John Darby

[VictoryinJesus]

It serves those who see the idiocracy of trying to spiritualize everything written in God's Word. It's for them, since they MUST be in a sarcastic mood to not be able to believe The Bible as written.

Those who think we are presently in Christ's reign on this earth I equate with the greatest of sarcastics.

John 6:63 ...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Only when you(Davy) says ...

 

[Davy]

Hello? Did I not just say that biblical context was "always important"...and therefore implied?

No...no...of course you are QUITE right. His kingdom is both NOT OF this world and ALREADY HERE, among us....in quite a literal way.

I posit that you fail to address these two verses adequately...because in your view, they do contradict. As I previously mentioned, however, scripture does not contradict scripture.

Well, there you go again with a FALSE ACCUSATION.

In my posts I showed how Jesus speaking of casting out demons to the blind Pharisees was as evidence as to His 1st coming and presentation of the kingdom, yet they rejected Him, and thus His kingdom also. It did not come then - LITERALLY. They crucified Him. This is why He said in John 18:36 His kingdom is not of this world. YOU CANNOT USE THE MATTHEW 12:28 SCRIPTURE TO PROVE CHRIST'S KINGDOM came then. Nor can you preach that the devil is now locked in the pit with Christ's victory over him on His cross, lest you forget 1 Peter 5:8!

What you apparently do not understand is the difference between THE OLD WORLD WHEN SATAN FIRST REBELLED, and THIS PRESENT WORLD, and then THE WORLD TO COME. There are THREE WORLD AGES written of in God's Word (2 Peter 3). Back in the first one was when Satan originally was 'perfect in his ways', serving God at His throne, and covering the Mercy Seat. Satan coveted God's throne, and that is WHY God literally ended... that old world (that was long before Adam and Eve). God brought this present world of flesh and blood, removing man's knowledge of that first world age, and including all born under sin so that His Salvation would be to those who believe on His Son Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus was born in the flesh specifically to defeat the devil for us. And when it's time, this 2nd world age is to be destroyed and no more. The new heavens and a new earth is the 3rd world age, and will never involve man again in a fleshy existence. The time of flesh of blood is today's world, not in the world to come.

This present world is NOT the time for Christ's Kingdom to manifest on earth. It will NEVER happen during this present world. It's like what Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption! This present world is one of CORRUPTION, and is to be destroyed! If you are not... looking for the world to come, then you are not truly in the Spirit of Christ, but instead are trusting in flesh and blood.

 

[Davy]

Wadr your claim (seems to me unless I’ve misunderstood) is there is no: walk in a new order. For the old order passes away. 1 Timothy 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

What order is His Kingdom of? How can you say His order of things has not come when He says to walk in the Light of His kingdom, and to let His kingdom reign?

What is the old order of things that He says to come out from?

As I said before, as God's Word declares, JESUS SAID HIS KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD (John 18:36).

So your "new order" is not what you really mean is it? What you actually mean to say, per your Amillennialist belief (you're trying to hide), is about faith on a NEW WORLD ORDER!

No, Lord Jesus is NOT part of man's NEW WORLD ORDER they are trying to establish on earth today! That is Satan's system they are trying to establish on earth today! How is it you are not aware of the Revelation 13 beast kingdom for the end, that's to have ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns? Daniel 2 reveals that false kingdom is what is to manifest at the very end of this present world just prior to Christ's return. How could you miss that clear Revelation?

Oh, I forgot, the charlatans you listen to that wrongly preach that Christ's Kingdom is already... here on earth, literally, believe in that NEW WORLD ORDER that Satan's host are busy setting up for the end! They call it by another name too though, a "one world government!"

one world government quotes - Google Search

 

[Davy]

John 6:63 ...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Only when you(Davy) says ...

You don't realize the danger you're in by not understanding Christ's Kingdom is NOT of this present world. You obviously don't understand the following either...

Luke 17:20-21
20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, 'Lo here! or, lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
KJV

THAT... is where His kingdom is today, INSIDE His servants that have believed on Him. You keep preaching about the Spirit of His kingdom having manifested, yet you then slide that into a fleshy kingdom here with this present world out of the other side of your mouth! You simply are deluded, and don't know what you're talking about.

When Lord Jesus does return to this earth in the near future, LITERALLY, that... is when His LITERAL PHYSICAL KINGDOM will be setup here on earth, for all, and over all, including over all nations and over all the wicked! That... is when He will reign upon David's throne He inherited, on this earth. That is for the WORLD TO COME, not this present one!

 

[farouk]

John 6:63 ...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

@VictoryinJesus Such a lot in John 6, isn't there!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As I said before, as God's Word declares, JESUS SAID HIS KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD (John 18:36).

Never meant to imply it is.

So your "new order" is not what you really mean is it? What you actually mean to say, per your Amillennialist belief (you're trying to hide), is about faith on a NEW WORLD ORDER!

Admittedly I do not understand this ‘New one world order’ as how can it be new when there is nothing new under the sun? So really, it is an old order which is said to be new and by another name when, it is still: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings,

No, Lord Jesus is NOT part of man's NEW WORLD ORDER they are trying to establish on earth today! That is Satan's system they are trying to establish on earth today! How is it you are not aware of the Revelation 13 beast kingdom for the end, that's to have ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns? Daniel 2 reveals that false kingdom is what is to manifest at the very end of this present world just prior to Christ's return. How could you miss that clear Revelation?

again, do not understand this claim of setting up a one world new order that has not already been, when there is nothing new under the sun. You quote the beast and how he will cause those of the world to worship the beast ...nothing new (imo) until John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[farouk]

Never meant to imply it is.


Admittedly I do not understand this ‘New one world order’ as how can it be new when there is nothing new under the sun? So really, it is an old order which is said to be new and by another name when, it is still: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings,




again, do not understand this claim of setting up a one world new order that has not already been, when there is nothing new under the sun. You quote the beast and how he will cause those of the world to worship the beast ...nothing new (imo) until John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

@VictoryinJesus Great verse there about true worship from John 4...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You don't realize the danger you're in by not understanding Christ's Kingdom is NOT of this present world. You obviously don't understand the following either...

Luke 17:20-21
20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, 'Lo here! or, lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
KJV

THAT... is where His kingdom is today, INSIDE His servants that have believed on Him. You keep preaching about the Spirit of His kingdom having manifested, yet you then slide that into a fleshy kingdom here with this present world out of the other side of your mouth! You simply are deluded, and don't know what you're talking about.

When Lord Jesus does return to this earth in the near future, LITERALLY, that... is when His LITERAL PHYSICAL KINGDOM will be setup here on earth, for all, and over all, including over all nations and over all the wicked! That... is when He will reign upon David's throne He inherited, on this earth. That is for the WORLD TO COME, not this present one!

‘You don't realize the danger you're in by not understanding Christ's Kingdom is NOT of this present world.’ Only because either I’m not being clear in what I’m trying to say, or you are twisting it to assume things about me that you can not possibly know.
Only mean the old order, old conversation: not suggesting the kingdom of God is Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these ; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

instead suggesting the Kingdom of God is 5:22-24 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 3:27-28 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Davy]

Never meant to imply it is.


Admittedly I do not understand this ‘New one world order’ as how can it be new when there is nothing new under the sun? So really, it is an old order which is said to be new and by another name when, it is still: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings,

again, do not understand this claim of setting up a one world new order that has not already been, when there is nothing new under the sun. You quote the beast and how he will cause those of the world to worship the beast ...nothing new (imo) until John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Not understanding about the 'New World Order' movement is one of the main dangers for today at the end of this world. But you're definitely not alone in not understanding it.

It's easy to say Satan is behind it. He is, but we are to recognize more than that, otherwise all the warnings about the end that Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave His Church for the end would be useless. That's what the devil wants God's people to think, that we don't really need to heed all those warnings about the signs of the end per God's Word.

1. In the old world, the one before Adam and Eve, before Satan rebelled, the devil setup a beast kingdom having ten horns, seven heads and seven crowns. That is declared in Revelation 12:3-4 with the time when he as the "red dragon" drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth with him in rebellion. One must... recognize the timing of when Satan drew those third of the stars when he originally fell. There's more info about in the Old Testament prophets (which many of my Christian brethren fail to study).

2. Rev.13 declares another later beast kingdom, which is for the end of this world, having ten horns, seven heads, but ten crowns instead of seven. That is for the coming tribulation. It is the final beast kingdom of the Book of Daniel, as there are direct parallels in Revelation to Daniel about it.

3. Lord Jesus warned about the "abomination of desolation" event within His Olivet discourse (Matt.24; Mark 13), which is about the main Signs of the end of this world leading up to His 2nd coming to gather His Church, and those Signs parallel the events of the Seals in Revelation 6.

Just those 3 categories of Bible topics is enough to eventually get a grasp of what events are to occur leading up to Jesus' return. If you're not aware of them, then you might ask yourself what you have been listening to instead.

 

[Davy]

‘You don't realize the danger you're in by not understanding Christ's Kingdom is NOT of this present world.’ Only because either I’m not being clear in what I’m trying to say, or you are twisting it to assume things about me that you can not possibly know.
....

It's not difficult to know where you're coming from by what you have posted. So I wouldn't try to pump yourself up as if you're something you are not.

Lord Jesus and His Apostle gave us, His Church, warnings about the end of this world, and that has nothing to do with playing religion like you're doing with BYPASSING all those warning Scriptures to declare only the verses you like.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It's not difficult to know where you're coming from by what you have posted. So I wouldn't try to pump yourself up as if you're something you are not.

You don’t have to worry about that. There is always that voice present reminding I wouldn't try to pump yourself up as if you're something you are not. Our granddaughter is nine. She asked me the other day “why do we worry so much.” She has noticed her worry over little things like drinking out of the wrong cup (accidentally)and getting someone else’s germs. We talked about her little sister who will be three next month and how she doesn’t worry about anything. We talked about how she used to be like her little sister until all the worry got planted to tell her she should worry.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That is Satan's system they are trying to establish on earth today! How is it you are not aware of the Revelation 13 beast kingdom for the end, that's to have ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns? Daniel 2 reveals that false kingdom is what is to manifest at the very end of this present world just prior to Christ's return. How could you miss that clear Revelation?

John 19:10-12 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? [11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. [12] And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
^ could be wrong, only giving a perspective but the Jews were heaven, those planted of the Lord yet also those plucked up as being full of sap.(behold, I create a New Heaven and Earth). He told them, had they known the Power of peace they had to give but from then on Peace would be hidden from them. They were stars set to shine but as those untimely figs when blown upon by a mighty wind, those stars of heaven fall in Revelation. heaven black with its lights put out (Jeremiah 4:28-31) And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. [31] For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

how fast The Jews gave their voice, their power to the beast in seeking to kill him. John 19:10-12 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? [11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. [12] And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
^ Do you think it is God who has the greater sin in ‘you could have no power at all against me, except it were given you from above’? instead of Matthew 23:1-14 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, [2] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: [3] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. [4] For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. [5] But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, [6] And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, [7] And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. [8] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. [9] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. [10] Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. [11] But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. [12] And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. [13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. [14] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
^Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Revelation 17:12-14 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. (Luke 22:52-53) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. [14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 17:16-18 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. [17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. [18] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

 

[CharismaticLady]

This is what the enemies of Darby and the Pre-tribulation Rapture would say.

However, Darby was simply presenting what was in Scripture since 30 AD, and for whatever reason he had missed it early on in his ministry.

"Darby came to understand that the church could be taken to heaven at any moment without signs preceding that event, in what would later be known as the pretribulational rapture of the church. Darby’s realization of a change in dispensations laid the groundwork for the development of dispensationalism, since he saw a distinction between God’s plan for the church and His plan for Israel. By this time, Darby also developed a pessimistic view of the visible church, Christendom, and came to believe that it was in utter ruins..."
https://www.pre-trib.org/pretribfiles/pdfs/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandtheRapture.pdf

The strange thing is that any Christian who reads John 14:1-3 would see this truth immediately. So Darby too should have seen it right away, but he did not.

Those who oppose the Pre-tribulation Rapture resort all kinds of ad hominem attacks as well as propaganda. Christians should ignore all that and focus on the Bible itself, and the words of Christ and the apostles. In fact, the words of Christ Himself should suffice.

There are many pages and posts on here. Did anyone come up with an actual exhaustive scriptural list of references for this theory that I've never been able to see, so wonder how in the world anyone believes the Bible gives proof of this seemingly wishful thinking? If so who, and I'll see if I can find the specific post. This I've gotta see. Who wouldn't love to miss the GT? But I just don't see how. It is tribulation, not wrath. And the GT may be here in 18 months if the Rev. 8 asteroid is the one coming on April 13, 2029 according to NASA. That's not date setting, it is just following the clues given in scripture. Besides not knowing the day nor the hour doesn't mean we won't know the season. Jesus said when YOU SEE these things come to pass, LOOK UP!

 

[Naomi25]

Oh but it is there!

It is? Okay then, show me where Jesus, or any Disciple, says that the Kingdom has been taken away from Israel and will be offered back to it at a later generation. Also, please show the verses that tell us that this kingdom, because it has been withdrawn from Israel...to be offered at a later date, could not or cannot, therefore, be offered then or now, to the Gentiles, and that therefore the kingdom being offered to the Gentiles throughout the NT must be a different kingdom.
Thank you.

And you forget jesus said when He returns and sits on the throne of His glory- He ushers people into His kingdom-which is here on earth!

No, I have not forgotten, and that is not a problem for me. If you will remember, my claim is that the kingdom that Christ rules and reigns over, is through Christ himself, through his work and power. That is why he was able to say that the kingdom was 'in their midst'...he was standing among them, proclaiming freedom from sins and performing signs that spoke of that very thing and the kingdom truth of it. He was also able to say that the kingdom 'was not of this world' because he was not of this world, and he would soon be leaving it and send the Holy Spirit in his place to continue his good work of the kingdom and gospel...why he could also claim the kingdom was coming in a 'way they could not observe it'.

Think this through for a moment...if the kingdom was going to be a future, physical, theocratic...and by that I mean national...kingdom....how could he have made any of those claims? 'Among them or in their midst'? No...not for millennia. 'Not of this world'? No...it would be of this world, just millennia away. 'In a way they could not observe?' Well, when it came people would be able to observe it quite well...there would be a temple/palace, throne, king.....you see where I'm going.

Now, I do believe the kingdom has a physical component, but in an 'already/not yet' way. At the moment Christ's kingdom is seen manifest through the lives and works of his people here on earth. But after the consummation, when he has made all things new, he will indeed sit on his throne and rule us in a physical way. But it won't be a king ruling a tiny parcel of land and people being made to come bow before him whether they want to or not. In the new earth Christ will be king of the cosmos and every tongue and heart will rejoice.

So you "correct me for having a kingdom, but yet you have a time that straddles time and eternity??

The end of verse 20 shows that teh universe is removed! So space, matter are gone and one cannot have time without space matter.

I "correct you for having a kingdom"....(insert squinty face of confusion). Do you mean I disagree that the 1000 years spoken of in Rev 20 is a future literal physical 'kingdom'? Because sure, I cop to that, otherwise I'm not sure where else you could get that...there is clearly a kingdom somewhere, the big question is where and what. Would you agree?

As far as 'straddles', I'm sorry if you don't like the term. But regardless of what you may wish to call it, I'm not sure that ought to call into question what is happening here. Let's have a refresh by skipping through Rev 20:

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, -Rev 20:1–2
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. -Rev 20:4
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. -Rev 20:7–8
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. -Rev 20:11–12
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Rev 20:14–15

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. -Rev 21:1

Ok....so, putting aside for the moment, WHEN the thousand years spoken of might occur, the judging event at the END of Rev 20 comes after this 'millennium', right? So, before 'I saw a new heaven and a new earth'. Which I believe we can safely call the 'beginning of eternity'.
Now, I could spend a good deal of time, but I quite frankly can't be bothered, showing how 'the last day' or the 'end of this age' all lead to the moment of said 'judgment'.
The reason I say 'straddle' is because we cannot really know how long this judgment will take. We know God is all powerful and could judge all within a blink of an eye. But there is nothing suggesting he will or won't. It could take a week, it could take a year. What we have, biblically, are texts pointing to the end of this age, to a 'day' that leads to Christ's return in judgment. And when the judgment is complete, he ushers in the new heavens and new earth.

Now, if you really want to get nit-picky over that, sure, go ahead, but i'm quite comfortable where I am and not going to go beyond what and where scripture clearly draws the lines.

 

[Naomi25]

In the mass of the OT verses I gave you ! god says" it shall come to pass" without any conditions. so if it doesn't come to pass, God lies! But yes I agree in your very carefully selected verses it does not mention the kingdom for Israel. It appears many places elsewhere however!
And this verse also does not declare that teh taking away is a permanent unrevokable thing either

Yes right now the gentiles are being called out of the nations to be a people for Jesus!

BUT:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Not just some Jews---but ALL ISrael will be saved after the fulness of the Gentiles come in ! That is the New Covenant God made with the Nation of Israel! Nowhere has that covenant to the whole nation been revoked!

also:

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

the "they" is the nation of Israel.

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Except, my point is...you can't say that the OT says the kingdom will go to Israel, then come to the NT and have Jesus tell Israel that the kingdom is being taken from them because they are wicked and undeserving. Are you also saying that Jesus is lying? Is God lying? What is the problem?
The tension, as I said, is that the bible is progressive revelation. Which means that things are revealed in the NT in a way to shed light on the OT in ways they might not have considered. Like the fact that there Messiah was not going to come in guns blazing and take out the Romans. He came not to deal with human enemies, but with the spiritual one; sin. The clues to that were there in the OT, but no one GOT it, not even the famed Nicodemus!
My point is this: when we are told that all promises are fulfilled in Jesus...when all that WAS promised to Abraham was, in fact, promised to Christ, and to those 'in him'...we learn that we must look back at all these 'shall come to passes' in the light of Christ....not in the light of 'Israel'. Are those promises coming to pass in Jesus Christ? Will everyone who places their faith IN HIM be able to now, or in the future, be able to look back at all those promises (whether Jew or Gentile) and say 'yes and amen!'? Because THAT is what the NT teaches us. If we only look back at the OT and read it exactly like the Israelites did, then we end up in the same sort of error they did at Christ's first coming....focusing on the wrong things entirely.

Right now we are living in what many theologians and scholars call the "mystery form of the kingdom" which is spelled out by Paul in ephesians and Romans! Jew and Gentile become one body of Christ! The time for that body to be collected will come to an end ans shown by the many passages I gave you!

When Je

I find this...interesting. You see...Paul does speak often of mysteries, but often of the mystery that has now been revealed since the coming of Christ. Especially in regards to the union of Jew and Gentile under the new covenant in Christ's blood. To me, that does not suggest we have leave to look back to the OT time where those peoples are separate and expect to therefore look forward to a time where we become separate again. That is not the 'mystery' Paul is explaining...that is the opposite of it.

 

[farouk]

Our granddaughter is nine. She asked me the other day “why do we worry so much.” She has noticed her worry over little things like drinking out of the wrong cup (accidentally)and getting someone else’s germs. We talked about her little sister who will be three next month and how she doesn’t worry about anything. We talked about how she used to be like her little sister until all the worry got planted to tell her she should worry.

@VictoryinJesus A touching story about the 9 year old granddaughter!

I guess the subject is part of the bigger theme of acquiring wisdom in life; sometimes we learn sobering things which do us good nevertheless.

Best of all is sanctified wisdom; I do love Robert Bridges' words:

"Jesu, joy of man's desiring,
Holy wisdom, love most bright.
Drawn by Thee, our souls aspiring
Soar to uncreated light."

May your grandchildren and we all be led in such wisdom, for the glory of God!

 

[Naomi25]

Well I am trying to follow your very twisted lines of reasoning!

As I was yours...however...perhaps at this junction we should allow that rather than being 'twisted' we are just plain misunderstanding one another.

I do not believe the abyssing of Satan occurs in eternity. Nor do I believe that teh releasing of satan occurs in eterntiy.

Neither do I...by 'eternity' I believe Satan is solidly in the lake of fire.

THE XXXX I posted is because you declare the 1,000 years is merely symbolic! You believe Satan is abyssed now and used faulty exegesis to try to defend it! By adding a passage from a verse further on that does not belong!

You may well disagree with my views on the 1000 years, but they in no way lead me to believe that Satan has any sort of role in eternity.
And I'm not sure what verse your referring to, but any verse that appears within Rev 20 itself or speaks about the judgment or the death of death would, I argue, be relevant to the topic at hand. To suggest otherwise would be to argue for the dismissal of pertinent information based only on whether one liked what they had to say on the topic or not.

I believe Satan is abyssed after his defeat when Jesus fights Him from Petra back to Jerusalem and defeats him. Then there is a time frame for events to happen after Jesus return and before the start of His kingdom. His kingdom will last 1,000 years and after that 1000 years Satan is loosed and once again like He did right before the Lords return gathers forces to fight the saints and Jesus one last time!

And you are free to do so.

YOU call this time frame we are living in that symbolic 1000 years by your declarations. So when the first resurrections ends after the symbolic 1000 years- what happens?

No, not "by my declarations". Which makes it sound like I'm speaking as God's mouthpiece. I have arrived here through process of elimination. Believe it or not, I started out very much like where you are now, except I was bothered by what I 'couldnt' see of Dispensational teaching within scripture. Don't get me wrong, I wanted to believe it...so I set out to prove it correct to myself...I started researching all the different eschatological beliefs. And yes, I initially scoffed at Amillennial as one of the ones least likely to be valid. Which ended up biting me on my butt. Because systematically I was left with nowhere to go but there. Passage after passage pointed me to a single return of Christ which bought judgment, resurrection, renewal of all things and eternity.
Again, you are most free to disagree, but I prefer that you not say that I am 'declaring' that my view must be so. I think I can make a good argument for it. I think I can make a biblical case for it. But eschatology is not a hill I will die on. It's a hill I'm very much interested in and enjoy debating on...but I'm always most careful to keep apprised of other views and what is happening in the world. Jesus told us to stay awake, and I think part of that is staying awake to any potential error we might make in our own interpretation as well as others.

When do you think the "battle of armegeddon" takes place?

Ha. Well...this is another one of those answers that could be essay length and I know very well you will disagree with on a fundamental level.
The 'short' version is: Amillennialists tend to see Revelation as a series of recapitulating visions, especially when we are looking at the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments. One of the reasons for this is that we see in the 6/7th judgment either a theophany or the massive event that leads to the theophany. Which we would say is Christ's return.
So when we see in Rev 16:16 that all these nations are ready, gathered together against God and his people, we then see the 7th bowl released and Christ returns in a glorious theophany....thunder, lightning, earthquake and hailstones.
Again, we would say that this vision is repeated in Chapter 19, when the sky is visibly ripped open to reveal Christ in glorious splendor.
When we reach Rev 20 we take a step back. Like Rev 12, where the view of the author spans millennia itself (seeing the birth of the Messiah to the end of this age), Rev 20, we argue, does the same. Is see's Satan being restrained by Christ's ministry...restrained from something very specific...which we are told more about in Rev 20:7-9....when he is released, he goes forth to 'deceive the nations to gather them to battle against the saints and against the holy city'.
So....here's the 'idea'. We know Satan is currently still 'active'. But we also know, if we are being faithful in our reading of Rev 20 that he is not bound against all activity. He is bound against deceiving the nations...specifically...against gathering them together to crush God's people. And that is, actually, important. Because let's consider for a moment. IF Satan has all power and control during this present time, and...knowing how much he hates the people of God...ALL the peoples of God...why don't you think he'd have managed to 'get it together' enough to coordinate the powers of the world to wipe Christianity from the face of the planet. He'd surely want to. He'd surely have the power to. People embracing evil would surely want to help him. And yet...Christianity is still the biggest religion on the planet. Maybe only just, but still...that's amazing. And an amazing slap in the 'prince of this world's' face, wouldn't you say. It's almost like he has been denied the right for that last, big, push.
But you can bet he's lined it all up. All it's going to take is for that restriction, that mandate to be lifted, and those dominoes will fall. Christianity will undergo the biggest, world-wide persecution it has ever faced as Satan coordinates a world-wide offensive against God's people...both Jewish and of the Church. And that...will be Armeggedon.

See I see the end of teh thousand years happening right before time ends and eternity begins when God comes down on the Great White Throne!

Again, you are free to. I just don't see the preponderance of scripture weighing in that direction.

 

[Naomi25]

Well, there you go again with a FALSE ACCUSATION.

In my posts I showed how Jesus speaking of casting out demons to the blind Pharisees was as evidence as to His 1st coming and presentation of the kingdom, yet they rejected Him, and thus His kingdom also. It did not come then - LITERALLY. They crucified Him. This is why He said in John 18:36 His kingdom is not of this world. YOU CANNOT USE THE MATTHEW 12:28 SCRIPTURE TO PROVE CHRIST'S KINGDOM came then. Nor can you preach that the devil is now locked in the pit with Christ's victory over him on His cross, lest you forget 1 Peter 5:8!

What you apparently do not understand is the difference between THE OLD WORLD WHEN SATAN FIRST REBELLED, and THIS PRESENT WORLD, and then THE WORLD TO COME. There are THREE WORLD AGES written of in God's Word (2 Peter 3). Back in the first one was when Satan originally was 'perfect in his ways', serving God at His throne, and covering the Mercy Seat. Satan coveted God's throne, and that is WHY God literally ended... that old world (that was long before Adam and Eve). God brought this present world of flesh and blood, removing man's knowledge of that first world age, and including all born under sin so that His Salvation would be to those who believe on His Son Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus was born in the flesh specifically to defeat the devil for us. And when it's time, this 2nd world age is to be destroyed and no more. The new heavens and a new earth is the 3rd world age, and will never involve man again in a fleshy existence. The time of flesh of blood is today's world, not in the world to come.

This present world is NOT the time for Christ's Kingdom to manifest on earth. It will NEVER happen during this present world. It's like what Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption! This present world is one of CORRUPTION, and is to be destroyed! If you are not... looking for the world to come, then you are not truly in the Spirit of Christ, but instead are trusting in flesh and blood.

In truth, I am finding that I simply have better things to do today that attempt to follow the contortions of your mind.
Please...feel free to continue believing as you do, you do, of course, have the right to think and believe as you wish.
But sir, your logic fails to sway.

 

[Davy]

In truth, I am finding that I simply have better things to do today that attempt to follow the contortions of your mind.
Please...feel free to continue believing as you do, you do, of course, have the right to think and believe as you wish.
But sir, your logic fails to sway.

What I said certainly are not contortions of my mind. They are from the direct revelation of Scripture in God's Word. Only those who heed men's doctrines instead refuse to grasp those things as written in God's Word.

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
KJV

Those of men's doctrines who try to say His kingdom is already established on earth today are the deceived who will be part of the coming Antichrist's false kingdom in our near future. Some of them (Full Preterists) even believe that today is all there will be, that Jesus isn't returning literally, so they believe it's up to them to try and establish His kingdom for Him today. That will NEVER happen, simply because this present world is not the time when Lord Jesus will restore the kingdom of Israel, which is His rightful Kingdom, sitting upon David's throne!

But O yeah, I forgot. The men you listen to don't regard Christ's inheritance of David's throne, because they falsely teach that Jesus is sitting on it now, in Heaven, when He is not. Jesus at present is sitting at the right hand of The Father's throne. David's throne is an EARTHLY throne and will involve the LITERAL restoration of the old kingdom of Israel, with His Apostles sitting upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel, as written.

So you can make excuses that this is not God's Word, and believe men's doctrinal delusions all you want instead, it's they that are creating the actual contortions in your own mind.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@VictoryinJesus A touching story about the 9 year old granddaughter!

I guess the subject is part of the bigger theme of acquiring wisdom in life; sometimes we learn sobering things which do us good nevertheless.

Best of all is sanctified wisdom; I do love Robert Bridges' words:

"Jesu, joy of man's desiring,
Holy wisdom, love most bright.
Drawn by Thee, our souls aspiring
Soar to uncreated light."

May your grandchildren and we all be led in such wisdom, for the glory of God!

‘May your grandchildren and we all be led in such wisdom, for the glory of God!’ Thank you . Yes that they may be led by Him. Almost all have lost fathers either through addictions or death. I can relate to never having a father present or one that stayed. Your post caused me to realize something last night. I long for a father and daughter relationship and even though I see Him as a Father ...up until last night I felt like one thing is always lacking with Him. Being able to sit with a father face to face and have a conversation with him about life, struggles, WORRIES and to have a father who listens and hears and gives good fatherly advice and direction. To embrace a father and he embraces you back with comfort and strength. Makes me cry when reading your post last night and remembering how many times God speaks as a Father to His children and how He is that Father who listens and gives Fatherly direction like no other. So yes agree it is what I desire also ‘May your grandchildren and we all be led in such wisdom, for the glory of God!’