20 - For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 As much as answering 'when?' in terms of the Lord's coming in Scripture, there is also the question of 'for whom?'. I don't see that 1 Cor. 10.32, with its distinct groups of ppl, allows me to lump everyone together.

Are you referring to 1 Cor 15:23? Because, yes, while it certainly does mention both when AND who:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. -1 Corinthians 15:23

It's the fact that this event is easily linked with other passages that speak of the same event...and these passages place 'others' in the same 'group' if you will. Not in destination, perhaps, but in that once Christ arrives, all will be dealt with. For example:
1 Cor 15 is clearly speaking of the Rapture, everyone will agree: the 'twinkling of an eye' being 'changed in an instant', being given our new resurrection bodies.
But if we look at other passages that also speak of this event:

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–17

Another 'clear' Rapture passage, and it shows us that when it happens, it's not just the living 'saved' who are resurrected at this point, but the 'dead in Christ' as well. What does this, exactly, mean? It means that all the dead who have placed their faith in Christ Jesus, will receive their resurrection bodies, just as we do in that moment.
But what does it say elsewhere about the dead being raised to life?

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. -John 5:28–29

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. -Revelation 20:12–13

Christ clearly links the resurrection of both the wicked AND the righteous AT the same time.
There are many more verses that link all these events together, but you get my point. When we get a fairly good grasp of these verses, we begin to see that there is not a two or even three staged resurrection event, but a single one, just as there is a single return of our Lord.

 

[farouk]

I think scripture is pretty clear that all are judged the same:

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Romans 1:20 - For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

@Naomi25 Those indeed are great verses, with universal application. Romans 3 also does seem to indicate that those under the law had a special responsibility.

 

[farouk]

Are you referring to 1 Cor 15:23? Because, yes, while it certainly does mention both when AND who:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. -1 Corinthians 15:23

It's the fact that this event is easily linked with other passages that speak of the same event...and these passages place 'others' in the same 'group' if you will. Not in destination, perhaps, but in that once Christ arrives, all will be dealt with. For example:
1 Cor 15 is clearly speaking of the Rapture, everyone will agree: the 'twinkling of an eye' being 'changed in an instant', being given our new resurrection bodies.
But if we look at other passages that also speak of this event:

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–17

Another 'clear' Rapture passage, and it shows us that when it happens, it's not just the living 'saved' who are resurrected at this point, but the 'dead in Christ' as well. What does this, exactly, mean? It means that all the dead who have placed their faith in Christ Jesus, will receive their resurrection bodies, just as we do in that moment.
But what does it say elsewhere about the dead being raised to life?

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. -John 5:28–29

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. -Revelation 20:12–13

Christ clearly links the resurrection of both the wicked AND the righteous AT the same time.
There are many more verses that link all these events together, but you get my point. When we get a fairly good grasp of these verses, we begin to see that there is not a two or even three staged resurrection event, but a single one, just as there is a single return of our Lord.

@Naomi25 I think that some of those verses do seem to indicate different groups of people, and this is what dispensationalists tend to point out.

 

[farouk]

I also agree that Darby is not a sound attack against Dispensationalism. I think the doctrine falls by itself. *Just sayin.*

@Naomi25 I must say that I think Darby did a good service in raising issues that need to be faced. Perhaps he didn't have all the answers, but the questions when raised are useful in 'rightly dividing the word of truth'. (Darby also wrote some really good hymns!)

 

[farouk]

Well your problem is only because you demand that teh church has to endure the tribulation period which Scripture simply doesn't support!

@Ronald Nolette I really don't see that the church will go through the tribulation, as in Matthew 24, which seems to be talking about tribulation saints rather than the church.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I do not believe in a 'rapture to heaven'. That theory is not supported by any scripture, it has to be assumed and surmised.
When Jesus Returns, He will send out His angels to gather those who remain alive to where He is. Matthew 24:30-31 That would be Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:3

You cannot build any timing proofs around when and where the Marriage and the Supper will be. The Bible just does not tell us.
As we humans never go to heaven, it must be on earth, after Jesus Returns.

Well when the rapture happens you will be called up even though you disbelieve. Sorry but teh Scriptures do support it- you just have ben taught to look at it with an allegorical interpretation.

Sorry but the greek (you know th e language Scripture was written) does support it as well as the natural flow of the narrative. It is you who fail to support you hypothesis that God wakes the crowds in heaven up to shout, the bride is in heaven and made herself ready (if there are people left on earth, then the bride is not ready now can she be), if there are still church members on earth, that means they have not gone through the Bema judgment, and their works tried!

And Paul said in plain simple to understand language- that when we are absent from teh body- we are present with the Lord. It is your teachers who have twisted the scriptures to mean something other than what they say!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette I really don't see that the church will go through the tribulation, as in Matthew 24, which seems to be talking about tribulation saints rather than the church.

I agree with SCripture and you !

It is just some people have been indoctrinated to think that tribulation saints have to be the chruch when Paul clearly and without ambiguity says teh church will not have to go through that wrath!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So, you agree that nations means 'gathering of peoples from all lands'. Which means that Jews are judged no differently to anyone else. All must stand before the throne of Christ. There is no special 'judgement throne for the Jews' in scripture. Just the Judgment throne of Christ.

Never said there were two separate thrones. Only two separate gatherings.

The one in Matt. 24 which is just for a group God calls the ELECT! And the one in Matt. 25 which includes a global gathering of saved and unsaved! Notice in Matt. 24 just an elect and in Matt. 25 saved and unsaved!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Force them into the new covenant. The same new covenant that makes them come to Christ as their one and only way to the Father?

Yes to be forced into the new Covenant! that is the Bible.

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

In the Church and eternity there is just one! But in the millenial kingdom? There are distinctions which all the verses I posted showed you!

Nothing else can or will save. And there is nothing else in scripture outlining or detailing another way or another plan. Christ it is. Faith is it. Being grafted back onto the tree...the one body...is it.

I never even implied differently! Just the opposite is true! For the church. After the church is raptured- then it is what has been dubbed the Trib saints. They also must trust in Christ alone! But they are not part of the bride of Christ! Same with the OT saints-they are not part of the bride of Christ either! Both are called friends of the bridegroom.

Perhaps. Perhaps this is what scripture is saying...there are those who argue for it and against. But here's the thing: there's nothing that says for certain that Israel cannot do these things without the Church being present. So there's nothing biblically pressing in these events that call for the Rapture of the Church first.

Except for the Bible itself! Paul clearly declared that the church was to be delivered from the wrath to come! That is not general wrath, but what we call the tribulation!

Also, there's nothing here that says these Jews will not be Christians just like we are, and so are just Jewish members of the body. As Christians we say there is no more 'Jew or Greek', but persecution from evil has never recognized those boundaries. Jews, especially Christian Jews, may very well face the prospect of fleeing in the last days

Yes in the Body of Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile (that is a talk for another thread what is meant). But the Chruch is raptured prior to the tribulation, so that we may go through the bema judgment of corinthians, receive our rewards and then get our fine linen!

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The bride of Jesus is in heaven! There is also a throng shouting in heaven who are not part of the bride! There are saints on earth who have not been made ready at this point! How can they be part of teh bride since the bride is ready and they are not????

This still makes zero sense. I fully grasp what you are saying about 'hour' not meaning an actual 60 minute period. But just because it instead means a fixed period or time in 'general' does not mean, in ANY way, you can suddenly wack 1000 years in there. Talk about non-literal!
l.

Well Scripture says it is so it matters not if you think it doesn't make sense!

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Here is resurrection of the just. Prior to that "symbolic" thousand years as you call it! This is just for the just.

Then:
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So the resurrection of the just occurs 1,000 years before the resurrection of the unjust!

No, we see one. We only see multiple when we start squeezing in time gaps because we can't wiggle on our doctrines.
Dan 12:2 speak of the resurrection of good and evil being at the same time, as does John 5:28-29. So when we see the Rapture passages that speak of the dead in Christ being raised then, we have zero biblical reason to imagine that along with the dead believers, the wicked dead are not also being raised and judged./QUOTE]

If these were the only passages then I would agree with you! For these definitely seem to give the impression that both are resurrected at teh same time! but REv. shows that though these make it seem simultaneously, it is not!

"It will be given to a future generation". Two problems with this. First, it still seems under the disillusion that the Kingdom is not, at present, in the hands of others. .

YOu only say this because you fail to recognize that God will keep His promises to Israel and give them th eKingdom He swore to givethem! That was proven by the many verses Iposted and you obviously did not read!

Jer 31:31: The 'New Covenant' is not proof that Israel is to have a new kingdom and 'reign over the Gentiles'. The NC is the inclusion of the Gentiles!

Dispensationalists think too small.

I agree ! the new Covenant does not show that teh Jews will reign over the gentiles in the millenial kngdom! But the many other verses I posted do show that they will!

No we dispensationalists though imperfect, try to think just along the whole counsel of SCripture and not forget the everlasting promises god made in the Old.

YOu rposts edited for length constraints.

 

[Keraz]

There is also some good work done on recapitulation of these visions.

I have read writings that make out how the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are all the same thing. This is done to support the agenda of AMillennisim. The theory that we are at present in the Millennium.
It is a false theory, from many angles, the main one being; Jesus has not Returned yet; every eye will see Him.

Well when the rapture happens you will be called up even though you disbelieve. Sorry but teh Scriptures do support it- you just have ben taught to look at it with an allegorical interpretation.

So; where are those scriptures?
But thanks for including me in your fantasy 'rapture', but no thanks, as I know I have work to do here. I look forward to the great Promises of God to His people, as they live in all of the holy Land, in peace and prosperity. Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Zechariah 8:1-8

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Those indeed are great verses, with universal application. Romans 3 also does seem to indicate that those under the law had a special responsibility.

Romans 3 is the perfect example that all...Jews AND Gentiles...are only justified by faith.

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,... Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. - Romans 3:9,19–25

Paul is saying here that the law brings awareness of sin...but it cannot bring forgiveness or redemption from it. The Jews were called to live under the Law in acknowledgement OF their sin...the law had revealed their sinful natures to them...a bit like a diagnostic machine reveals cancer, but it could not cure them. But, like anyone made aware of their terminal illness, one doesn't just live a life of carefree abandon that will made said illness worse. Especially if that illness happens to be a grave, treasonous act towards God.
So, the Law, while it could not cure sin, pointed towards it and towards their desperate need for redemption. Towards their Messiah.
But, very clearly, this passage teaches that salvation ONLY comes through faith...for all.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 I think that some of those verses do seem to indicate different groups of people, and this is what dispensationalists tend to point out.

Well...yes. There was the Rapture. Which is clearly alive Christians...and resurrected believers and resurrected wicked. The point I was attempting to make was that the passages link them all together, time-wise. Which is something Dispensationalists like to separate, I believe.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 I must say that I think Darby did a good service in raising issues that need to be faced. Perhaps he didn't have all the answers, but the questions when raised are useful in 'rightly dividing the word of truth'. (Darby also wrote some really good hymns!)

I don't know a lot about Darby, to be perfectly honest, but using him ("it's so new!!!") as the essential argument against the doctrine is fraught with difficulties. Because a good number arguing against him are mostly likely from the Reformation side of things...which is relatively 'new' too. We like to say the Reformation was just getting back to the truth of the bible...which I think it was after the RCC got things off track....but the argument can remain, can it not?
I think, therefore, when we discuss such things, our arguments for or against the doctrine ought to rest solely on the biblical texts in question and whether or not we can make them mesh with what Dispensationalists claim they say.

 

[Enoch111]

I think, therefore, when we discuss such things, our arguments for or against the doctrine ought to rest solely on the biblical texts in question and whether or not we can make them mesh with what Dispensationalists claim they say.

This is correct, and the only way to address Bible doctrines.

Darby became the whipping boy for the Reformed camp, but they really have nothing substantial to support their false eschatology. Thus Darby, Scofield, Ryrie, Walvoord, etc. were maligned to no end, so that people would think evil of Christian brethren, and forget about the underlying issues.

You have claimed that Dispensationalism is fraught will difficulties. But all those difficulties disappear when once people agree that the only sound way to interpret the Bible is to take it in its plain literal sense (other than where there are figures of speech).

 

[Naomi25]

Never said there were two separate thrones. Only two separate gatherings.

The one in Matt. 24 which is just for a group God calls the ELECT! And the one in Matt. 25 which includes a global gathering of saved and unsaved! Notice in Matt. 24 just an elect and in Matt. 25 saved and unsaved!

I challenge you to go through scripture and cough up proof that all the different 'names' found in scripture for those belonging to Jesus: the elect, Saints, the Church, saved, believers; weren't used in a synonymous way. Because they clearly are.
Then, go through and find me proof that shows the Judgment Thrones aren't one and the same event. Including Jews standing before it. Because I didn't mean there would be 'two thrones'...you notice the ""? The event is listed as "The Final Judgement", or "The Throne Judgment". So my point was not that there was another 'special throne' that Jesus would sit upon, but that there would be a separate 'judging'...as you implied. So...as you implied...where in scripture STATES this separate 'judging' event? If, as you say it must be, it has to be, then it must be taught somewhere, right?
Time to start providing scripture to back your opinions. I don't need or want more Dispensational thought. I know their doctrines well. I want to know if you can, where others have not, been able to reasonably ground it in scripture. Thus far you have not.

 

[farouk]

I challenge you to go through scripture and cough up proof that all the different 'names' found in scripture for those belonging to Jesus: the elect, Saints, the Church, saved, believers; weren't used in a synonymous way. Because they clearly are.
Then, go through and find me proof that shows the Judgment Thrones aren't one and the same event. Including Jews standing before it. Because I didn't mean there would be 'two thrones'...you notice the ""? The event is listed as "The Final Judgement", or "The Throne Judgment". So my point was not that there was another 'special throne' that Jesus would sit upon, but that there would be a separate 'judging'...as you implied. So...as you implied...where in scripture STATES this separate 'judging' event? If, as you say it must be, it has to be, then it must be taught somewhere, right?
Time to start providing scripture to back your opinions. I don't need or want more Dispensational thought. I know their doctrines well. I want to know if you can, where others have not, been able to reasonably ground it in scripture. Thus far you have not.

An interesting book is L. Verduin's The Reformers and Their Stepchildren. In the book the writer looks historically at various Anabaptist preachers; it is clear that some of them anticipated what dispensationalists would feel they had found in the Scriptures.

 

[Naomi25]

Yes to be forced into the new Covenant! that is the Bible.

I...was being sarcastic. You see...when you insist that there must be distinction between Jew and Gentile...and then also insist that God is going to "force them into the NC"...where Jews and Gentiles become one body in Christ....you DO realise that you are arguing against yourself...right?

In the Church and eternity there is just one! But in the millenial kingdom? There are distinctions which all the verses I posted showed you!

Ok. There are two problems just here. The first goes back to the fact that the bible only speaks of 2 ages: this age and the age to come. So....if Jews and Gentiles are 1 NOW and they are 1 in ETERNITY....why on earth do you think there will be an inserted 'age' that is NOT talked about where we'll suddenly be separated again? Nonsensical. For no reason as well.
Second...have you heard of 'shadows and types'? Surely even Dispensationalists have heard of these and must agree that they are replete through scripture. The first Adam and Jesus the second Adam? The 'first' exodus and then the events surrounding Jesus the second? How HE was the passover Lamb, who took away the sins, and how he then led his people away from slavery? The OT is packed with them, and they ALL point to Jesus. We know this because the NT tells us. We're not just making it up.
The thing with OT 'prophecies' about what Dispensationalists hold onto as an 'earthly millennial, theocratic kingdom' is not, in actual fact, that. What they are those verses speaking about then, because it's clear that the bible DOES speak of Israel being promised a kingdom, so...what, then? Let's just a look at the promise of the new covenant for a second:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” -Jeremiah 31:31–34

Here God is speaking of the days of 'the coming Kingdom' (chapters 30-33)...but, in this kingdom, is his rule associated with the Mosaic Law? Clearly not...he is linking it to a a direct spiritual reign of God over the hearts of his people: in other words: the Kingdom or rule of God here, envisioned by Jeremiah, prophesied to his people, is NOT mediated by and earthly theocratic kingdom.
Again, we see Jesus associating this kingdom not with the Old Covenant, but with the NC, that he himself is bringing into the world:

And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.-Luke 22:20

and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. -Matthew 18:3

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” -John 3:3

Paul spends some time carefully explaining the nuances between the old and new covenant...between law and gospel. He concludes by saying that the new fulfills the old; supercedes it, renders it obsolete...that the 'mystery of God', hidden from sight in all times past, but now, through Jesus, bought out from the 'shadows' and into substance...the old being the types and shadows of the 'real', and have now passed away:

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. -Hebrews 8:13

These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. -Colossians 2:17

They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. -Hebrews 8:5–6

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. -Hebrews 10:1

So...when we're looking at verses in the OT about promises theocratic kingdoms, we must understand two things: the OT is in a time of shadow and mystery, where the revelation of both Christ and the kingdom/covenant he will bring has not yet been revealed, and that that therefore means that the authors of the scripture portray the promises of God in ways that the people will understanding and can long for.
Another 2 important notes need to be made from these conclusions: the first is: like it or not, these are not fanciful 'imaginings' of the Covenantal scholar. As we can see from the verses above, the OT and the OC were indeed types and shadows, things that were made 'obsolete' when the 'better form of reality' came...Jesus and the NC he bought. Second, there is also no denying WHAT is was Jesus bought through the NC. It wasn't a theocratic earthly kingdom. It was a spiritual one. A one that recused people from sin and promised that the 'better land' we all (Gentiles now included) longed for was actually going to be the restored earth (Romans 8).
The fact of the matter is this: the NT supports this summation of the OT kingdom prophecies far better than it does yours. With Dispensational teaching on OT kingdom prophecies, a separate 'age' has to be jammed in, in between the clear '2 ages' that are taught.

I never even implied differently! Just the opposite is true! For the church. After the church is raptured- then it is what has been dubbed the Trib saints. They also must trust in Christ alone! But they are not part of the bride of Christ! Same with the OT saints-they are not part of the bride of Christ either! Both are called friends of the bridegroom.

Yes, but you cannot provide scripture that sections any of these up, can you? You claim the 'church' must be raptured because God promises he won't beat his bride....but can't prove that any other person who comes to Christ should NOT have those exact same promises or status of bride...tribulation or not. All you have to go on is the fact that the term 'Saint' appears in Revelation. Which is the weakest argument in the world. 'Saint' also appears all throughout the other books of the NT. The notion that the Church can't be in Revelation because the word isn't found after chapter 4 is also ridiculous, as there are at least 3 other entire books in the NT were the word 'church' is not found either. Are they Raptured during the period those books were written too? You cannot build you're doctrine based on these words appearing or not appearing. You must do better, you must have textual evidence that states there is a difference between 'saints', 'Jews' and 'Church'. But you cannot. And the VERY FACT that they ALL must be saved through Christ is a check against you. Because scripture repeatedly tells us that anyone coming TO Christ are made one IN him. One body, neither Jew nor Gentile. Christ breaks down the wall of division.
So, not only can you NOT find positive proof for your theory, there is actually proof against it.