John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again"

[Tong2020]

Chop chop to only that which I was responding to!

You should at least quote the complete statement you are responding to and not take out portions, especially if doing so, corrupts the meaning of the statement.
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Tong2020 said:
Was the birth from above offered by God to mankind?

Yes.

Please cite reference scriptures.
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Tong2020 said:
Can the natural sinful man, who are said to be "dead" and so are not able to see, hear, understand, truth that comes from the true God, accept this supposed offering by God to them?

They can not hear God...however they can hear or read the Word of God.

God offers many, many things, and any individual can discover what those things are by hearing or reading scripture.

I have just pointed out that the natural sinful man, who are said to be "dead", are not able to see, hear, understand, truth that comes from the true God. And that would not exclude truth revealed and written out in scriptures. It seems that you put much difference in hearing God and hearing the Word of God.
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Tong2020 said:
Besides, how can they, in and on their own, accept anything from God whom they do not believe in?

It is Obvious men are naturally born without belief...
Some men are content with their Disbelief...
There is nothing for them to accept.
Some men desire to Believe...and seek...Hear/ read...which IS Enlightment.
For their effort, they are blessed with measures of faith from God.

It is God who first choose people, not the other way around.

And while scriptures says whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, one must consider: How shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
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Tong2020 said:
Jesus puts it plain and clear, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God. He cannot see that the God in heaven above is the King whom he must serve and obey.

Mostly correct.

Must serve? What do you mean? Like what?

I am sure you know how to serve God. In the general sense, it is obedience to His will, loving Him with all your heart, soul, and mind, loving your neighbor as yourself.

If the natural sinful man cannot see the kingdom of God, if he cannot see that the God in heaven above is the King whom he must put his faith in, whom he must serve and obey, how can he then believe? As Jesus pointed out, one must be born from above to be able to see the kingdom of God.

Tong
R1113

 

[justbyfaith]

We are born again because we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

Obedience to the gospel has to do with the moral tenets of the gospel found in the Sermon on the Mount, the Sermon on the Plain, the list of the fruits of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23, and other virtues exemplified in the New Testament.

Such an obedience is not salvational to us. It is the result of salvation, you can be certain of that.

Therefore, obedience to the gospel and believing the gospel are two different hings.

 

[Enoch111]

Obedience to the gospel has to do with the moral tenets of the gospel found in the Sermon on the Mount..

No. That is not what obedience to the Gospel means. It means (1) REPENTANCE toward God and (2) FAITH toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). God COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). God also COMMANDS all men everywhere to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 10:9; 1 John 3:23).

 

[justbyfaith]

No. That is not what obedience to the Gospel means. It means (1) REPENTANCE toward God and (2) FAITH toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). God COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). God also COMMANDS all men everywhere to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 10:9; 1 John 3:23).

Repentance implies you are going to be obedient to something.

I believe that this obedience is to the moral tenets of the gospel, found in Matthew 5-7, Luke 6:20-49, and Galatians 5:22-23 and elsewhere in the New Testament.

For the gospel does indeed contain a morality that we are to be obedient to.

Therefore, believing the gospel, and obeying it, are two different things.

In true Christianity, we receive Jesus not only as our Saviour but as our Lord.

 

[Tong2020]

Scriptures says whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. But who are they who can call on the name of the Lord? One must consider: How shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

We have Jesus, in one occasion saying "let the dead bury their own dead". Jesus' calling them dead, even while they are alive in the flesh, tells us of their spiritual state, that is, they are not able to see, hear, understand, truth that comes from the true God. They could not spiritually discern. So when the truth, that is, the gospel of Jesus Christ, is preached to them or when they come to read scriptures, how can they hear the truth? How can they see the truth? How can they understand the truth? Without the ability to spiritually discern, they could not.

And so we have Jesus putting it plain and clear, even to Nicodemus, a teacher of Israel, this truth, that unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God. He cannot see that the God in heaven above is the King whom he must put His faith in, serve and obey.

The natural sinful man, not able to see, hear, and understand, the truths that comes from God, not able to spiritually discern, dead in that sense, could not do anything, in and by his own will in that regard. But there are some Christians who hold to the idea that the natural sinful man could by his own will, somehow cause himself to be born from above (that which only God is able to do), something that is a matter of the spirit, when he is clearly one who is alive in the flesh but dead in the spirit. How could they so easily forget that being said to be dead means to be powerless, not able to do anything.

Who then will be born from above? This belongs to God.

Tong
R1114

 

[Candidus]

The Holy Ghost is absolutely promised to those who receive baptism in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39).

Wrong! The Holy Spirit inspired the original Greek which ties remission of sins to repentance, not to baptism. Working your way to heaven by getting wet is not the Gospel!

 

[justbyfaith]

Scriptures says whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. But who are they who can call on the name of the Lord? One must consider: How shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

We have Jesus, in one occasion saying "let the dead bury their own dead". Jesus' calling them dead, even while they are alive in the flesh, tells us of their spiritual state, that is, they are not able to see, hear, understand, truth that comes from the true God. They could not spiritually discern. So when the truth, that is, the gospel of Jesus Christ, is preached to them or when they come to read scriptures, how can they hear the truth? How can they see the truth? How can they understand the truth? Without the ability to spiritually discern, they could not.

And so we have Jesus putting it plain and clear, even to Nicodemus, a teacher of Israel, this truth, that unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God. He cannot see that the God in heaven above is the King whom he must put His faith in, serve and obey.

The natural sinful man, not able to see, hear, and understand, the truths that comes from God, not able to spiritually discern, dead in that sense, could not do anything, in and by his own will in that regard. But there are some Christians who hold to the idea that the natural sinful man could by his own will, somehow cause himself to be born from above (that which only God is able to do), something that is a matter of the spirit, when he is clearly one who is alive in the flesh but dead in the spirit. How could they so easily forget that being said to be dead means to be powerless, not able to do anything.

Who then will be born from above? This belongs to God.

Tong
R1114

Most certainly, no one can come to Jesus except they are drawn by the Father (the Holy Spirit?) to Him.

There is certainly a quickening that takes place before a person comes to faith in Jesus. God instills faith in the person through His word (Romans 10:17). The choice comes in that the person is being "woken up out of sleep" and has the option of waking up completely or else returning to their slumber. For many, it is more comfortable to return to the slumber of spiritual death when the Holy Spirit begins to alight upon their conscience. But for those who make a decision to surrender their lives to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, they become spiritually alive in a complete sense of the word.

For we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2).

Wrong! The Holy Spirit inspired the original Greek which ties remission of sins to repentance, not to baptism. Working your way to heaven by getting wet is not the Gospel!

You are right in a certain sense. It is not the water that saves but faith in the operation of God (Colossians 2:12 (kjv)) as the person identifies through baptism (in water, 1 Peter 3:20-21 (kjv)) with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

I don't think that baptism in Jesus' Name is excluded as a part of the condition that is given; while repentance is definitely required; and I will not dispute that.

I will say that I believe that a person can be saved apart from baptism in Jesus' Name; but that baptism in Jesus' Name will remove all doubt as to whether or not you are saved...it will seal the deal.

You can merely believe in Jesus and you "should not perish" (John 3:16)...iffy.

You can believe and be baptized and you "shall be saved" (Mark 16:16).

You also "shall be saved" if you call upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13).

 

[Candidus]

You can merely believe in Jesus and you "should not perish" (John 3:16)...iffy.

You can believe and be baptized and you "shall be saved" (Mark 16:16).

You also "shall be saved" if you call upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13).

You can merely believe in Jesus and you "should not perish" (John 3:16)... far from "iffy."

You can believe and be baptized and you "shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). Highly "iffy" since the passage is most likely not genuine. It would be the last supporting verse I would use, and never my foundational support for any doctrine.

You also "shall be saved" if you call upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13), which says the same thing as Jn. 3:16.

The synoptics also have places where it says "repent and believe." This speaks of a quality of faith, a saving faith that works. Many say, "I believe in God" yet their belief has no impact on their living. Saving faith composes of forsaking sin and believing on Christ (calling upon His name) for forgiveness. Water baptism follows salvation, it does not contribute to a so-called "iffy" salvation. The outward testimony of baptism is to show people what God has worked in you, and a public rejection of your past. In the Early Church, getting publicly baptized was in a sense, a bridge-burning sign of commitment which brought persecution and even possibly death. One would be highly suspect in the Church community if they refused the command to be baptized. I would think that once a new saved believer understands this is the will of God, that they would look forward to the testimony of His work in their lives.

The issue for me is not that converts should not be baptized, but that if they are getting water baptized to "get saved," then they are trusting in their own works and not getting baptized because they are already saved. Paul writes to those Jews who thought that since they were circumcised, they were "saved." But Paul told them that not all of Israel, are truly Israel. That only by faith are they children of God. Paul's example was that even Abraham was saved before he was circumcised, not after.

Even in Galatians, Paul said to those that were told that they were not saved unless they were circumcised, that by doing so, they were no longer trusting in the work of Christ (grace), and by doing so, they severed themselves from Christ. I firmly believe that it is a serious error to place salvation after water Baptism and not before. That to rely on the act of water baptism yields the same result as relying on the act of circumcision for salvation.

 

[Tong2020]

Most certainly, no one can come to Jesus except they are drawn by the Father (the Holy Spirit?) to Him.

There is certainly a quickening that takes place before a person comes to faith in Jesus. God instills faith in the person through His word (Romans 10:17). The choice comes in that the person is being "woken up out of sleep" and has the option of waking up completely or else returning to their slumber. For many, it is more comfortable to return to the slumber of spiritual death when the Holy Spirit begins to alight upon their conscience. But for those who make a decision to surrender their lives to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, they become spiritually alive in a complete sense of the word.

For we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2).

That's right, there is a quickening that takes place. And this is again the work of God, not of the man. The natural sinful man, not able to see, hear, and understand, the truths that comes from God, not able to spiritually discern, dead in that sense, obviously could not quicken himself. The choice is God's and the quickening is God's. Who are quickenned? This belongs to God.

Tong
R1115

 

[justbyfaith]

You can merely believe in Jesus and you "should not perish" (John 3:16)... far from "iffy."

"should" as opposed to "shall" is iffy. For "shall" is a more absolute statement than "should".

You can believe and be baptized and you "shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). Highly "iffy" since the passage is most likely not genuine. It would be the last supporting verse I would use, and never my foundational support for any doctrine.

I consider that those who do not acknowledge Mark 16:16 as being in scripture have taken away from the word; and that those who do acknowledge it have not added. Because if they had added, there would have been the visible sign of the plagues of the book of Revelation added to them; while if they took away in the modern translations, the sign would be invisible...their names are taken out of the Book of Life.

Since there is no visible sign concerning this, I consider that the latter has happened.

Therefore, Mark 16:16 is to be included in holy scripture.

You also "shall be saved" if you call upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13), which says the same thing as Jn. 3:16.

Not the same thing as John 3:16...calling on the name of the Lord is a step that you take because of faith...one can believe without calling on His name.

Water baptism follows salvation, it does not contribute to a so-called "iffy" salvation. The outward testimony of baptism is to show people what God has worked in you, and a public rejection of your past.

It is also a confession of Jesus Christ Himself (and therefore can be salvational)...see Matthew 10:32.

The issue for me is not that converts should not be baptized, but that if they are getting water baptized to "get saved," then they are trusting in their own works and not getting baptized because they are already saved.

Actually, baptism is not a "work".

Paul's example was that even Abraham was saved before he was circumcised, not after.

However, circumcision was a seal of the righteousness which he had by faith (Romans 4:11).

Even in Galatians, Paul said to those that were told that they were not saved unless they were circumcised, that by doing so, they were no longer trusting in the work of Christ (grace), and by doing so, they severed themselves from Christ.

Baptism and circumcision are not the same thing.

For one thing, we are told that "baptism doth also now save us" in 1 Peter 3:21...

Whereas, it seems, with circumcision, only condemnation awaits.

I firmly believe that it is a serious error to place salvation after water Baptism and not before. That to rely on the act of water baptism yields the same result as relying on the act of circumcision for salvation.

I really don't think so. Scripture does not bear out that there is condemnation for being baptized.

 

[justbyfaith]

Who are quickened? This belongs to God.

Those who are quickened are those who are drawn to Christ by the Father (the Holy Spirit?). And Jesus said,

Jhn 12:32, And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[Candidus]

I consider that those who do not acknowledge Mark 16:16 as being in scripture have taken away from the word; and that those who do acknowledge it have not added. Because if they had added, there would have been the visible sign of the plagues of the book of Revelation added to them; while if they took away in the modern translations, the sign would be invisible...their names are taken out of the Book of Life.

I consider that those who do not acknowledge the fact that Mark 16:16 was unknown to the early Church fathers, and has no evidence of existing for the first 500 years of Christian history, have added to the word; and that those who do acknowledge it have added it. Because if they had added, there would have been the visible sign of the plagues of the book of Revelation added to them; while if they took away in the modern translations, (which they don't) the sign would be invisible...their names are taken out of the Book of Life.

 

[Candidus]

Actually, baptism is not a "work".

Spiritual baptism is not a work. Water baptism is, unless you are kidnapped against your will and force to be baptized. God is not water baptized for you.

Hanging someone isn't a work either. Circumcision is also not a work, yet relying on it for salvation, cancels grace. The Galatians had the power to not be circumcised. Their was no arrangement to have themselves secretly abducted in the middle of the night and have someone cut off their foreskin. Yet, Paul says that God considers it a "work", adding to grace.

 

[Candidus]

I really don't think so. Scripture does not bear out that there is condemnation for being baptized.

The Scripture bear out that adding any work as a condition of salvation, cancels grace. Adding Church membership cancels grace if you are depending on it to save you. Tithing cancels grace if one depends on it for their salvation. Baptism, the precise words or mode is often times what people rely on for salvation. The principle bears out on any addition to salvation by grace through faith.

Saying that you said the Sinners Prayer when you were 12, will not fly at the Judgment. Saying that you are a Church Member in good standing will not fly at the Judgment. Saying that you got baptized the right way, with the right words will not fly either. It smacks of pride, and makes correct theology the means of salvation, and not salvation by grace through faith. It is evidence that you trust in your own works, and not the work of Jesus Christ as the basis for your salvation.

 

[Tong2020]

Those who are quickened are those who are drawn to Christ by the Father (the Holy Spirit?). And Jesus said,

Jhn 12:32, And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

One is drawn to Christ or to the Son (by the Father), if and when they have been quickened. For if they had not been quickened yet, they remain unquickened natural sinful man, not able to see, hear, and understand, the truths that comes from God, not able to spiritually discern, dead in that sense. One drawn to the Son might very well be an indication to us that one is among those quickened.

It seems that you are misusing John 12:32. Consider what the context verse 33 have to say in relation to this statement. Also, are you trying to say by citing that scripture, that all men are drawn to the Son and so all men are quickened?

Tong
R1116

 

[justbyfaith]

Spiritual baptism is not a work. Water baptism is, unless you are kidnapped against your will and force to be baptized. God is not water baptized for you.

Water baptism is also not a work. Because it is clear from holy scripture (1 Peter 3:20-21 (kjv)) that it has the power to save. And salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins is also given as condition through which one might receive the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39). I believe that receiving the Holy Spirit is salvation.

Therefore salvation is absolutely promised to those who receive baptism in Jesus' Name.

It is also promised to those who simply ask for the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:9-13).

The Scripture bear out that adding any work as a condition of salvation, cancels grace.

So, obviously, baptism must not be a work that is added as a condition of salvation. It must be a way that a man can gain the Holy Spirit from the getgo. Because baptism in Jesus' Name does not cancel grace, it provides access to it.

Saying that you said the Sinners Prayer when you were 12, will not fly at the Judgment. Saying that you are a Church Member in good standing will not fly at the Judgment. Saying that you got baptized the right way, with the right words will not fly either

What will fly if none of those things will?

What will you say to God on your day of judgment when He asks you, "Why should I let you into heaven?"

 

[justbyfaith]

It seems that you are misusing John 12:32. Consider what the context verse 33 have to say in relation to this statement. Also, are you trying to say by citing that scripture, that all men are drawn to the Son and so all men are quickened?

Yes, all men are quickened by the Son....they then have the choice of whether to wake up fully or whether to "go back to sleep."

 

[Candidus]

Water baptism is also not a work. Because it is clear from holy scripture (1 Peter 3:20-21 (kjv)) that it has the power to save. And salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

You have seen this discussed but refuse to see that 1 Peter 3:20-21 says that Baptism is mentioned only as a FIGURE, that is, a shadow, symbol, or picture of salvation. Baptism does not save; it declares salvation. It was as if God knew that this passage would be misused that He ended the verse with “(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.)” Water baptism does not put away the filth of the old carnal nature, but simply gives us a good conscience toward God.

 

[Candidus]

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins is also given as condition through which one might receive the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39). I believe that receiving the Holy Spirit is salvation.

Yes, receiving the Holy Spirit is salvation. That is what Acts 2:38 says.

One of the rules of Greek grammar, as it is in English, is that the verb agrees with its subject in person and number.

This is what is said in Acts 2:38:

Repent ye, ---------------------> 2nd person

ye shall receive ---------------> 2nd person

the gift of the Holy Spirit-----> object of 2nd person

All of you repent and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

every one of you --------------> 3rd person

be baptized --------------------> 3rd person

unto the remission of sins -----> object of third person

Every one of you (who just repented and received the Holy Spirit) be baptized because the remission of sins.

(This is implied by verse 41. “Then they that received his word were baptized.")

 

[Candidus]

So, obviously, baptism must not be a work that is added as a condition of salvation. It must be a way that a man can gain the Holy Spirit from the getgo. Because baptism in Jesus' Name does not cancel grace, it provides access to it.

Poor Jesus, He is too weak to save us apart from us getting wet and saving ourselves.