John Darby

[Naomi25]

Sorry I am late in replying. I have been retired for 15 months now and I am so busy I can't imagine how I found time to have a career!

Lol! Yes, I can imagine. There are some weeks where it feels impossible to find time to 'get online'...and if you do, your mind is whirling from all you do, it can sometimes be hard to pick up the threads of conversation.

Well I agree with all you said here! And I admit, I have read many reformed and covenant theologies on Israel and never saw this! For what you write here is standard dispensational teaching.

And from my part...fairly standard covenantal teaching. It used to bug me no end that I'd get the "Amil's are replacement theologists" thing all the time, because, as I've said, for the most part, the folks I've listened to and read, just don't believe or teach that!
Having said that, I HAVE since come across some people who believe things that I've gone "ah...that's it...that's probably what they're talking about". For example, NT Wright seems to right-off the Jewish people completely, now, future, everything. Which I think flies in the face of Romans 11, if nothing else.
But yeah...could just be you're listening to a bunch of 'NT Wrights' and I haven't, because the majority of those I AM, just don't go that direction.

The only thing is we go further and show that at the end of the tribulation period, the 1/3 of Israel that survives the tribulation will get saved and their prayer causes Jesus to return! And that the gentiles who survive the tribulation, are separated into sheep and goats. the goats get cast into hell awaiting the lake of fire and the sheep enter the kingdom! I listed many of the numerous verses showing that God makes a distinction between teh Jews and Gentiles IN the Kingdom ONLY! The church, martyred trib saints, OT saints are not part of this distinction. As Scriptures unambiguously show.

Again, you know I disagree with you here. Your perception of the sheep and goats? How can the goats go into the 'lake of fire' and the sheep go 'into the kingdom' (by which I presume you mean the millennium), when the text specifically tells us that the sheep go into eternal life? Both lake of fire and 'eternal life' are not the 'millennium' period, but the 'eternal' period; the new heavens and earth.
I think...if we're tentatively going to touch this again, I'm only going to address one issue at a time, for sake of brevity and clarity, which we struggled with last time.

 

[Naomi25]

I rechecked post 533 of yours. It is filled with assumptions and pulling different doctrines about different issues to justify making this a one resurrection event!

Sorry but I rebutted it before with Scripture as written and not allegorized! But let me ask you this:

How do you know and by what authority do you trust your allegorical reinterpretation of this passage is teh correct one from several out there?

Let us look again!

Looking at this from the literal/historical/grammatical method of hermeneutics we can absolutely conclude the following:

We see no language to say anything here is allegorical, metaphorical or symbolic! No "like", Likened unto" , "is as" or any other comparative terms to let us know that god was making a comparison!

The passage in question:

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. -Revelation 20:1–6

You say there is nothing in this passage that compels us to take it in any other way but in a strictly literal way. I disagree. The passage begins "Then I saw...". This phrase also begins other passages that are clearly symbolic. Daniel 2:31,41,43 when Daniel begins and continues interpreting the Kings dream. Again in Daniel 7:2 when Daniel himself is having a vision, he says "I saw in my night vision..." he is clearly being shown images and symbols.
Now...the very nature of "visions" are that they come in pictures...images...and, usually we see in scripture, symbols. This does not mean they do not represent something very real and true. As we see in Daniel. The sheep and the goat represented very real Kingdoms, but when Daniel 'saw', God used images to portray them.
When we come to Revelation, the beginning of the book tells us that John is being 'shown' these things. They are being revealed to him in visions, images..and yes, symbols. But still...very real.
Rev 20 is interesting, because while, yes, it doesn't tell us directly 'like unto', it still leaves us with certain knowable facts. Like: if we for the whole passage into literalistic reading, it's not going to fit. So, what I mean by that is: Do we assume the angel is literal? Yes. No reason not to. Satan? Sure. Him being bound and restrained in some way? Of course, absolutely. By a physical chain and key? Well....probably not. Satan is a spiritual creature, no physical chain is going to hold him. We automatically adjust in our minds that the chain is an image portraying a real spiritual restraint on a spiritual creature. But if we were to read that part of the passage in a strictly literal sense, then Satan could be bound by a bit of metal chain, and consequently, any dude who managed to corner him with a bit of metal chain, could possibly have a chance of restraining him themselves. Who knew...Supernatural was right! I am, of course, being facetious.
My point being, we do indeed have indication for taking some of this passage in a symbolic light, in fact, should we try and take it all in a strictly literal sense, we run aground the shoal of pure nonsense.

But we shall humor you for a moment and assume the 1,000 years mentioned 4 times here is symbolic.
1. It must be symbolic of some passage of time!

Once again, I'm going to just focus in on a single issue, for clarity and brevity. This is not because I wish to dismiss your other points, or don't wish to answer them. I just feel when we spoke last the thread got so long we lost track of each others points/arguments and things got lost in translation. That does not help dialogue.

Not MUST. You see, when I come to a passage like Rev 20, I don't like to force myself into 'must' places, I like to question, to seek. We have a passage which, as I point out above, clearly uses both literal and symbolic literary devices. The whole book does. That means you need to be asking yourself the whole time 'how is it asking me to read this time?'. You can take in the surrounding landscape of the book itself, but as I've said before, it's vital to go back to both the OT and the NT and glean how other scriptures handle the usage of 1000 in particular, numbers in general, and, in specific, how it speaks towards the time directly AFTER Christ's earthly, visible return.
When you start putting together this tapestry of biblical threads, a picture begins to form. One that happily uses 1000 in a symbolic way. Not always, but often. One that is strong on use of numbers in both accurate AND symbolic way...over and over again, certain numbers pop up in scripture. We weave together a picture of two ages, one now where the 'wheat and weeds grow together', and another where we find 'eternity'. Two sides of a coin...but no third side, no 'half way' so to speak.
So, you see, it is after a great deal of pouring through scripture, weighing of it, considering it against other scriptures, that we look back at Rev 20 and say that it it most likely not a 'literal' thousand years. And yes, I argue for that because I see it in scripture. But I'm not going to declare MUST. I am not all-knowing, all-demanding. God has his plans and I am not privy to them. If he wants a 1000 year earthly reign, I'm good with that. I just honestly don't see it, anywhere, in his word.

 

[Davy]

You want to break down what is 'really' possible regarding God's word and nothing else? Fine; as do I. But in that case, you ought to be asking yourself more about what and how Christ himself spoke about HIS Kingdom, rather than a single passage in an apocalyptic book.
And by that I mean:
Christ clearly tells us that his Kingdom began when he first came:

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. -Matthew 12:28

One of the worse things to do with God's Word is to simply quote one verse out of context and apply a whole doctrine of men to it instead. That is what you just did above.

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
KJV

That part He says, "if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight" is a huge hint to when His Kingdom will manifest in the near future; on the day of His literal return. That is when His servants are going to fight (Rev.19).

Christ also tells us that the Kingdom is not coming in a way expected in the OT...in other words, in a physical, theocratic way:

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” -Luke 17:20–21

Once again, you push men's doctrines that try to change the actual context of Scripture. Lord Jesus and His Apostles preached a future LITERAL KINGDOM on earth in the world to come...

Zech 9:10
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV

All I have to quote also is the Zechariah 14 Chapter which is about Jesus' return to Jerusalem on earth, and reigns over all nations in the future Millennium time. Also is the Daniel 2 Scripture about His Kingdom being setup for the saints ending all the kingdoms of this world, which Rev.11 on the 7th Trumpet also gives a direct parallel to when His Kingdom is setup LITERALLY on this earth. David's throne which Jesus is to inherit, is an earthly throne also, which is yet another Biblical proof of Jesus' coming Kingdom upon this earth in our near future at His return.

There's just so many... Biblical pointers to Christ's Kingdom being a literal kingdom and yet future, one would have to be totally belligerent to God's Word to miss all the Scripture evidence.

But is there such a thing as His spiritual Kingdom too? Yes, of course, and that only is what is already established here on earth today via His Church. But God's Word reveals a literal physical Kingdom is to be established also. Even Christ's promise to His Apostles sitting upon 12 thrones over the 12 tribes of Israel is proof of His future literal physical kingdom. And the Book of Ezekiel gives the physical layout of those 12 tribes in final on earth, in the holy lands of promise, which is still yet to happen.

So one can play one-verse Sam all day, but it won't lead anyone to God's Truth, because that is man's way, not God's Way.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

If these, openly hostile to Christ, come to stand before him after they die, and he waves them through into eternity, what then about the whole NT? Why the gospel? Why the call to come to Christ at all? Why Christs death upon the cross if he was going to wave through unrepentant, unregenerate people?

revisiting...maybe you’ve forgotten the conversation? Thought of it the other day. First no one is suggesting ‘wave through unrepentant’ only consider ‘Why the gospel? Why the call to come to Christ at all?’ For that which is prepared of God. Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

What Glory? What thankfulness? What praise? What Grace and Mercy and Forgiveness and Long-suffering and forbearance? 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, [5] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; [6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; [7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.


1 Timothy 5:24-25 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. [25] Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And from my part...fairly standard covenantal teaching. It used to bug me no end that I'd get the "Amil's are replacement theologists" thing all the time, because, as I've said, for the most part, the folks I've listened to and read, just don't believe or teach that!
Having said that, I HAVE since come across some people who believe things that I've gone "ah...that's it...that's probably what they're talking about". For example, NT Wright seems to right-off the Jewish people completely, now, future, everything. Which I think flies in the face of Romans 11, if nothing else.
But yeah...could just be you're listening to a bunch of 'NT Wrights' and I haven't, because the majority of those I AM, just don't go that direction.

Well I haven't read Wright. But where we do differ is that I accept a literal physical kingdom of 1,000 years where God will fulfill all His promises to the nation of Israel and grant the nation a kingdom where they also rise above all Gentile believers in the kingdom. I also explained who is the nation (the 1/3 of Zech. 13). This is our big difference and it has caused you to believe in one resurrection of the dead, and any kingdom is not what is described throughout the OT.

Interesting factoid: The only new thing about the kingdom Jesus will reign over on eart that is found in the NT is its length-1,000 years! then remember when Jesus vanquishes death at teh end of that 1,000 years He gives the kingdom back to HIs Father and returns as "Prince" or Word of God or whatever new title He will have entering into eternity!

Again, you know I disagree with you here. Your perception of the sheep and goats? How can the goats go into the 'lake of fire' and the sheep go 'into the kingdom' (by which I presume you mean the millennium), when the text specifically tells us that the sheep go into eternal life? Both lake of fire and 'eternal life' are not the 'millennium' period, but the 'eternal' period; the new heavens and earth.
I think...if we're tentatively going to touch this again, I'm only going to address one issue at a time, for sake of brevity and clarity, which we struggled with last time.

Well we have entered in to eternal life already though we will still die unless the rapture comes first!

But remember that the conclusion of Matthew 25 started with this:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

the goats do not enter the lake of fire just then. They go to the compartment of hell called the place of torments awaiting final destination into the lake of fire! Yes they start torment, but remember death has not yet been destroyed in the lake of fire.

The second death does not occur until that symbolic 1,000 years (your words) ends and Satan is loosed from the abyss to decieve the nations once more!

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now if the 1,000 years is symbolic, what is it symbolic of? Some amils say it is symbolic of the church age and teh church is what is binding Satan for this symbolic passage of time!

But the bible clearly says that when that symbolic passage of time ends, Satan is loosed and goes out to decieve all the nations, AGAIN! (v.3&8)

So where did the church go?

If it symbolic of something else what is that? Whose symbolism of the many is the right one? Why not just accept the Bible here at its face value!

There is the battle that Satans son wages starting at Armegeddon, and now we see Satan himself going to deceive the nations and marshal them for war against the camp of the saints and the beloved city! What does that mean if it is all symbolic and not a description of the end of Jesus reign of the kingdom?

 

[Naomi25]

One of the worse things to do with God's Word is to simply quote one verse out of context and apply a whole doctrine of men to it instead. That is what you just did above.

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
KJV

He said, scolding me by quoting a single verse and giving his opinion of it in response.
Pot....Kettle. Goose....gander.
You see where I'm going here.
What makes YOUR 'single' verse and opinion on it more valid than mine? Because its YOUR opinion?
And, by the way, I most certainly did NOT give "a single verse", did I? You quote a single verse, but in actuality I gave many in order to show where I was getting my 'doctrine' from. And if one is not supposed to build a doctrine from a great many of biblical passages speaking about a single topic....then where on earth do you suppose doctrines come from?

That part He says, "if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight" is a huge hint to when His Kingdom will manifest in the near future; on the day of His literal return. That is when His servants are going to fight (Rev.19).

Nope. Wrong. Keep reading. "But..." You forget that the passage is an "IF, BUT" scenario. He starts by saying 'my kingdom is NOT of this world.' Fairly blatant, but in case we don't get it, he goes on to round it up...'IF it were of this world, my servants would fight'. IF. 'BUT my kingdom IS NOT from the world.'
That is why they are NOT fighting. Not because they are 'waiting for the right time'....something the passage in no way says and is complete conjecture to speculate it is suggesting such future fulfillment. No...they do not fight BECAUSE the kingdom is 'not of this world'.
It a simple matter of grammar and understanding.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

Once again, you push men's doctrines that try to change the actual context of Scripture. Lord Jesus and His Apostles preached a future LITERAL KINGDOM on earth in the world to come...

Zech 9:10
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV

Again, he says, quoting an OT passage after stating that JESUS preached something. Hows about you quote what Jesus DID preach on the topic of the Kingdom? We could start here as I pointed out before:

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” -Luke 17:20–21

Or, we could dig a little deeper. When we DO go back to the OT and the promises made to Israel, we look at Jeremiah, Chapters 30-33. Here we clearly see what many regard as kingdom promises to Israel. However, it also, right in the middle of it, includes the promise of the new covenant. And when we reach the NT, we see this;

And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. -Luke 22:20

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” -John 3:3

Jesus Christ is clearly linking the new covenant promises made back in Jeremiah 31 to the kingdom he came proclaiming. Which was one of spiritual renewal, rebirth and by God reigning over them by faith.
This is why Christ could say without contradicting the prophets:

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” -Luke 17:20–21

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

It was because the new covenantal kingdom was not a theocratic, earthly kingdom. It was one far greater. One that liberated heart and soul from sin.

All I have to quote also is the Zechariah 14 Chapter which is about Jesus' return to Jerusalem on earth, and reigns over all nations in the future Millennium time. Also is the Daniel 2 Scripture about His Kingdom being setup for the saints ending all the kingdoms of this world, which Rev.11 on the 7th Trumpet also gives a direct parallel to when His Kingdom is setup LITERALLY on this earth. David's throne which Jesus is to inherit, is an earthly throne also, which is yet another Biblical proof of Jesus' coming Kingdom upon this earth in our near future at His return.

There's just so many... Biblical pointers to Christ's Kingdom being a literal kingdom and yet future, one would have to be totally belligerent to God's Word to miss all the Scripture evidence.

But is there such a thing as His spiritual Kingdom too? Yes, of course, and that only is what is already established here on earth today via His Church. But God's Word reveals a literal physical Kingdom is to be established also. Even Christ's promise to His Apostles sitting upon 12 thrones over the 12 tribes of Israel is proof of His future literal physical kingdom. And the Book of Ezekiel gives the physical layout of those 12 tribes in final on earth, in the holy lands of promise, which is still yet to happen.

So one can play one-verse Sam all day, but it won't lead anyone to God's Truth, because that is man's way, not God's Way.

Mmm, but as I said, saying I only provided 'one verse' is misleading at best.
It's all well and good to say that a person is being lead astray by "mans doctrines"...but as the bible was progressive revelation, then if you cannot provide a goodly number of NT verses to prove a literal fulfillment of OT verses, you're in trouble. Anyone who lets the OT tell Jesus how to interpret things is in error.

 

[farouk]

Interesting, sure, surprising, no. We see at the beginning of the book that the 12 tribes and 12 apostles are represented in the 24 thrones around God's throne. In a book whose general purpose is to 'sum up' the divine purpose of God's salvific plan, it should not surprise anyone that God points back to the tribes of Israel, through whom he brought forth his old covenant, nor points to the birth of the Church with whom he established his new covenant. In weaving these two peoples together, before the throne AND in the New Jerusalem, we are yet again being shown how God bought his plan to a single fruition. A final city where we shall all dwell as one with God in our midst. I think in no way does this spell out a division present of continuing between the Church and Israel.

@Naomi25 Kind of shows anyway the perspectives of Israel and the church as the wife of Jehovah and the Bride of Christ, respectively.

 

[Naomi25]

revisiting...maybe you’ve forgotten the conversation? Thought of it the other day. First no one is suggesting ‘wave through unrepentant’ only consider ‘Why the gospel? Why the call to come to Christ at all?’ For that which is prepared of God. Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

What Glory? What thankfulness? What praise? What Grace and Mercy and Forgiveness and Long-suffering and forbearance? 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, [5] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; [6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; [7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.


1 Timothy 5:24-25 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. [25] Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

Yes, I remember our conversation.
You say you're not suggesting 'waving through the unrepentant', but unless I'm gravely misunderstanding you (which is always possible), there does seem to be a bit of 'if/then' happening. And by that I mean, you say that 'if' people unrepentant in THIS life are but another way for God to show his grace and mercy and that these sinners will ultimately come to him (in some form or manner), 'then' indeed you are claiming that people who remain 'unrepentant' until the end are indeed 'waved through'.
Which seems to be in great contradiction with many scriptures. That being that while God IS indeed a just, loving, great and merciful God full of grace, he has extended, through much sacrifice on his part, THE way to come to him: Christ and him crucified. When we consider that Jesus is THE way, truth and life, and that NO ONE may come to the Father by any other mean, plus other verses that tell us that it is for men to die once and THEN be judged...I'm not seeing anything in scripture that would allow for men who remain unrepentant and in blatant rejection of Christ until their end, in any way redeemed. And if they are not redeemed, then for them is judgment. And considering how often judgment is spoken of in scripture, that too cannot be dismissed as an irrelevant idea or a reality that does not exist.

 

[Naomi25]

Well I haven't read Wright. But where we do differ is that I accept a literal physical kingdom of 1,000 years where God will fulfill all His promises to the nation of Israel and grant the nation a kingdom where they also rise above all Gentile believers in the kingdom. I also explained who is the nation (the 1/3 of Zech. 13). This is our big difference and it has caused you to believe in one resurrection of the dead, and any kingdom is not what is described throughout the OT.

Interesting factoid: The only new thing about the kingdom Jesus will reign over on eart that is found in the NT is its length-1,000 years! then remember when Jesus vanquishes death at teh end of that 1,000 years He gives the kingdom back to HIs Father and returns as "Prince" or Word of God or whatever new title He will have entering into eternity!

Quick question: It's a bit interesting, don't you think, that you think "Israel" gets to rule over the Gentiles, when Jesus actually tells us something different in the NT:

Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. -Matthew 19:28

Well we have entered in to eternal life already though we will still die unless the rapture comes first!

I'm sorry. I beg your pardon? Could you say that a little louder?
We have already "entered into eternal life", you say?
I'm assuming you mean because of the new, everlasting life we have in Christ, right? That is, the new life we have in Christ when we were born again in the Spirit? When our own spirits moved from death into the assurance of life everlasting?
I really wish there was a face/palm emoji. Or a "can you see the irony" emoji.
You dismiss my biblical attempts to show you just this from scripture when speaking of 'the first resurrection'...mostly, I suspect, because it upsets your doctrine if it's correct, but now, here we are, oops, you just admit to it. Which makes your denial of the 'first resurrection' being anything but physical a tad wobbly.

But remember that the conclusion of Matthew 25 started with this:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

the goats do not enter the lake of fire just then. They go to the compartment of hell called the place of torments awaiting final destination into the lake of fire! Yes they start torment, but remember death has not yet been destroyed in the lake of fire.

You are putting both time limitations and assumptions on this passage that simply are not there. That, I am fairly sure, is not only not 'allowed' by your own hermeneutic, but its questionable by any standard of biblical exegesis. It does not, in any way, tell us that there is a 'compartment' of hell they go to, or that these 'goats' have been sent there rather than hell.
What the passage DOES tell us is this:
Vv 34: "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."
Vv 41: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels".
Vv 46: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".

You can assume, if you want, that the kingdom being spoken of is the Millennial kingdom, but if we are just reading the text in the most faithful way, we can see that it leads us to conclude that it is one that takes us into 'eternal life'. That is not the Millennial kingdom.
We can also see that the 'eternal punishment' spoken of, is not a 'compartment of waiting', but the self same 'eternal punishment' that was prepared for the devil and his angels. Anyone who knows Rev 20 knows this to be the lake of fire.

The second death does not occur until that symbolic 1,000 years (your words) ends and Satan is loosed from the abyss to decieve the nations once more!


Now if the 1,000 years is symbolic, what is it symbolic of? Some amils say it is symbolic of the church age and teh church is what is binding Satan for this symbolic passage of time!

But the bible clearly says that when that symbolic passage of time ends, Satan is loosed and goes out to decieve all the nations, AGAIN! (v.3&8)

So where did the church go?

If it symbolic of something else what is that? Whose symbolism of the many is the right one? Why not just accept the Bible here at its face value!

There is the battle that Satans son wages starting at Armegeddon, and now we see Satan himself going to deceive the nations and marshal them for war against the camp of the saints and the beloved city! What does that mean if it is all symbolic and not a description of the end of Jesus reign of the kingdom?

We can certainly discuss these issues later, if you wish, but again, let's discuss the above point first, as I believe it's both a simple issue, but one lacking clarity.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Kind of shows anyway the perspectives of Israel and the church as the wife of Jehovah and the Bride of Christ, respectively.

Well, I suppose it shows how people end up with that perspective. I...don't think I can find myself landing there, when I consider that whole 'story' of scripture. The way the NT argues so hard for a single people of God under the saving grace of Christ...indeed, even though there are separate person's in the Trinity, they too are 'one'....I struggle to find a biblically acceptable place where I can comfortably sit in the notion of 'wife AND bride'.
I might very well be wrong, but thus far, that's where I land.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, I remember our conversation.
You say you're not suggesting 'waving through the unrepentant', but unless I'm gravely misunderstanding you (which is always possible), there does seem to be a bit of 'if/then' happening. And by that I mean, you say that 'if' people unrepentant in THIS life are but another way for God to show his grace and mercy and that these sinners will ultimately come to him (in some form or manner), 'then' indeed you are claiming that people who remain 'unrepentant' until the end are indeed 'waved through'.

no. Read the same verses as you. Only saying maybe we don’t see the bigger picture. For instance in the OT where all that which was unclean was put without the camp (the leper’s being among that which was unclean) and that being where Christ suffered without the gate. At the time that would have been unthinkable, even though it was there hidden until God decided. That was the reason for quoting 1 Timothy 5:24-25 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. [25] Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

^what does the above mean to you? Why some open beforehand going on to judgement; and some men follow after?

speaking to you hopefully as a sister, my thoughts may be silly but still I have them. Right or wrong.

1) God is not willing any perish but is long suffering that all might come to repentance. Not willing...with His will be done. Does He not say (charity) hopes all things, bears all things so doubtfully (again I could be wrong) God will be disappointed in hoping all things and of the mind ‘not willing any perish but all might come to repentance.’ Yet men would spit on it which (imo) is telling in itself...because they did something to earn grace, mercy and forgiveness. It wasn’t a gift. And those who didn’t earn the gift...well God better not! Not until we see them dance and perform they are worthy. That alone, how much the thought is despised makes it worth considering. (Imo).

2) most of my life I was pretrib and was perfectly content with some being chosen and others rejected. I was content with hell, for family and friends who reject Him and His message burning in hell...just not me because I said a prayer. It was the word which changed my mind. Not the church building. Not men. The word hearing something so beautiful, so loving, so tender, so patient, so enduring, so forbearing of all my failures and deception and lies and filth and destruction.

3) He says to bless those who curse you. Those who hate and despise and use you, bless them. Will God stand by those blessings or are the blessings sown for our sake only?

4) do not see how any blind can open their own eyes to see but it is an act of God alone that gives sight. And He the decider of when saying He is willing to suffer (forbear)the vessels of destruction to reveal mercy on vessels prepared for the sake of the Word of mercy.

5)Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

^what do you think Paul is speaking of in the above. What makes ‘the sufferings of this present time’ diminish and pale in comparison to what is revealed? birthed and delivered out from tribulation?

last one 6) then I’m leaving it alone. You asked then what is the purpose of the crucifix. to condemn the world but that through God it might be saved. Luke 9:55-56 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. [56] For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

 

[farouk]

1 Timothy 5:24-25 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. [25] Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

@VictoryinJesus Definitely two, real, and rather different, destinations, right?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Quick question: It's a bit interesting, don't you think, that you think "Israel" gets to rule over the Gentiles, when Jesus actually tells us something different in the NT:

Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. -Matthew 19:28

Guess you never heard of delegated authority!

The bible says Israel has supremacy over the gentile nations and jthe apostles have supremacy over the 12 tribes and Jesus has supremacy over all.

In the kingdom god also said there would be judges, and pastors and governors and priests. When you put them all together it is not hard!

I'm sorry. I beg your pardon? Could you say that a little louder?
We have already "entered into eternal life", you say?
I'm assuming you mean because of the new, everlasting life we have in Christ, right? That is, the new life we have in Christ when we were born again in the Spirit? When our own spirits moved from death into the assurance of life everlasting?
I really wish there was a face/palm emoji. Or a "can you see the irony" emoji.
You dismiss my biblical attempts to show you just this from scripture when speaking of 'the first resurrection'...mostly, I suspect, because it upsets your doctrine if it's correct, but now, here we are, oops, you just admit to it. Which makes your denial of the 'first resurrection' being anything but physical a tad wobbly.

Being saved is not the "first resurrection" of revelation 20. though I have eternal life, if I die before teh rapture, my body gets buried and then at teh rapture- my body gets resurrected and transformed ! None of that has anything to do with teh first resurrection of REv. 20.

You are putting both time limitations and assumptions on this passage that simply are not there. That, I am fairly sure, is not only not 'allowed' by your own hermeneutic, but its questionable by any standard of biblical exegesis. It does not, in any way, tell us that there is a 'compartment' of hell they go to, or that these 'goats' have been sent there rather than hell.
What the passage DOES tell us is this:
Vv 34: "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."
Vv 41: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels".
Vv 46: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".

You can assume, if you want, that the kingdom being spoken of is the Millennial kingdom, but if we are just reading the text in the most faithful way, we can see that it leads us to conclude that it is one that takes us into 'eternal life'. That is not the Millennial kingdom.
We can also see that the 'eternal punishment' spoken of, is not a 'compartment of waiting', but the self same 'eternal punishment' that was prepared for the devil and his angels. Anyone who knows Rev 20 knows this to be the lake of fire.

Well if these were the only passages speaking on the issues- I would agree with you and we would not have this discussion. But the bible speaks of an earthly kingdom, where people have children (heaven doesn't), prosperity, people farming etc.etc. in righteousness, and Jesus ruling with a rod fo iron and judging sin immediately! That does not take place in heaven.

Maybe at jesus return, the goats are thrown into teh lake of fire and not the place of torments, that is a small issue, because bottom line they are lost and will be punished from that point on.

But see just reading this text and ignoring the rest of SCripture that speak of a future kingdom is foolishness!

Let me ask you these then. When does Jesus give up this kingdom? At his physical return?

When does Satan get loosed if it is not 1,000 years.

Where does he get all the rebels to attack the "beloved city?"

If this is the eternal abode why does God destroy it later?

So your version of the eternal kingdom has satan gathering a rebellion.

That is reading rev. 20 faithfully!

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Before we proceed, please give me succinct answers to these please:

1. If this is eterntiy, are you admitting that Satan will be released to deceive the nations again afer your XXXX time frame?
2. He gathers what appears tro be a massive army to besiege the beloved city (Jerusalem is a safe assumption)
3. YOu conclude then that saved people become unsaved to join satan in this rebellion?
4. If the first resurrection is our being raised to newness of life- then is satan bound now with chains?
5. If 4 is true why is there so much sin on earth? Why did Peter an Paul speak of Satan freely roaming the earth seeking whom he may devour? Was He not bound in the early days of the first resurrection? Scripture?

If Jesus kingdom extends into eternity- why does God destroy the universe?

1 Cor. 15:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

If Jesus is reigning on earth- where is HIs rod of Iron? Do you agree withthe watchtower that evil still exists because Jesus has to fight to end it and it takes time for God to defeat evil in His Kingdom?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@VictoryinJesus Definitely two, real, and rather different, destinations, right?

who would you say decides whose sin is open before going on to judgement, and whose follow after?

 

[farouk]

who would you say decides whose sin is open before going on to judgement, and whose follow after?

The Lord searches the heart (Jeremiah 17.10).

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The Lord searches the heart (Jeremiah 17.10).

great verse! Yes not denying the Lord searches the heart and ‘I try the reins’ Jeremiah 17:10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. 1 Peter 1:7(proved by fire)as when He comes to give according to what is done in the body? Whether evil or good. Questions is: We all have done evil full of cursing and poison, it is only by His tender mercies (imo) some sins are open (manifest)beforehand going on to judgement and death. yet Alive unto God with Newness of Life. (Proved by fire) (it is by His mercy we are not consumed).

‘According to his ways, according to his doings’. God said His ways are higher than our own, His thoughts are higher than ours...yet walk in His ways and His thoughts for our ways and thoughts lead to death and lead not unto life. ‘even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings’ John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

1 Corinthians 4:4-5 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. [5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Luke 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

John 3:17-21,...For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
he that doeth truth comes to the light ^ John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. [40] And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Unto a light that shines in a dark place ...(imo) is a light that shines in a dark place, that dark place being the heart. (Isaiah 45:3)

Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart (mind, the mind of Christ)also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart (roll away the stone)out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 2 Corinthians 6:16or ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them ; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Yet the above is said to only be to the Jew and a future happening of ‘a new heart also I will give you.’ 1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[farouk]

great verse! Yes not denying the Lord searches the heart and ‘I try the reins’ Jeremiah 17:10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. 1 Peter 1:7 as when He comes to give according to what is done in the body? Whether evil or good. Question is: We all have done evil full of cursing and poison, it is only by His tender mercies (imo) some sins are open (manifest)beforehand going on to judgement and death. yet Alive unto God with Newness of Life. ‘According to his ways, according to his doings’. God said His ways are higher than our own, His thoughts are higher than ours...yet walk in His ways and His thoughts for our ways and thoughts lead to death and lead not unto life. ‘even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings’ John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

1 Corinthians 4:4-5 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. [5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Luke 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

John 3:17-21,...For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
he that doeth truth comes to the light ^ John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. [40] And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Unto a light that shines in a dark place ...(imo) is a light that shines in a dark place, that dark place being the heart. (Isaiah 45:3)

Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart (mind, the mind of Christ)also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart (roll away the stone)out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 2 Corinthians 6:16or ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them ; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Yet the above is said to only be to the Jew and a future happening of ‘a new heart also I will give you.’ 1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

@VictoryinJesus More good verses indeed there...

 

[Naomi25]

no. Read the same verses as you. Only saying maybe we don’t see the bigger picture. For instance in the OT where all that which was unclean was put without the camp (the leper’s being among that which was unclean) and that being where Christ suffered without the gate. At the time that would have been unthinkable, even though it was there hidden until God decided. That was the reason for quoting 1 Timothy 5:24-25 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. [25] Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

^what does the above mean to you? Why some open beforehand going on to judgement; and some men follow after?

Okay...being perfectly honest here, and hope you understand. I...struggle to understand you at times. The way you phrase things. That is not necessarily a reflection upon you. As someone on the spectrum I can, at times, just 'not get' if someone is on a different wavelength. So...if it seems like I'm just 'not getting it' in my conversation with you or how I respond...it's because I'm not. Add that to the fact that I suspect we see the issue in question differently, then, I am unsurprised by our inharmonious take on the question at hand.
Having said that: I think perhaps you are reading into 1 Tim 5:24 a context that is not intended for the text. The context of the passage is Paul's discussion to Timothy the qualifications of an elder...what should or should not disqualify him. The discussion of sin, both hidden or on display, is in that particular context.
Could we, perhaps, apply it to a larger theme as you have? Perhaps. But doing so in a dogmatic way on a fairly hard doctrinal issue is perhaps pushing the text further than it specifically allows. I would say.
In other words....specifically in 1 Tim 5:24 we see Paul telling Timothy that in the everyday lives of Christians, especially in the case of assessing for eldership, some men wear their sins openly...they are easy to see...they are prideful, brash, boastful. Other men keep their sins secret...marital affairs, gambling...but these, like most sins, tend to seep to the surface after a time...they cannot be hidden forever. But, never-the-less, in the case of eldership, ought to be searched for by the Church before electing anyone.
I think in making this passage apply in a 'wider' application, we can say that most people, even outside those seeking an eldership role, suffer from these problems...hidden sins or open sins...and try to learn what the Spirit is teaching us about the nature of our sin problem through that. But making it stretch further and symbolize what you are suggesting is, I'm sorry, perhaps unwarranted.
But, of course this is my opinion and I am not a bible scholar.

speaking to you hopefully as a sister, my thoughts may be silly but still I have them. Right or wrong.

1) God is not willing any perish but is long suffering that all might come to repentance. Not willing...with His will be done. Does He not say (charity) hopes all things, bears all things so doubtfully (again I could be wrong) God will be disappointed in hoping all things and of the mind ‘not willing any perish but all might come to repentance.’ Yet men would spit on it which (imo) is telling in itself...because they did something to earn grace, mercy and forgiveness. It wasn’t a gift. And those who didn’t earn the gift...well God better not! Not until we see them dance and perform they are worthy. That alone, how much the thought is despised makes it worth considering. (Imo).

Yes, grace is grace. But...is God...God? Does God have the divine right to be, in himself, the sort of being to not just declare grace upon a race that attempted cosmic treason against its maker, but also the sort of being to declare his right to not extend grace to some of them? To declare what sin is against him?
See...it's all very well and good to dismiss all the verses that speak of judgment, punishment, wrath etc in favour of grace, mercy, gifts, etc because the former makes you uncomfortable...goodness...it makes all of us uncomfortable. But the moment we start judging ourselves which verses have more weight, more importance in the character and motives of God, we ourselves put limitations and bounds on God, his attributes, his character, motives and actions. WE judge HIM. WE assess HIS motives, and find them wanting if they don't fit with what we perceive as just, right and good. Which is foolish, because we judge with human capacities. God is not human. God is beyond and eternal. And his is the right to do as he wills, with all.
So, our only job remains to read ALL of scripture and reiterate that although we may not fully understand it or feel comfortable with it, it IS good and just. Why? Because it tells us that that IS what God is. And we have the actions of Christ on the cross to bear up the proof of that.

2) most of my life I was pretrib and was perfectly content with some being chosen and others rejected. I was content with hell, for family and friends who reject Him and His message burning in hell...just not me because I said a prayer. It was the word which changed my mind. Not the church building. Not men. The word hearing something so beautiful, so loving, so tender, so patient, so enduring, so forbearing of all my failures and deception and lies and filth and destruction.

Well...forgive me, but...no matter our doctrine, but even 'believing in hell', we should never "be content" with friends and family going there. Scripture constantly calls us to fight FOR the lost, to call them to Christ. To preach the good news. This is not the call or actions of anyone 'content' for those lost to head to hell.

 

[Naomi25]

3) He says to bless those who curse you. Those who hate and despise and use you, bless them. Will God stand by those blessings or are the blessings sown for our sake only?

Again, context is rather key. Because...'blessings' are never represented in scripture as something that gives salvation, are they?
When Jesus was telling his followers to 'bless those who curse you', he was advising them twofold: one, for their own spiritual benefit and growth...no Christian ought to be filled with hate and revenge. And two, for our Christian testimony to the world, to show there is a difference in how we live and treat others.
But again, 'blessing' someone has never, once, led to salvation. Scripture is clear, only faith in Christ does that.

4) do not see how any blind can open their own eyes to see but it is an act of God alone that gives sight. And He the decider of when saying He is willing to suffer (forbear)the vessels of destruction to reveal mercy on vessels prepared for the sake of the Word of mercy.

Again, I'm not sure I'm seeing your thought very well here, sorry. What I DO understand you saying I disagree with. I think you are taking a verse that speaks in direct contradiction to your view and attempting to turn it on it's head to support you.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Romans 9:19–23

While the entire passages makes a fuller argument, this still does nicely. Paul is clearly saying that God deliberately selects some 'vessels' for 'dishonorable use' who are prepared for wrath and destruction.
This is not to get into the whole debate of election, free will, etc. But clearly we see that God, in order for his glory to be known and shown in the 'vessels of mercy', also made 'vessels of wrath'.
Uncomfortable? Absolutely. Unfathomable to us? Completely. Astounding and grateful that he chose us to be vessels of mercy? Irrevocably.

5)Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

^what do you think Paul is speaking of in the above. What makes ‘the sufferings of this present time’ diminish and pale in comparison to what is revealed? birthed and delivered out from tribulation?

As someone who has a chronic illness, I've spent considerable time pondering on Romans 8:18. It's a promise I love.
And I think if you want to understand it, you once again, need to look at context. If you go back to the passage just before it: Rom 8:14-17

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

So, we know that Paul is speaking exclusively to those who are 'sons of God'...those who have the Spirit of God within them. And, if we have the Spirit, we have been adopted into the family, and are heirs with Christ, "provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him".
Paul then goes on to promise that any 'sufferings' of this present age are nothing, compared to the glory that waits for us.
See how you must read it together? And see how it absolutely does not promise this to everyone experiencing trial on earth? It is strictly for those who have the Spirit of God through Christ Jesus.

last one 6) then I’m leaving it alone. You asked then what is the purpose of the crucifix. to condemn the world but that through God it might be saved. Luke 9:55-56 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.[56] For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

True, yes...but men must ACCEPT the sacrifice that Christ made. Do you truly believe that the Muslim extremist, for example, or the Nazi soldier, that enjoyed killing Christians, or just people in general, and hated Jesus and what he stood for...right up until the moment of this persons death...do you honestly think Christ's blood covers him? Do you truly think when he stands before the judgment throne he can say "Christ's blood covers all my sins...even the sin of hating Christ and his sacrifice"?
I'm not sure you can find a single scripture that will support the idea that even those rejecting Jesus will be saved by Jesus. We can, however, find multiple verses that say that salvation comes only THROUGH belief in, faith in, Christ Jesus. Not simply his work, but by believing in his work. There's a difference, you know.

 

[Naomi25]

Guess you never heard of delegated authority!

The bible says Israel has supremacy over the gentile nations and jthe apostles have supremacy over the 12 tribes and Jesus has supremacy over all.

In the kingdom god also said there would be judges, and pastors and governors and priests. When you put them all together it is not hard!

Apparently its hard to support all this with scripture.

Being saved is not the "first resurrection" of revelation 20. though I have eternal life, if I die before teh rapture, my body gets buried and then at teh rapture- my body gets resurrected and transformed ! None of that has anything to do with teh first resurrection of REv. 20.

So you say with a nothing more than a wave of your hand. But, as I showed with many scriptures in #533, scripture does indeed point to 'new birth' for the Christian...you confirmed that yourself. Do you know what this means? It means this: dismissing the 'first resurrection' as spiritual new birth cannot simply be done with a 'wave of the hand'. Because there is enough biblical evidence to warrant the argument for it. Which means IF you want your argument to have any legitimacy, you need to prove, beyond doubt...and that means by providing scriptural evidence, not hand waving opinion, why it CANNOT be the first resurrection.
See how that works?

Well if these were the only passages speaking on the issues- I would agree with you and we would not have this discussion. But the bible speaks of an earthly kingdom, where people have children (heaven doesn't), prosperity, people farming etc.etc. in righteousness, and Jesus ruling with a rod fo iron and judging sin immediately! That does not take place in heaven.

Wait, let me get this straight...you feel because the bible speaks of 'an earthly kingdom' elsewhere, you feel it acceptable to read into this passage things simply not there? Is that correct?
Because, you know that's NOT how exegesis works, right? You can enhance and build a doctrine by using multiple verses to flesh out things. But you most certainly cannot make the 'excuse' of what other verses say to insert meaning or text into certain passages. What a text says is what a text says. It can help build your case or not, but it is what it is.
In this case, Matt 25 CLEARLY says that at the SAME time the sheep and goats are divided off into either eternal life or the lake of fire. Deal with it.

Maybe at jesus return, the goats are thrown into teh lake of fire and not the place of torments, that is a small issue, because bottom line they are lost and will be punished from that point on.

"Maybe"? No. Absolutely. That is what the text says. And if the text says that, it's a bit of an issue with your whole doctrine. Sorry, but it just is. Because we have Jesus: "WHEN the Son of Man comes in his glory...THEN he sits on his glorious throne". It is AT this time when "ALL" the nations are gathered and ushered into either eternity or eternal fire.
That is a serious problem for you.

But see just reading this text and ignoring the rest of SCripture that speak of a future kingdom is foolishness!

Let me ask you these then. When does Jesus give up this kingdom? At his physical return?

I don't ignore the rest of scripture. That's why I land where I do. And scripture is clear when Christ 'gives up' the Kingdom....

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

As I've mentioned before, this passage places the death of death AT the Rapture. But, if we then move to Rev 20, the death of death is placed AFTER the 1000 years. If we follow this logically, and take Paul at his word, then this 'kingdom' that Christ hands over at the defeat of death (Rapture), IS the Millennial kingdom.

When does Satan get loosed if it is not 1,000 years.

Where does he get all the rebels to attack the "beloved city?"

If this is the eternal abode why does God destroy it later?

So your version of the eternal kingdom has satan gathering a rebellion.

That is reading rev. 20 faithfully!

"My version" of Rev 20 is as follows:

And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while......And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, -Revelation 20:2–3,7–9

So many people believe that the binding of Satan means he is bound from doing 'anything'. But, reading it 'faithfully', we see that is simply not what it says. It tells us Satan is bound from doing something very specific. From 'deceiving the nations'. In fact, from "deceiving the nations, to gather them for battle".
What are we to make of that? I submit this: We know that in this 'age' Satan prowls around like a lion, and that also, he knows his time is short. That makes him both angry and dangerous. We already know he has a hatred against God's people, Jew or Christian.
Why then, do you suppose that, given his influence, he has not yet managed a world-wide offensive against both Jerusalem and Christians? At the end of the 'millennium'...or I would say the kingdom of this age, I submit that Satan will be released to do just that. He will be released to deceive the nations from the 'four corners or the earth' to gather them against the saints and the holy city. It will be a time of great persecution against the people of God and should Christ not return and save us, there would not be much hope for us.