John Darby

[Ronald Nolette]

First...I believe I addressed the tension between the OT/NT promises later on in my previous post, so I'm not sure I need to go over that again. Secondly, why on earth would any NT fulfillment in Christ of these promises mean that God lied? Do you see any of the OT promises that the Messiah will free his people from their enemies as lies, when Jesus actually came to free people from the enemy of Satan and sin? Of course not.

So how is Jesus teh fulfilment of the physical kingdom God promised to Israel?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We already know, from Romans 9-11 that when the times of the Gentiles comes to a close, we can expect God to draw great numbers of Jews to Christ...grafting them back onto the olive tree...the root that is Christ.
The problem for you is that this in no way precludes the notion that the kingdom was still present back then, being offered to the Gentiles who were grafted onto that olive tree in belief. Present then, and present now. Every person who becomes a believer and is grafted onto the tree becomes a partaker in the kingdom.
And, when the Jewish people are drawn back and en-mass declare Christ to be their Messiah, they too will be partakers in this kingdom.
Again....this does not mean the kingdom was offered...withdrawn...and will only be offered again to Jews at a future time.

You forget that we are grafted into the place of Gods blessings for Israel the nation! so we are experiencing the spiritual blessings, not the physical kingdom aspect.

As we both love to quote Romans 11:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

why would the Apostles need to reiterate the promises of the kingdom to Israel when they were called to go into teh world and call gentiles and teh remnant in the church age?

These promises are not relevant to the church, but to the nation of Israel as I showed you from all the SCriptures I posted to you.

But let me ask you a question. do you believe that when god said ( without preconditions) things like "it shall come to pass", "the Lord has declared" , " I will cause"- that those things will happen as god said?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes it was a proclamation to Israel, but once more, you do not factor in the parables Jesus told TO the Jews of how the kingdom would be taken away from them and given to another people. That would be the Gentiles. And the rest of the NT gives us plenty of proof that it was. You cannot ignore how often the kingdom is spoken of in the rest of the NT. If the kingdom was simply taken away from the Jews, and not seen again until some future time until they recognized Jesus as their Messiah, how do you explain Jesus' parables and all these references?

I twas taken away form that generation! If God meant all Jews for all time He would have said so! But Jesus said "unto you". And in many other places He always referred it to that generation!

The parables were not given to show the Jews how the kingdom was to be taken, but to keep them from knowing the truth!

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

YOu also forget that Jesus has not been made King yet! He is still in His role as HIgh priest!

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jesus was prophet until either the end of the last supper or sometime during His passion.

Then he switched and became High priest to make sacrifice for sin and to begin atonement or sin.

When He physically returns to earth at the end of the 70th week of Danil, He then takes on His role as King of Kings for approx. 1,000 years.

Then when He vanquishes the last enemy:

1 Corinthians 15:23-28
King James Version

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Now you have alluded that Jesus reigns in eternity but the bible says no.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hmmm...yes..."clear". I suppose that does depend on where you're sitting. From my position your getting your view from an erroneous focus on OT promises when the NT 'clearly' calls us to read it otherwise, and from Revelation, a notoriously apocalyptic book so choc-a-block full of imagery it puts Daniel an Ezekiel to shame.
Like I keep saying...we're just on different wave lengths.

Yes we are and this may be a good place where we must agree to disagree before it becomes disagreeable.

I can never reinterpret again the promises God made in the Old concerning the nation of Israel and the future of them a s a nation and say that God has made those promises null and void and somehow transferred them over to the church and Jesus! It makes God an Indian giver when He said He would do something--PERIOD! I went fro a reformed, covenantal allegorical theology to a dispensational literal theology because as I have said often- the literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding SCripture and a dispensational theology does far less harm to the whole of Scripture as written than teh covenant view with it s replacement theology.

So I bid you a fond adieu and hope to see you on another thread! If you wish me to answer the rest of the quotes you posted- please say so and I will gladly answer them.

 

[Enoch111]

How can one be ‘in the world’ but not ‘of the world’?

That is exactly what Christians are expected to be -- in the world but not of the world. So what exactly does it mean? The fact that Christians are human being living on this planet means that they are in the world. However, the fact that they reject all the religions, philosophies, ideas, customs, and trends of the world in order to be consistent Christians means that they are not "of" this world.

As a glaring example, politicians of the world believe that they can lie blatantly all the time and still get away with it, and even be re-elected. Christians reject this philosophy altogether.

As to the misuse of the words of Christ regarding His Kingdom (prior to His crucifixion) we simply need to understand that at His first coming Christ did not come to earth to establish His physical and visible Kingdom. He came as the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world.

However, since that has been already accomplished, He will indeed come to establish His universal Kingdom on earth after His Second Coming. It will be literal, physical, visible, tangible, material and spiritual.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So, wait. I know that you are interpreting scripture in a sound, virtuous manner, while at the same time arguing for a completely different interpretation.
That either makes me stupid, duplicitous or just very, very confused.
I'll take the 4th option which is...I think we are both doing our best to represent how we see scripture, but wholly disagree with how the other sees it and their basic interpretative grid.
Which doesn't make either of us the problematic things above, but does make for difficult conversations.



While I agree with you on the OSAS issue, I'm not exactly sure how it has any bearing on our conversation at large.
I think its a given that we are understanding scripture on a fundamentally different level. And, it's a fairly considerable issue. When I see the the NT as guiding us to read the OT through 'Christ-centric' lenses and you insist on bringing the OT firmly into the NT and making it land there regardless, I'm not sure we can find much common ground there. I think ultimately, and maybe even soon, we must give up...there is only so many times we can go around this merry-go-round before we must confess we'll never see eye to eye and not likely convince each other that our hermeneutical basis is incorrect.

Well after 46 years and studying the various hermeneutics and the major theological approaches to Scriptures I have come to teh firm conclusion dispensationalism (not necessarily individual dispensationalists) does far less harm to teh Scriptures as written. It take into account symbolsim in teh grammar, allegories and prophetic language!

I do not think it makes you any of those! I find you a sincere and wonderful fellow believer (and we disagree here). I just think you have accepted a theolgical view that does more harm to teh Scriptures than others because it requires allegorizing passages to make them redefined!

Well those who hold that you can lose your salvation pull verses out of context or out of their immediate meanings and force them into another doctrine. If teh verses they love to quote stood as the only verses on soteriology- I would agree with them. But they contradict so many other passages, they are forces to place what are falsely called "im[lied caveats" to teh verses that do say we are saved forever. Example. Hebrews declares that God has perfeceted forever , those being made holy. they place a but there where there is no but or even an implied one. But because they come from the viewpoint that man has to maintain their salvation- they have to put conditions on the verses that show we are not saved or kept or maintain our salvations by avoiding sins or doing good works!

This is true as well with a "REformed Escatology"- It has forever killed the notion that God will save the entire nation of Israel and fulfill the promise of th ekingdom He made! IOW they negate approx. 15% of the OT.

YOu said I spent much time in the ot on this subject! Yes I do! For it is a promise to the covenanted nation of Israel and not the church .

Teh Abrahamic., Davidic, Palestinian and New covenant have not been revoked from teh nation as a nation because of their rejection of Jesus as Messiah 2k years ago! The OT says that ! And then Pau lin romans reminds us that teh gifts and calling of God are without repentance and the context demand sHe is referring to Israel!

Rom. 11:

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Zech. 13:

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.


29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Ez. 20:

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.


29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[Naomi25]

So how is Jesus teh fulfilment of the physical kingdom God promised to Israel?

I'll try to put it as succinctly and biblically as I can:

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God....
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. -Hebrews 11:8-10,13–16

The author of Hebrews is making an astounding claim here. He says that although Abraham actually did dwell for some time in the 'promised' land, he died not having received the things promised. And yet, he, as did his faithful descendants, remained steadfast in their faith of this promised 'inheritance'. NOT because it was a piece of dirt, but because they recognized that it was, in fact, a 'better country', a heavenly city and that they, during their earthly lives, were exiles upon the earth.
This means, specifically, that every time the NT talks about the 'inheritance' or 'heirs to the promise' we receive in Christ, it is talking about this inheritance and promise:

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. -Ephesians 3:6

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. -Ephesians 1:13–14

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. -Hebrews 9:15

We can then go to Revelation to get a bit of a sneak-peak of this 'heavenly city' that Christ has been preparing for us. Of course, said inheritance will stretch beyond just a city, even one as vast as the New Jerusalem. But the NJ is a symbol of man and God dwelling together, just as Eden was in Genesis.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. -Revelation 21:1–3

And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. -Revelation 21:22–27

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. -Revelation 22:1–5

A place where God and the Lamb rules with glory and honor over all, having the 'nations' walk and worship by their light, their 'gates' always open for us to enter (access). Where the water and tree of life are freely accessible and no sin, death or sadness persist.
Indeed....I would say this is the promised land and that which we all long for...wouldn't you?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That is exactly what Christians are expected to be -- in the world but not of the world

then could not also the same be said: His kingdom is in the world but not of the world. (Otherwise why go purchase the field the treasure is hidden within?)As He told them John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

 

[farouk]

then could not also the same be said: His kingdom is in the world but not of the world. (Otherwise why go purchase the field the treasure is hidden within?)As He told them John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

@VictoryinJesus Always good principles for the believer to remember, indeed.

 

[farouk]

I'll try to put it as succinctly and biblically as I can:

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God....
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. -Hebrews 11:8-10,13–16

The author of Hebrews is making an astounding claim here. He says that although Abraham actually did dwell for some time in the 'promised' land, he died not having received the things promised. And yet, he, as did his faithful descendants, remained steadfast in their faith of this promised 'inheritance'. NOT because it was a piece of dirt, but because they recognized that it was, in fact, a 'better country', a heavenly city and that they, during their earthly lives, were exiles upon the earth.
This means, specifically, that every time the NT talks about the 'inheritance' or 'heirs to the promise' we receive in Christ, it is talking about this inheritance and promise:

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. -Ephesians 3:6

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. -Ephesians 1:13–14

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. -Hebrews 9:15

We can then go to Revelation to get a bit of a sneak-peak of this 'heavenly city' that Christ has been preparing for us. Of course, said inheritance will stretch beyond just a city, even one as vast as the New Jerusalem. But the NJ is a symbol of man and God dwelling together, just as Eden was in Genesis.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. -Revelation 21:1–3

And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. -Revelation 21:22–27

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. -Revelation 22:1–5

A place where God and the Lamb rules with glory and honor over all, having the 'nations' walk and worship by their light, their 'gates' always open for us to enter (access). Where the water and tree of life are freely accessible and no sin, death or sadness persist.
Indeed....I would say this is the promised land and that which we all long for...wouldn't you?

@Naomi25 There are amazing insights in Hebrews and Revelation, some of the language of which is rooted in the Old Testament also.

 

[Naomi25]

You forget that we are grafted into the place of Gods blessings for Israel the nation! so we are experiencing the spiritual blessings, not the physical kingdom aspect.

As we both love to quote Romans 11:

why would the Apostles need to reiterate the promises of the kingdom to Israel when they were called to go into teh world and call gentiles and teh remnant in the church age?

These promises are not relevant to the church, but to the nation of Israel as I showed you from all the SCriptures I posted to you.

I can't exactly see your point here, I'm sorry. I have a 'logical' brain, so bear with me as I attempt to work through it.
You say we (the church) are experiencing the 'spiritual' nature of the kingdom, (which I don't disagree with) but not the physical nature...and that we have been 'grafted into the place of Gods blessings for Israel the nation'.
And yes, I absolutely agree that Rom 11 says that all Gentile believers are 'grafted' onto the olive tree with remnant Jewish believers in Jesus (who is the root of the tree).
You say that the 'promises of the kingdom' are not relevant to the Church. Which just baffles me, because we've just established that currently, the church and believing Israel are grafted into one. And for 'national Israel' to be redeemed back to the Father, back onto the path where the kingdom becomes a reality for them again, they too must be grafted back onto the tree, wherein they also become part of the one body. One body that includes the 'church'.

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. -Ephesians 3:6

So I do not follow your logic in that there is a separation between Israel and church. I think you can argue that there is a separation between the 'already/not yet' nature of the kingdom, but not the people who belong to the kingdom. We are all one in Christ. And to be partakers of and in the kingdom, we must belong to that tree and root. There is no other way around it or to it. And that tree, that root, has had branches growing since Acts 1. The kingdom, whether it be physical or spiritual, is still present and manifest in those who belong to Christ, regardless of who their ancestors are. That is the clear teaching of scripture.

But let me ask you a question. do you believe that when god said ( without preconditions) things like "it shall come to pass", "the Lord has declared" , " I will cause"- that those things will happen as god said?

Of course. But how the OT people saw those things coming to pass and how the NT authors saw them are not always analogous.
For example:

Open to me the gates of righteousness,
that I may enter through them
and give thanks to the LORD.
This is the gate of the LORD;
the righteous shall enter through it.
I thank you that you have answered me
and have become my salvation.
The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone.
This is the LORD’s doing;
it is marvelous in our eyes.
This is the day that the LORD has made;
let us rejoice and be glad in it. -Psalm 118:19–24

The Psalm uses the image of builders who have rejected a particular 'cornerstone' as suited for the purpose, but they were wrong. The psalmist is likening Israel to this particular stone...the great powers of the time thought little of Israel, but God had chosen the nation to be the 'cornerstone' of his great plan.
Then we come to the NT, where Jesus himself refers back to this Psalm:

Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. -Matthew 21:37–43

Jesus takes what in the OT was a reference to Israel and applies it directly to himself.

I could give dozens more examples...and we see Jesus on the road to Emmaus specifically telling his disciples to do just that. Interpret OT promises and types in light of his coming and work.
My point is: God always fulfills his promises, but Jesus often reveals to us that he is doing so in a way that was not expected from certain readings of OT texts.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We can then go to Revelation to get a bit of a sneak-peak of this 'heavenly city' that Christ has been preparing for us. Of course, said inheritance will stretch beyond just a city, even one as vast as the New Jerusalem. But the NJ is a symbol of man and God dwelling together, just as Eden was in Genesis.

‘But the NJ is a symbol of man and God dwelling together’ Just a perspective but not any man but that which growth up and increases in stature ‘of the fullness of Christ’. The Head and the body: so much so the Head anointed ‘the anointing received remains’ Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Ephesians 1:22-23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, [23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

‘But the NJ is a symbol of man and God dwelling together’ Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Realize we have a disconnect. Wish I could understand how you see things.

 

[Naomi25]

I twas taken away form that generation! If God meant all Jews for all time He would have said so! But Jesus said "unto you". And in many other places He always referred it to that generation!

I don't think I've claimed 'all Jews for all time'. To my knowledge, all I've done is reiterate what scripture has said: that the kingdom will be 'taken away' from the current 'tenants' and given to a 'people' producing fruit.
The 'current tenants' was 'national Israel', under the old covenant of works. Those that relied on both their own righteousness and their very ethnicity to gain salvation. Jesus announced that the kingdom was being 'taken away' from them and being given to a 'people' producing fruit. That is the very definition of those saved under grace. Which is NOT race specific. Yes, the bible is clear that the gospel of the kingdom was held out to the Gentiles, but a Jewish remnant of the faithful were included in that number.
The simple fact is: this parable says nothing about generations or time frames, just who the kingdom is being taken away from and offered to. When you go to other verses like Romans 11 or Luke 21 that speaks of a future 'time' for national Israel, it is always set, it seems, at the last days and still requires 'national' Israel to come to Jesus and him alone...which as I keep saying, means they are to be grafted back onto the olive tree...where is where the Church is currently growing. That makes it one body, whatever you choose to call it.

The parables were not given to show the Jews how the kingdom was to be taken, but to keep them from knowing the truth!

No...they were given IN parables, so only the wise may understand them. But the content of the parables were still pertinent. You can't say that all the parables were spoken simply to disguise 'truth' from people, then dismiss the fact that there was truth IN said parables.
And the fact of the matter is, after Jesus told that parable, we are told that they DID clearly understand it:

When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet. -Matthew 21:45–46

YOu also forget that Jesus has not been made King yet! He is still in His role as HIgh priest!

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jesus was prophet until either the end of the last supper or sometime during His passion.

Then he switched and became High priest to make sacrifice for sin and to begin atonement or sin.

Sorry to disappoint you, but Christ is all three; Prophet, Priest AND King. He holds a threefold office. That's basic theology, you can do a search, even your side supports it I suspect.
Some verses:

If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord needs them,’ and he will send them at once.” This took place to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet, saying,
“Say to the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your king is coming to you,
humble, and mounted on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’”-Matthew 21:3–5

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22

and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood -Revelation 1:5

On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. -Revelation 19:16

Jesus Christ was king as he rode humbly to his death. He was king when he was seated at God's right hand above all other powers and authorities. He will remain king before he returns and as he returns in glory.
As, as I seem to keep needing to say....there is CLEARLY a kingdom now, whatever the format, spiritual or otherwise, the bible speaks of it repeatedly, and you cannot HAVE a kingdom without a king.

When He physically returns to earth at the end of the 70th week of Danil, He then takes on His role as King of Kings for approx. 1,000 years.

Then when He vanquishes the last enemy:

Now you have alluded that Jesus reigns in eternity but the bible says no.

Swell, but it doesn't SAY that. Where does it SAY there's going to be a thousand years gap? Unless you assume it, it's not there, is it?


But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death....
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
-1 Corinthians 15:23–26,54

The remarkable amount of "when" and "then"'s in this passage ought to show us the follow-on of Paul's thought, but let's break it down:

Paul is speaking about us receiving our own resurrection bodies, yeah? He says that it all happens in it's own order...so he's laying out the order of things. He tells us that Christ was the firstfruits, which we already know. But then he tells us what we really want to know:

• "THEN AT his coming"...we who belong to Christ will get our new bodies.

• "THEN comes the end"....the END...not a pre-trib rapture followed by 7 years. 'End'.

• "WHEN he delivers the kingdom to the Father"....for him to deliver something at this 'end', something must exist now. It cannot come into existence at the moment of his coming and be handed over at the same instant.
  
• "AFTER destroying every rule and authority and power"....again, if both the end and the handing over happen AT his coming, then the destroying of these things has to be complete by the time said 'coming' takes place.
  
• "FOR he must reign UNTIL he has put ALL enemies under his feet"....a qualifying statement for the previous sentence and one that gives light on the next one. IF the above enemies are already under his feet and ready to be handed over AT his return, how can we say that all enemies are under his feet?
• "THE LAST ENEMY to be destroyed is death"...of course. Death still prowls this world. Has Christ defeated it? In a real way, of course, on the cross, but he has waited to fully subdue it in order that his kingdom may grow. And when, we might ask, will death be fully and finally defeated? Well, the beginning of the passage really answered that, but Paul puts all doubt to rest further down:
• "WHEN the perishable puts on imperishable...THEN...death is swallowed up in victory". This is the moment of ultimate triumph, for us and for Christ...the 'Rapture' many call it, the moment of that twinkly eye when we are raised up and given our new resurrection bodies. Which brings us, as I said, solidly back to the beginning of this passage....AT Christ's coming, WHEN the END comes, the KINGDOM is handed over and DEATH is defeated finally.

So...you can insert a 1000 year gap in there if you really really want to, but I simply cannot see how it can be included with any sort of faithful reading.

 

[Enoch111]

then could not also the same be said: His kingdom is in the world but not of the world.

As I said, only until the Second coming of Christ. Then this is what will happen: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev 11:15)

 

[Naomi25]

Yes we are and this may be a good place where we must agree to disagree before it becomes disagreeable.

I can never reinterpret again the promises God made in the Old concerning the nation of Israel and the future of them a s a nation and say that God has made those promises null and void and somehow transferred them over to the church and Jesus! It makes God an Indian giver when He said He would do something--PERIOD! I went fro a reformed, covenantal allegorical theology to a dispensational literal theology because as I have said often- the literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding SCripture and a dispensational theology does far less harm to the whole of Scripture as written than teh covenant view with it s replacement theology.

So I bid you a fond adieu and hope to see you on another thread! If you wish me to answer the rest of the quotes you posted- please say so and I will gladly answer them.

Well...I wish I had read this post first...I could have saved myself a few hours this morning for all those other posts of yours I just replied to. Ah well. You are, I think, correct. We seem not to be making much headway in convincing each other...if that indeed was our aim. Don't feel you need to answer any of those posts I just put up if you don't want to.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

for instance ‘the river of the water of Life’ ...is it the water of ‘let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of Life freely? Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As I said, only until the Second coming of Christ. Then this is what will happen: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev 11:15)

don’t disagree with the verse. Also, considering ‘in the world’ but not ‘of the world’ and His words of John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Other passages show the spirit of the world is fear unto bondage. The Spirit not of the world (from above) is of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

and to try the spirits whether they are of God...or of the world. (Imo) solidifying both are in the world but as Christ said He is not (of the world)fear unto bondage, but (from above) the Spirit God gives of power, of love, and of a sound mind(the mind of Christ). 1 John 4:1-4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. [2] Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: [3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. [4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 4:5-6 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. [6] We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'll try to put it as succinctly and biblically as I can:

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God....
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. -Hebrews 11:8-10,13–16

The author of Hebrews is making an astounding claim here. He says that although Abraham actually did dwell for some time in the 'promised' land, he died not having received the things promised. And yet, he, as did his faithful descendants, remained steadfast in their faith of this promised 'inheritance'. NOT because it was a piece of dirt, but because they recognized that it was, in fact, a 'better country', a heavenly city and that they, during their earthly lives, were exiles upon the earth.
This means, specifically, that every time the NT talks about the 'inheritance' or 'heirs to the promise' we receive in Christ, it is talking about this inheritance and promise:

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. -Ephesians 3:6

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. -Ephesians 1:13–14

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. -Hebrews 9:15

We can then go to Revelation to get a bit of a sneak-peak of this 'heavenly city' that Christ has been preparing for us. Of course, said inheritance will stretch beyond just a city, even one as vast as the New Jerusalem. But the NJ is a symbol of man and God dwelling together, just as Eden was in Genesis.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. -Revelation 21:1–3

And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. -Revelation 21:22–27

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. -Revelation 22:1–5

A place where God and the Lamb rules with glory and honor over all, having the 'nations' walk and worship by their light, their 'gates' always open for us to enter (access). Where the water and tree of life are freely accessible and no sin, death or sadness persist.
Indeed....I would say this is the promised land and that which we all long for...wouldn't you?

And I agree with all those Scriptures and the fact heaven will come down to the new earth!

But what yo ureject is also the clear unambiguous promises god made to Israel that they will have a kingdom here on earth with Messiah as its head who sits on the throne of David, with the apostles ruling over the twelve tribes. Just like all the verses I posted showed you!

1. I agree that the kingdom has taken on its mystery form.
2. I agree there is a very deep spiritual part to the kingdom.

Where I disagree, which is the standard arguments of replacement theology:

1. Because Israel rejected Jesus as a nation- their promises are over and finished in the Davidic and Palestinian Covenants.
2. God says it shall come to pass- becomes allegorized to be fulfilled in the church or Jesus and not literal.
3. there are numerous verses that says God will punish Israel for its sin (singular), scatter them globally for that sin (singular) and in the last days bring them back to the land God promised them and drive the rebel and the rest of the nation gets saved! This is what I teach as it is written, but you say that is wrong!

God promised Israel to be restored to the land- and they are!
God promised they would be a by word among the nations, and they are!
God promised when they returned, Jerusalem would be a stumbling block to the nations and it is!
God said they would live in safety, and despite all the attack's, they do!
God recorded another temple built- and the plans are drawn and much equipment pre prepared!

So why do we have to reject as non literal the promise that God will resote the kingdom to Israel with Messiah reigning as King?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I can't exactly see your point here, I'm sorry. I have a 'logical' brain, so bear with me as I attempt to work through it.
You say we (the church) are experiencing the 'spiritual' nature of the kingdom, (which I don't disagree with) but not the physical nature...and that we have been 'grafted into the place of Gods blessings for Israel the nation'.
And yes, I absolutely agree that Rom 11 says that all Gentile believers are 'grafted' onto the olive tree with remnant Jewish believers in Jesus (who is the root of the tree).
You say that the 'promises of the kingdom' are not relevant to the Church. Which just baffles me, because we've just established that currently, the church and believing Israel are grafted into one. And for 'national Israel' to be redeemed back to the Father, back onto the path where the kingdom becomes a reality for them again, they too must be grafted back onto the tree, wherein they also become part of the one body. One body that includes the 'church'.

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. -Ephesians 3:6

So I do not follow your logic in that there is a separation between Israel and church. I think you can argue that there is a separation between the 'already/not yet' nature of the kingdom, but not the people who belong to the kingdom. We are all one in Christ. And to be partakers of and in the kingdom, we must belong to that tree and root. There is no other way around it or to it. And that tree, that root, has had branches growing since Acts 1. The kingdom, whether it be physical or spiritual, is still present and manifest in those who belong to Christ, regardless of who their ancestors are. That is the clear teaching of scripture.


Of course. But how the OT people saw those things coming to pass and how the NT authors saw them are not always analogous.
For example:

Open to me the gates of righteousness,
that I may enter through them
and give thanks to the LORD.
This is the gate of the LORD;
the righteous shall enter through it.
I thank you that you have answered me
and have become my salvation.
The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone.
This is the LORD’s doing;
it is marvelous in our eyes.
This is the day that the LORD has made;
let us rejoice and be glad in it. -Psalm 118:19–24

The Psalm uses the image of builders who have rejected a particular 'cornerstone' as suited for the purpose, but they were wrong. The psalmist is likening Israel to this particular stone...the great powers of the time thought little of Israel, but God had chosen the nation to be the 'cornerstone' of his great plan.
Then we come to the NT, where Jesus himself refers back to this Psalm:

Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. -Matthew 21:37–43

Jesus takes what in the OT was a reference to Israel and applies it directly to himself.

I could give dozens more examples...and we see Jesus on the road to Emmaus specifically telling his disciples to do just that. Interpret OT promises and types in light of his coming and work.
My point is: God always fulfills his promises, but Jesus often reveals to us that he is doing so in a way that was not expected from certain readings of OT texts.

Many time OT people said things they did not understand the ramifications from. Prophesies, dreams, simple statements that actually were for th efuture.

But I used Romans 11 especially the end where it says the gifts andc alling of God are without repentance.

Chapter 11 is almost exclusively about Israel and the role of Gentiles with or to Israel.

Paul reminded that ISrael as a nation will be restored tot he place of blessing and receive all god promised the nation, for teh gifts and callings of God are without repentance. A future generation of Israel (the 1/3 left of Zech) will receive her Messiah and King and He will return and establish his kingdom! It is not much spoken of in th enew for it is not very relevant to teh mission of the church- go and make disciples in all nations.

Just like we do not talk much nor are they mentioned much things like creation, the flood, babel, the confounding of languages, Sodom and Gomorrah. They are briefly spoken of, but have little germaine to the role the church has in this age!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well...I wish I had read this post first...I could have saved myself a few hours this morning for all those other posts of yours I just replied to. Ah well. You are, I think, correct. We seem not to be making much headway in convincing each other...if that indeed was our aim. Don't feel you need to answer any of those posts I just put up if you don't want to.

It is never a waste when we study to show ourselves approved!

I will be honest, my aim was to try to convince you! I never debate and discuss for the sake of it, but to accomplish something. I look forward to engaging with you again! You truly are a treasure!