John Darby

[Billy Evmur]

you mean "pre trib"?

Jesus was post trib

"after the tribulation of those days ....they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send out His angels to gather the elect from the four winds of heaven."

 

[Billy Evmur]

I teach dispensationalism, but I modified it.

Paul certainly had a dispensation.

 

[Truther]

Jesus was post trib

"after the tribulation of those days ....they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send out His angels to gather the elect from the four winds of heaven."

The gathering of the elect are the dead tribulation saints.

This will complete the 1st resurrection at the return of Christ.

Prior to that, the firstfuits are resurrected(DEAD AND LIVE SAINTS)Cor 15.

 

[Truther]

Paul certainly had a dispensation.

Yes, there are particular time periods in the plan of God for mankind.

They all can be summarized by Law and Grace, which have always been around since day one.

Both Law and Grace have existed simultaneously, which sinners always had to choose one or the other.

The fall of man caused man to go from Grace to Law.(Judgement).

The flood cause man to go from Grace to Law.(judgement).

Same with Sodom, Jerusalem, backslid saints etc.

 

[Keraz]

The gathering of the elect are the dead tribulation saints.

This will complete the 1st resurrection at the return of Christ.

Prior to that, the firstfuits are resurrected(DEAD AND LIVE SAINTS)Cor 15.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is where you go wrong.
That prophecy is about the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.

Proved by how it is then that Death will be no more. We know there is still death during the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20

 

[Keraz]

You do not believe in the rapture?

It is the 'rapture to heaven', that is unbelievable.
That idea is a direct contradiction of the Words of Jesus; John 3:13, John 8:21-23, John 7:34, Revelation 5:10
Plus the many scriptures that DO tell us God's Plan for our future.

 

[Truther]

1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is where you go wrong.
That prophecy is about the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.

Proved by how it is then that Death will be no more. We know there is still death during the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20

I was speaking of this passage...


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: #1 Christ the firstfruits; afterward #2they that are Christ's at his coming.(2 Groups resurrected, then the Millennial reign starts)....

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


We are the firstfruits....

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Then those that are Christ's at His return....

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Truther]

It is the 'rapture to heaven', that is unbelievable.
That idea is a direct contradiction of the Words of Jesus; John 3:13, John 8:21-23, John 7:34, Revelation 5:10
Plus the many scriptures that DO tell us God's Plan for our future.

Do you think we all must die?

That nobody is changed from mortal to immortality except all die?

 

[Keraz]

Do you think we all must die?

That nobody is changed from mortal to immortality except all die?

No, because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51, that we will NOT all die.
But do not make the mistake of thinking that prophecy is anytime soon. It applies to those who are alive at the end of the 1000 year reign of Jesus and whose names are found in the Book of Life.

23 But every man in his own order: #1 Christ the firstfruits; afterward #2they that are Christ's at his coming.(2 Groups resurrected, then the Millennial reign starts)....

You are a very confused person.

Christ is the Firstfruit. His Resurrection 3 days after He died.
Those [dead] in Christ at His coming. The GT martyrs ONLY, as Revelation 20:4-5 makes abundantly clear.

Going to heaven is not our destiny. We Christians are God's witnesses and His Light to the Nations, we must endure until the end.

 

[Truther]

No, because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51, that we will NOT all die.
But do not make the mistake of thinking that prophecy is anytime soon. It applies to those who are alive at the end of the 1000 year reign of Jesus and whose names are found in the Book of Life.

You are a very confused person.

Christ is the Firstfruit. His Resurrection 3 days after He died.
Those [dead] in Christ at His coming. The GT martyrs ONLY, as Revelation 20:4-5 makes abundantly clear.

Going to heaven is not our destiny. We Christians are God's witnesses and His Light to the Nations, we must endure until the end.

It says firstfruits...plural.

Every man...plural.

Per James 1, are we a kind of the firstfruits or not?

 

[Keraz]

It says firstfruits...plural.

Every man...plural.

Per James 1, are we a kind of the firstfruits or not?

Christ; singular - is the firstfruits.

The martyrs beheaded during the GT are the first general resurrection.

There is no further resurrection until the end of the Millennium, when everyone who has ever lived, will be raised to stand before God in Judgment. Those found worthy will receive immortality, those not; go into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[Truther]

Christ; singular - is the firstfruits.

The martyrs beheaded during the GT are the first general resurrection.

There is no further resurrection until the end of the Millennium, when everyone who has ever lived, will be raised to stand before God in Judgment. Those found worthy will receive immortality, those not; go into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:11-15

James says we are firstfruits(plural).

Is Christ the only firstfruit?

Do you agree with James?

How many firstfruits are there?

22.... so in Christ shall all(plural) be made alive.
23 But every man(plural) in his own order: Christ the firstfruits(plural); afterward they(plural) that are Christ's at his coming.

If it was singular, then it would say firstfruit.(singular).

 

[WaterSong]

We all know that John Darby came up with the pre-tribulation rapture.

But did you know that Darby also

Invented electricity,
Wrote the consitution,
Came up with the theory of relativity,
The law of gravity
And the recipe for maple syrup.

In fact, if we look further back in history you will see that John Darby probably discovered fire and invented the wheel too.

LOL! Talented Irishman wasn't he?

In all seriousness though, you might be interested in this.

DISPENSATIONALISM BEFORE DARBY WILLIAM C WATSON PDF&ID=D41D8CD98F00B204E9800998ECF8427E | ipv6.flashphoner.com

 

[teamventure]

LOL! Talented Irishman wasn't he?

In all seriousness though, you might be interested in this.

DISPENSATIONALISM BEFORE DARBY WILLIAM C WATSON PDF&ID=D41D8CD98F00B204E9800998ECF8427E | ipv6.flashphoner.com

Thanks for the recommendation Watersong.

 

[Billy Evmur]

LOL! Talented Irishman wasn't he?

In all seriousness though, you might be interested in this.

DISPENSATIONALISM BEFORE DARBY WILLIAM C WATSON PDF&ID=D41D8CD98F00B204E9800998ECF8427E | ipv6.flashphoner.com

The Brethren are beautiful christians, the first to break bread among themselves

 

[GISMYS_7]

Christ; singular - is the firstfruits.

The martyrs beheaded during the GT are the first general resurrection.

There is no further resurrection until the end of the Millennium, when everyone who has ever lived, will be raised to stand before God in Judgment. Those found worthy will receive immortality, those not; go into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:11-15

At the end of the great tribulation Jesus WILL RETURN WITH THE RAPTURED SAINTS AND ANGLES.= Jude 1:14 "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones. New Living Translation

 

[Keraz]

At the end of the great tribulation Jesus WILL RETURN WITH THE RAPTURED SAINTS AND ANGLES.= Jude 1:14 "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones. New Living Translation

Absolutely unscriptural.
Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 are clear; ONLY the armies of heaven accompany Jesus at His Return.
Holy ones, in the context of Jude 1:14 means angels. ]NOT 'angles', as in 'change of direction! Or did you mean Anglicans?

 

[GISMYS_7]

Absolutely unscriptural.
Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 are clear; ONLY the armies of heaven accompany Jesus at His Return.
Holy ones, in the context of Jude 1:14 means angels. ]NOT 'angles', as in 'change of direction! Or did you mean Anglicans?

ZECHARIAH 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst of it toward the east, and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and """all the saints with you."""

1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 (Paul)
13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ """with all his saints""".

JUDE 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, """the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints2
""".
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against them.

 

[quietthinker]

ZECHARIAH 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst of it toward the east, and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and """all the saints with you."""

1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 (Paul)
13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ """with all his saints""".

JUDE 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, """the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints2
""".
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against them.

Clarity comes when all the thrashing around in an empty drum stops and other sounds are heard.

 

[Keraz]

Gismys7,
If the Lord does Return with the 'saints'. firstly that idea is a contradiction of Matthew 16:27 and Rev 19:14 and secondly how and when did those people get to heaven?
Please provide scriptural proof of their ascent to heaven.

If you can't, I suggest you stay in your fantasy dreamland and leave the discussions on Prophecy to those who actually read and understand the Lord's plans and purposes for our future.