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Featured John Darby

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by teamventure, Aug 13, 2020.

  1. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I think all we can do, as individuals, is arrive at a place where we believe scripture is most logical.
    For my behalf, there have been many worthy efforts that present a convincing argument that Revelation is not presented in a strictly chronological order. I do not rule out that possibility of course, but it means that I do not like to draw my "timeline" of end time events only from Revelation. And when I go to the gospels and epistles, I see that, indeed, the 'order' in Revelation is not, perhaps, how we should read it. Let me show you.


    ...and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. -Matthew 13:39–43

    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.... “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.....
    But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -Matthew 24:29–31,36–41,48–51

    When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world....“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.....
    And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:31–34,41,46

    But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death....When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
    “Death is swallowed up in victory
    .” -1 Corinthians 15:23–26,54


    For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.-1 Thessalonians 4:15–17

    Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. -1 Thessalonians 5:1–2

    Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,....
    And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. -2 Thessalonians 2:1–3,8

    They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly....
    But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. -2 Peter 3:4–7,10


    So, those are all the 'major' verses. Not only do we see that they are all described in similar terms "coming", "will come" (which in greek still tell us the same: "to come, coming, to come, be present"), but we see other overlaps as well. The 'day of the Lord', which comes 'like a thief' in 2 Peter 3, when the heavens pass away...surely a reference to the beginning of eternity, is the same 'day of the Lord, which comes like a thief' in 1 Thess 5:1-2, which is a passage most love to use as a Rapture passage. Regardless of whether the Rapture is pre-tribulation or post, if it IS the same one talked about in Peter, where the heavens and earth are burned up, there's a problem right there. Peter also talks about this event being 'the day of destruction and judgment'.
    When we look at the idea of 'judgement' and resurrection, we have another problem. Because multiple verses place them together as well. Matt 13 tells us that the 'angels' gather both good and bad 'grains' "at the end of the age". Now, I suppose it depends on how you view the 'ages', but the parable clearly states that the 'field is the world' and that when the 'bad seed' is gathered, it is thrown into 'the fiery furnace where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth'. Where else do we see this phrase used and how? Jesus uses it often, but above, specifically in Matt 24:51, where it is clearly linked to Christ's coming 'on the clouds' to gather his elect from the four corners of the globe. Some people, I believe, prefer to separate it, but the Olivet discourse is, well a discourse, and the passage says "concerning THAT day and hour...the one he'd just spoken of, his coming and gathering of his elect...AFTER the tribulation. So, we conclude that this event, both the gathering of the elect and the 'catching by surprise' of the wicked, is a single event. This is further strengthen by Mat 25, where another mention of the wicked suffering the fate of fire is mentioned. We're told that AT Christ's coming, he will gather ALL nations and separate them. Their destinations? Eternal life, or eternal punishment...eternal punishment, no less, in the fire "prepared for the devil and his angels". That's the lake of fire.
    That's when we come to 1 Cor 15, and see that AT Christ's return, when all these events take place, that this is the final enemy defeated...death. It simply, outright, tells us so. And IF death, being the last enemy, is defeated by our Rapture and resurrected bodies AT Christ's return, then the logical conclusion leads us to the events of Rev 20 where death is thrown into the lake of fire.
    That is why I read Rev 20 as I do. Because the rest of the NT demands it of me.

    But, I concede many do not.
     
  2. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Couple of problems I see with your ideas here. The first is...it doesn't actually say anywhere in 1 Cor 15 that God will use his 'a day is like a thousand years etc' thing. That is purely an insert by you.
    The second is, 'in his presence' instead of 'at his coming' doesn't make a great deal of difference. The Interlineal study shows they are basically from the same root:

    ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ αὐτοῦ
    en: in, on, at, by, with
    ho, hé, to: the
    parousia: a coming, presence
    autos: he, she, it, they, them, same

    As we can't HAVE Christ's physical presence without his 'coming' the two are inexplicably linked. The passage is still, ultimately, saying that when we have Christ's 'presence or coming' THAT is when we receive our promised 'firstfruits' bodies. And that, is when death is defeated.

    I have no quibble with humans only having immortality during 'eternity'. But 1 Cor 15 is clearly speaking of the 'final defeat of death' and that by our receiving our new resurrection bodies when Christ returns. I believe the problem here lies with you and your need to have another 'age' where a millennium can take place...somewhere were death is still present. Of course that is a problem with this text. It's not a problem with my understanding of it.
     
  3. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    So, you agree that nations means 'gathering of peoples from all lands'. Which means that Jews are judged no differently to anyone else. All must stand before the throne of Christ. There is no special 'judgement throne for the Jews' in scripture. Just the Judgment throne of Christ.

    Force them into the new covenant. The same new covenant that makes them come to Christ as their one and only way to the Father? Through faith? Which means they come into the one body, where there is no longer Jew nor Gentile? That new covenant? All joined to the nourishing holy root?
    Can you not see that biblically, there is NO room for a separate 'plan' for Israel? God's plan is for us all to be one. Not for us Gentile to take over Israel, to be better than them or replace them. For us to be adopted into the wondrous plan he always had for Abraham's true offspring. All through faith. The reason Paul breaks out into rejoicing at the end of Romans 11 is because he clearly sees that massive numbers of Jews will be mercifully bought into this plan. Imagine if something like that happened among Gentiles. Yes, we have large numbers of Christian, but comparatively, that would be like perhaps 90% of the people you knew and lived around you being bought to Christ! Paul is praising God because even though then, the partial hardening of his people, for the Gentiles benefit, he knew the great blessings for their future! But still....a future solidly in Christ alone, faith alone. One body! Nothing else can or will save. And there is nothing else in scripture outlining or detailing another way or another plan. Christ it is. Faith is it. Being grafted back onto the tree...the one body...is it.

    Perhaps. Perhaps this is what scripture is saying...there are those who argue for it and against. But here's the thing: there's nothing that says for certain that Israel cannot do these things without the Church being present. So there's nothing biblically pressing in these events that call for the Rapture of the Church first. Also, there's nothing here that says these Jews will not be Christians just like we are, and so are just Jewish members of the body. As Christians we say there is no more 'Jew or Greek', but persecution from evil has never recognized those boundaries. Jews, especially Christian Jews, may very well face the prospect of fleeing in the last days.

    This still makes zero sense. I fully grasp what you are saying about 'hour' not meaning an actual 60 minute period. But just because it instead means a fixed period or time in 'general' does not mean, in ANY way, you can suddenly wack 1000 years in there. Talk about non-literal!
    What that understanding of 'hour' allows you to say is this: "a time is coming when" or "a time has been fixed when".
    It does NOT allow you to go: "A thousand years from now is coming when".... and then expect people to take the 1000 years literally! When the text says nothing about it. At all.
    *eyeroll*


    No, we see one. We only see multiple when we start squeezing in time gaps because we can't wiggle on our doctrines.
    Dan 12:2 speak of the resurrection of good and evil being at the same time, as does John 5:28-29. So when we see the Rapture passages that speak of the dead in Christ being raised then, we have zero biblical reason to imagine that along with the dead believers, the wicked dead are not also being raised and judged. Especially when we look at the GWT judgment in Revelation, which speaks of Death and Hades giving up all their dead for judgment. This judgment shows both righteous and wicked being judged at the same time.
    Again...there is nothing allowing us to separate these. And I have already been over the verses that discuss the 'first resurrection'. Which you haven't discussed yet...could be you haven't gotten there! We're getting a bit long, aren't we?

    "It will be given to a future generation". Two problems with this. First, it still seems under the disillusion that the Kingdom is not, at present, in the hands of others. As I showed with extensive verses, Jesus clearly told the Jews that the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to 'another people'. That was the Gentiles. And we can see the truth in that claim as the gospel of the kingdom of heaven went out to the nations in Acts and the epistles.
    The second issue is this: Jews from that moment on til this moment now, COULD receive the kingdom. All they had to do was accept Christ. The Disciples were Jews of that generation, and they were the first ones IN the Kingdom. There have been Jewish believers all the way down through the last 2000 years and all of them have been accepted into the Kingdom.
    The kingdom is a very real and present reality. It is not something that is waiting for when the Jews will toe the line and welcome Messiah.
    If you disagree with me, please attempt to show ALL the verses I presented were either wrong and misinterpreted. You have a habit of just presenting these notions like their scripture. They're not.

    Jer 31:31: The 'New Covenant' is not proof that Israel is to have a new kingdom and 'reign over the Gentiles'. The NC is the inclusion of the Gentiles! It's the breaking down of barriers between the walls...between Jew and Gentile and between God and man. Grace...all around grace. Not land. Not in the physical sense. Don't you get it? Those in the NC are not salivating over a small parcel of land. We see the promised new earth. Where God will dwell with us and every man, woman and child will live with him and each other in perfect peace. No more war for tiny parcels of land, all share freely of the bounty of the earth.

    Dispensationalists think too small.

    Well, in this I can hope you are correct, but we'll have to see.
     
  4. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Nothing but an analogy using marriage to describe the "as one" unity the body should have w/ the head and each other.
     
  5. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    The day of the Lord begins w/ wrath but it does not stay in wrath. the wrath has a purpose, to judge the enemies of God and to bring in the millennial era which is also the day of the Lord.
     
  6. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    Sure, there are 'flashbacks' and further details in Revelation. But the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls is a set sequence of events. They are placed in order, the Seals all removed first, then the Trumpets and Bowls are directed at the ungodly peoples, leading up to Jesus Returning at the 7th Bowl, which is Armageddon.
    It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies. The Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun, which will clear and cleanse His Land. Most clearly described in Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 63:1-6 and Habakkuk 3:12Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’
    Note: the Lord is not seen on this Day: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4
    This is the Day He comes as a thief, unexpectedly, sudden and shocking the world. 2 Thessalonians 5:3

    Then, much later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He visibly Returns in His glory and disposes of the armies of the Anti Christ. Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5
    NOT by fire, worldwide earthquakes or storms, but by the Sword of His Word. The two Days of the Lord simply do not match, it is wrong to say they all happen on one day.
     
  7. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    And you make up a scenario to fit your preconceived beliefs!

    At least I find direct support from the language of Scipture as written.

    Revelation 19
    King James Version

    19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

    2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

    3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

    But you say based on your taught bias that this shouting is done because God wakes them up from soul sleep inorder to shout, then I guess they take some more NYQUIL and go back to bed! And there is no biblical warrant for that!

    Now this verse:

    7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    Now this verse is the 2nd punctiliar aorist. Aorist has no value for time. so the fasct it says it has come- means it has come! A good word picture is when people are gathered in a church for a wedding, then when they hear the organ, they shout- the wedding is come!

    But you want to make this happen on earth somehow! At least the verb defends a heavenly wedding!

    Then we have this verse:

    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

    Now this follows the shouting, the wedding and then Jesus returns with all the hosts of heaven! But you make this happen before the wedding because of some special revelation that God kept this a mystery and somehow or for some reason intentionally messed with the order when He inspired JOhn so that we all would have to await for this special revelation to straighten out the mess God made!

    But gioven how God knew how JOhn understood Jewish weddings (cuz he was a Jew) God used that scenario to show that Jesus wedding the church is done privately (in heaven) then Jesus and the bride return to earth and after the war to vanquish the antichrist , false prophet and the worlds' armies assembled aganst HIm, Jesus establishes the long awaited kingdom and celebrates His wedding supper! That is the natural normal understanding of how this works out chronologically and keeping faith with the whole wedding scenarion.
     
  8. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    If you are so settled that the sequence of the seals, trumpets and bowls are in chronological order, why are you so willing to scramble the chronology of Rev. 19?
     
  9. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well to try to summarize this post.

    1. It is erroneous to form doctrine from parables.
    2. There has always been a kingdom!
    3. Right now we are in the "mystery" form of the kingdom. That is as prophesied in the OT, god would take out of teh gentiles a people for HImself! this is the time when the gospel goes out to all! As was promised in the OT
    4. there is no 2 stage kingdom I preach or any teachers I respect teach!
    5. there is the promised kingdom for Israel which was announced when Jesus was on earth , until the leaders committed the unpardonable sin.
    Then as Jesus promised it was taken from that generation and will be given to another generation of Jews who will receive it! If you notice, you will see that the gospel of the kingdom was no longer preached after the unpardonable sin. But Jesus then began to teach the Apostles for teh church!
    6. the church is the bride of Jesus, whereas OT Israel is the wife of Jehovah! He has divorced them but also promised to remarry them again . For His promises are yea and Amen!

    But the fact that Israel is the focus of teh millenial kingdom on earth?

    1. Matt. 19:28 The apostles rule over the twelve tribes of ISrael in the millenial kingdom
    2. Is. 32: 1 The re will be princes in the millenial kngdom
    3. Ez. 45:8 Princes will rule Israel in justice
    4. Deut. 15:6 Israel rules over gentiles
    5. Deut. 28:1 Israel to reign on high (now while this has a conditional aspect- Zech 13 and Ez. 20:30-38 clearly show that God will with a strong arm bring the final 1/3 of Israel into the bond of the covenant)
    6. Is. 14:2 Gentiles will come to Israel.
    7. The New Covenant Jer. 31:31-34 is primarily for Israel! And promises a future place for ISrael and its people!
    Is. 30:18-22, Is. 29:22-24, Is. 44:21-23, Is. 45:17, Jer. 24:7 ,Jer. 50:19-20, Ez. 11:19-20, Ez. 36:25-27, Hosea1:10-2:1, Hosea 14:4-8,Joel 2:28-32, Zeph 3:9-13 these are all promises god made to Israel in the midst of its backsliding and captivity!

    The promise of God regathering Israel to her promised land!

    Deut. 30:1-10, Is. 11:11-12:6, Is. 27:12-13, Is.43:5-7 ( the gathering is global), Amos :)14-15, Zeph 3:18-20, Matt. 24:31, Ez.28:5-6, Ez. 34:25-31, EZ. 36:28-38, Joel 2:18-27

    The millenial mountain

    Is. 2:2-4, Is. 56:6-8<Micah 4:1-2, Is. 66:20, Ez. 45:1-8 measures out the area.

    If yo uwish I can give you passages about eh Millenial Jerusalem and the role of gentiles in the Millenial kingdom. Remember the gentiles are the believing survivors of the tribulation and enter into teh kingdom (the sheep of Matt. 25)
     
  10. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Since Keraz does not believe in the Rapture, he has to find a way out of his dilemma. And Naomi has to find a way out of her dilemma by making outrageous claims about Dispensationalism.
     
  11. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well your problem is only because you demand that teh church has to endure the tribulation period which Scripture simply doesn't support!

    Well the physical kingdom has been temporarily withdrawn, then Jesus announced the mystery form of teh kingdom! That is just taking Scripture at its face value!

    REad the passages I cited further on this thread and understand!

    And amills love vagueness because it allows them to do many things to Scripture as shown by books written.
    It was vague because Jesus doidn't know, just as Jesus said- that was information the Father has kept to HImself. And no Israel did not forget teh purposes of the Lord. They knew their Messiah was to save them and give them a kingdom as the verses I posted show! What they did forget however was that the OTY spoke of two comings of their Messiah, the first as Suffering Savior, teh Second as Conquering King!

    And I thought better of your ability to understand the difference between OT saints under the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenant and the the saints called the church!

    Well as I believe these teachings and have done the Berean thing and searched the Scriptures I placed them here. They go into much greter detail than is allowable here.

    Correct! For all these OT saints are in heaven glorified now! The physical kingdom is not for them.

    NO that is you just adding to my words!

    Yes Jesus is god! But He is inferior to His Father in position! God the Father is the most exalted!
    that does not subtract from Jesus' absolute diety, just teh bible shows clearly the Son is inferior in position to the Father! Even at teh end of teh MIllenial kingdom this occurs:

    1 Cor. 15:
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    So Jesus is equally God with His Father but does not hold the same position as HIs Father! this is SCripture!
     
  12. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well I have now shown you the mass of SCripture that shows what I write is "not my ideas".

    But to save time I would encourage you politely to study these video teachings. This is a man who can run rings around anyone biblically!

    The final restoration of Israel
    Pre trib rapture
    Olivet discourse
    Jews and the Tribulation
    The error of replacement theology
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6atpy54NLM The church, Israel and the latter days
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9GR_ROg40w promise of the land in the Abrahamic covenant
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKmaGsTMdqY Calling of the bride at the feast of Trumpets.

    So you know, these are my references sources. I look up the Scriptures from these books and videos and cite them here! I freely admit that I rely on those who taught me what I believe the Scriptures say! And I can quote numerous Covenant amill theologians and the wide divergence in views they have.
     
  13. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well from what I can glean from his ideas, He does believe in a kind of sort of rapture.

    If I got him right, As Jesus is descending from the 3rd heaven to earth in REv. 19, sometime right before He touches down He grabs all believers from around the globe and puts them somewhere. I think it is Jerusalem.
     
  14. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe in a 'rapture to heaven'. That theory is not supported by any scripture, it has to be assumed and surmised.
    When Jesus Returns, He will send out His angels to gather those who remain alive to where He is. Matthew 24:30-31 That would be Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:3

    You cannot build any timing proofs around when and where the Marriage and the Supper will be. The Bible just does not tell us.
    As we humans never go to heaven, it must be on earth, after Jesus Returns.
     
  15. Stumpmaster

    Stumpmaster Well-Known Member

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    How do the Jehovah's Witnesses interpret these verses?

    Rev 7:9-17 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sit upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (11) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, (12) Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. (13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? (14) And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sits on the throne shall dwell among them. (16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. (17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
     
  16. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    @Naomi25 I think it's fair to say from the witness of Scripture that peoples and individuals will be judged according to the light they may have received. Some have been in great darkness; others have had the oracles of God.
     
  17. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Once again I direct you to your post number #495. In response to my explanation of how Covenant theologians used imagery in scripture, you not only called my answer deceptive, covenant theologians dishonest, but also told me that you had been studying all this for "2 decades"!
    So, I ask you, if you were first told you were being deceptive and fundamentally dishonest in your understanding and then dared to bring questions against a towering 2 decades of teaching. Not learning...teaching, no less....would you not see that at a person being a little "high-horse-y?"
     
  18. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    @Naomi25 As much as answering 'when?' in terms of the Lord's coming in Scripture, there is also the question of 'for whom?'. I don't see that 1 Cor. 10.32, with its distinct groups of ppl, allows me to lump everyone together.
     
  19. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Semantics. As you very well know. If I am giving an answer that I know is deceptive, then I am being deceptive. Thus the line in the sand of calling one or the other deceptive doesn't wash. Both are deceptive as well you know.
    If the answer I give is wrong, but I believe it to be true, then the answer I give is mistaken or in error, not deceptive. And therefore you ought to call me mistaken, as is my 'answer'.
    The problem here is you assumed that I was both complicit and aware that my answer was wrong and gave it anyway. Thus you called both my answer AND me deceptive.

    Let me give you a little example. I could, just as easily say: "Roland, all the answers you've given me thus far are incredibly deceptive and dishonest."

    See how that makes the basic assumption that YOU are engaging in deceit and dishonesty?

    At the VERY least, you've worded your accusation very poorly indeed. How much more gracious would it have been to say something like "Naomi, I think you very mistaken and that you've been deceived. Your answers are very wrong."

    Again, your MISTAKE here is assuming you know me, or anyone else well enough to know who is mistaken and who is deceptive. And that's assuming their teaching is, in fact, in error. You have not, in any way, proved that. Not logically, not biblically.
    In point of fact, it seems you are very good at repeating Dispensational teaching line for line and pointing to Dispensational teachers...but not so good at backing up these thoughts and points by sound exegesis. So I would perhaps suggest that before you start looking for error further away from home, you do it closer.

    You may be convinced of whatever you like, but it doesn't make it true. This is why whenever we make a claim it is so very important to hedge it with scripture. I don't suppose I have everything correct. I don't suppose those I read do either. But what I attempt to do, as do those I enjoy reading and listening to, is to carefully track my thoughts and ideas WITH scripture. I follow my logic jumps WITH God's word. You seem, like many Dispensationalists, to just expound with grandiose expectation, the plot that you believe must be true. Why? Because it is. I have found little to no solid biblical explanation for these beliefs. I have found no critical arguments against what I have put to you, biblically, either my questions or my own ideas. You contradict your own ideas and claims in many places, and are illogical in others.
    You mean I am engaging in false accusation? Character slander? My goodness...YOU started this conversation between us by making false assumptions about my understandings, beliefs, claims and intentions. And you think I'm engaging in character slander?
     
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  20. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I...at this point still see the Millennial period as happening during this time period, for various biblical reasons...which I know you will not agree with. That's fine.
    But as far as everything else, I have been leaning more...towards the Post-trib way of reading things, although I am not yet set on these things. I've been listening to some interesting people who have made some fairly convincing points. Points that I have not been able to dismiss. I like those sorts of points...they make me think!
    I do think its the sort of time in human history when we all need to be watching and thinking of these things fairly hard. I imagine we'll all still be a little surprised by how it all goes down.
     
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