John Darby

[GISMYS_7]

The saints in heaven that return with Jesus are all those that have died plus those that did not die but are raptured.

ZECHARIAH 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst of it toward the east, and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and """all the saints with you."""

1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 (Paul)
13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ """with all his saints""".

JUDE 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, """the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints2
""".
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against them.

 

[Keraz]

If the Lord does Return with the 'saints'. firstly that idea is a contradiction of Matthew 16:27 and Rev 19:14 and secondly how and when did those people get to heaven?
Please provide scriptural proof of their ascent to heaven.

The saints in heaven that return with Jesus are all those that have died plus those that did not die but are raptured.

All those who have died, incl the saints such as David, Acts 13:36, lie in their graves, awaiting the final Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
So you belief is wrong and you totally fail to provide any proof of a general 'rapture to heaven'.

 

[GISMYS_7]

If the Lord does Return with the 'saints'. firstly that idea is a contradiction of Matthew 16:27 and Rev 19:14 and secondly how and when did those people get to heaven?
Please provide scriptural proof of their ascent to heaven.

All those who have died, incl the saints such as David, Acts 13:36, lie in their graves, awaiting the final Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
So you belief is wrong and you totally fail to provide any proof of a general 'rapture to heaven'.

To be absent from the body is to be present with God in heaven!! Moses who had been dead 500+ years was seen talking to Jesus!!
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. Matthew 17:3

 

[Keraz]

To be absent from the body is to be present with God in heaven!! Moses who had been dead 500+ years was seen talking to Jesus!!
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. Matthew 17:3

Paul didn't say that we would be immediately present with the Lord when we die. He wished it and it will be a reality, provided our names are found in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:11-15
Enoch, Moses, Elijah and the two Witnesses, are special cases. They do not prove a general 'rapture of the Church'.

All those who believe in a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, just haven't read or understood what God does actually plan for His people in the end times. His holy people ARE present on earth then, proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

 

[GISMYS_7]

Paul didn't say that we would be immediately present with the Lord when we die. He wished it and it will be a reality, provided our names are found in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:11-15
Enoch, Moses, Elijah and the two Witnesses, are special cases. They do not prove a general 'rapture of the Church'.

All those who believe in a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, just haven't read or understood what God does actually plan for His people in the end times. His holy people ARE present on earth then, proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

Those that deny and reject the rapture will be left behind,Jesus will return for those that are looking for Him.Jesus tells believers to pray that they are worthy to escape the great tribulation.==Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."Luke 21:36
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 King James Version (KJV) 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

 

[Keraz]

It is a shame that the end time events will surprise and shock all who have gripped onto false theories.
It will be just so much harder for them, as it all unfolds as the Bible prophets tell us. NOT as the promotors of unbiblical fables say.

 

[GISMYS_7]

It is a shame that the end time events will surprise and shock all who have gripped onto false theories.
It will be just so much harder for them, as it all unfolds as the Bible prophets tell us. NOT as the promotors of unbiblical fables say.

I posted God's Word NOT my word!!!

Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."Luke 21:36
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and """unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time."""

Those "believers"that deny and reject the rapture will be left behind and must try to live under anti-christ rule and the judgments of the great triblution. Why do things the hard way???

 

[Keraz]

Those "believers"that deny and reject the rapture will be left behind and must try to live under anti-christ rule and the judgments of the great triblution.

Why don't you read what the Bible actually tells us where the faithful Christians will be during the rule of the Anti-Christ?
Revelation 12:14 The followers of the 'man child', Rev 12:5 & 13, will be flown to a remote place of safety on earth for the 3 1/2 years that the 'beast' will have world control. Revelation 13:5-8
We never go to live in heaven, Jesus said so. John 3:13

 

[teamventure]

We never go to live in heaven?

Correction; there will be heaven on earth,
so technically we will be in heaven.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Why don't you read what the Bible actually tells us where the faithful Christians will be during the rule of the Anti-Christ?
Revelation 12:14 The followers of the 'man child', Rev 12:5 & 13, will be flown to a remote place of safety on earth for the 3 1/2 years that the 'beast' will have world control. Revelation 13:5-8
We never go to live in heaven, Jesus said so. John 3:13

 

[GISMYS_7]

WOW!! Pray for wisdom and understanding. Revelation 12:14 is about the Jewish people being safe from the evil beast. John 3:13 is not about believers that have died and those that will be raptured!!!

 

[GISMYS_7]

I posted God's Word NOT my word!!!
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."Luke 21:36
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and """unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time."""

Those "believers"that deny and reject the rapture will be left behind and must try to live under anti-christ rule and the judgments of the great triblution. Why do things the hard way???

 

[Randy Kluth]

I posted God's Word NOT my word!!!
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."Luke 21:36
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and """unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time."""

Those "believers"that deny and reject the rapture will be left behind and must try to live under anti-christ rule and the judgments of the great triblution. Why do things the hard way???

The "easy path" is not Christ's path. He said his way was narrow. He said we must also take up our cross. He saw we would experience false Christs and false prophets, and suffer tribulation in this life. He said each day would have its own troubles. What makes you think you represent the truth when you say such things?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the saints are spared from the time when Antichrist reigns! The saints in the OT were not spared the rule of Pharaoh, of Nebuchadnezzar, nor of Caesar. Christians were not spared the rule of Mohammad or Napoleon nor of Hitler or Stalin. What makes you think Antichrist will be any different?

There were antichrists like Antichrist in the early Church, according to John. If this is the destiny of the Church, who are you to make life to be a bed of roses?

Nothing in the Scriptures say what you claim they say. On the contrary, Paul explicitly said that until Antichrist is defeated, Christ will not come back to take up his saints.

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Read slowly!! Do you believe God's Word????
I posted God's Word NOT my word!!!
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."Luke 21:36
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and """unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time."""

Those "believers"that deny and reject the rapture will be left behind and must try to live under anti-christ rule and the judgments of the great triblution. Why do things the hard way???

 

[Randy Kluth]

Read slowly!! Do you believe God's Word????
I posted God's Word NOT my word!!!
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."Luke 21:36
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and """unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time."""

Those "believers"that deny and reject the rapture will be left behind and must try to live under anti-christ rule and the judgments of the great triblution. Why do things the hard way???

I was not referring to the Scriptures you posted. I was responding to what you repeat above: "Those "believers"that deny and reject the rapture will be left behind and must try to live under anti-christ rule and the judgments of the great triblution. Why do things the hard way???"

You are suggesting that there is an *easier way* than facing antichrists in this age, and that simply isn't true, nor is it what Scripture says. I also posted you Scriptural truths, which you seem to be contradicting. The path is not easy, and we will indeed face antichrists.

 

[Grunt Hemlock]

Paul didn't say that we would be immediately present with the Lord when we die.

Yeah he did.

2Co 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

C'mon @Keraz - you don't fall for that SDA tripe Soul Sleep jazz do ya?

 

[Enoch111]

He saw we would experience false Christs and false prophets, and suffer tribulation in this life.

Of course. But He was not referring to "the Great Tribulation" nor "the time of Jacob's trouble". Indeed in John 14:1-3 -- which is the first reference to the Rapture -- Jesus said "Let not your heart be troubled". Which automatically excluded that period encompassing the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. These are periods of divine judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly, not on the children of God. The Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture of the Church is a solid Bible doctrine.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Of course. But He was not referring to "the Great Tribulation" nor "the time of Jacob's trouble". Indeed in John 14:1-3 -- which is the first reference to the Rapture -- Jesus said "Let not your heart be troubled". Which automatically excluded that period encompassing the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. These are periods of divine judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly, not on the children of God. The Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture of the Church is a solid Bible doctrine.

You couldn't be more wrong. The book of Revelation I read paints the picture of a glorious Church, enduring the Antichrist and his "mark." Weathering death itself, these Christians are welcomed into positions of authority, sitting on judgment seats judging the earth during the Millennium. I see nothing about the Church avoiding the Antichrist or the troubles of that time.

 

[Keraz]

Yeah he did.

2Co 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

C'mon @Keraz - you don't fall for that SDA tripe Soul Sleep jazz do ya?

No; Paul didn't say Christians instantly go to be with the Lord at their death. He was willing, or would rather that to be the case, but it isn't; proved by the many scriptures that clearly say all people lie in their graves and know nothing when dead. Eccl 9:5

I have no knowledge of SDA beliefs on this matter.

 

[Keraz]

I see nothing about the Church avoiding the Antichrist or the troubles of that time.

Quite right, we must stand firm and endure all that will happen. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12
Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where the holy people of God are present in the holy Land, when the AC conquers them.