"Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Faith" - Has 500 Years Taught Us Nothing?

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brakelite

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If you want to talk about the Catechism of the Catholic Church how about if you QUOTE the Catechism????

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Mary
Great, thankyou. Did you read it? As a child, what version of the commandments were you taught? The full version or the "traditional catechism formula" as depicted in the right hand column? Did you own a full unabridged copy of the catechism as a child...or your parents...or the brief version as I had? The debate here is on the subject of changing the laws of God. What justification do you propose there is for the church removing the second commandment altogether and changing the 4th commandment from one day to another as per the council of Laodicea?

The Catholic Church claims responsibility for the change from seventh-day to first-day Sabbath. Here is an explanation from The Catechism of the Catholic Church Section 2 Article 3 (1994):

Sunday – fulfillment of the Sabbath. Sunday is expressly distinguished from the Sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the Sabbath...

The Sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ...

In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church’s holy days as legal holidays.


Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (Ayers Publishing, 1978): 108:

"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."

The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957): 50:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why Do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
 

Marymog

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Great, thankyou. Did you read it? As a child, what version of the commandments were you taught? The full version or the "traditional catechism formula" as depicted in the right hand column? Did you own a full unabridged copy of the catechism as a child...or your parents...or the brief version as I had? The debate here is on the subject of changing the laws of God. What justification do you propose there is for the church removing the second commandment altogether and changing the 4th commandment from one day to another as per the council of Laodicea?

The Catholic Church claims responsibility for the change from seventh-day to first-day Sabbath. Here is an explanation from The Catechism of the Catholic Church Section 2 Article 3 (1994):

Sunday – fulfillment of the Sabbath. Sunday is expressly distinguished from the Sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the Sabbath...

The Sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ...

In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church’s holy days as legal holidays.


Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (Ayers Publishing, 1978): 108:

"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."

The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957): 50:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why Do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
Thank you braklite.

Why are you asking me if I read it???? You CLEARLY didn't read the link I provided if you had you wouldn't be saying such ignorant things.

Your PARTIAL quote of the Catechism does not show that the CC claims responsibility for the change from seventh-day to first-day Sabbath.

You also partially quoted Cardinal Gibbons to support your theory. Do some research. Read what he said instead of what other Kool-Aide drinking anti-Catholics are saying and educate yourself. Get out of the Anti-Catholic box for 3 months and do some serious research on well respected websites and thru well respected books. If after three months you still believe all the garbage you post here then there is no help for you.

I know I am wasting my time telling you these things. You keep cutting and pasting and repeating the same lies over and over again. It gets BORING!!!! Repeating a lie does not eventually make it come true.....

Mary
 

Marymog

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Great, thankyou. Did you read it? As a child, what version of the commandments were you taught? The full version or the "traditional catechism formula" as depicted in the right hand column? Did you own a full unabridged copy of the catechism as a child...or your parents...or the brief version as I had? The debate here is on the subject of changing the laws of God. What justification do you propose there is for the church removing the second commandment altogether and changing the 4th commandment from one day to another as per the council of Laodicea?

The Catholic Church claims responsibility for the change from seventh-day to first-day Sabbath. Here is an explanation from The Catechism of the Catholic Church Section 2 Article 3 (1994):

Sunday – fulfillment of the Sabbath. Sunday is expressly distinguished from the Sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the Sabbath...

The Sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ...

In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church’s holy days as legal holidays.


Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (Ayers Publishing, 1978): 108:

"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."

The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957): 50:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why Do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
Simple question for ya' braklite: If the CC is wrong in everything they teach, who is right?

Curious Mary
 
B

brakelite

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Many have charged the CC with this for decades, but have been howled down as "haters" and "Bigots". Even those who came out of the CC, 'whistle-blowers' so to speak, were denounced as being deluded and having an axe to grind. Platitudinal excuses such as "you are exaggerating" …"typical 'anti-catholic'" rhetoric...spewing vile unwarranted rants...have been read and heard on these forums even from those Catholics among us who are blinded by their own egos and fear. Some even claim none of this could be true because "hell cannot prevail against the church" etc. or assertions that sexual immorality and such problems as abuse isn't confined to the CC, which is correct, but this one, is absolutely confined to the Catholic Church. And grave yards and burial sites throughout the world have yielded hundreds of individual and mass remains of aborted babies as a result of this. But such discoveries in the past have been ignored. Taking in the larger picture of recent and ongoing current reports of abuse within the CC, are we yet getting a true picture of the true nature of Catholicism? A true picture of the depth and insanity which passes for a Christian institution said to hold the keys to the kingdom? That Francis admits to this is itself telling in an atmosphere that traditionally has covered up and lied about everything. Good on him for being courageous enough to broach this terrible situation...however, I would suggest that whatever information is finally released as to the extent of this wickedness as a result of any inquiry, will be but the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
Pope admits priests kept nuns in sexual slavery
 
B

brakelite

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Simple question for ya' braklite: If the CC is wrong in everything they teach, who is right?

Curious Mary
If the CC is wrong in everything they believe in, (and I suggest that this is the case if one is willing to look a little deeper than the superficial linguistic gymnastics that comprise most of CC doctrine and dogma) then the answer to the above is an easy one. Who is right? Those who reject fully all of Catholic teaching and tradition (because there is nothing taught by Rome that isn't tainted by either paganism or tradition), and cleave to scripture as the basis for faith and practice. But then Mary, you have been told this before and then we end up ding the usual merry go round with the "who has the authority to tell what is true scripture" etc etc. Been there, done that. You need to get to know Jesus...then ask HIM and ignore your sinful and human priestly reasoning and seminarian propaganda. You have any questions Mary regarding truth, don't ask the saints or Mary or even me...ask JESUS. Then believe in and act on what He tells you.
 

Jay Ross

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Let me tell you a story that I was told a few years ago when I was interacting with some women searching for God.

In a third world country, some Hindu women were concerned about their father because he was very ill and dying. In the hospitable, they found a bible, and they read that Jesus could heal a person, so they prayed to the God of that bible to heal their father and after a day or two, he was healed. Realising the power of the God that they had prayed too, they sort out a church to learn more about this God and His Son.

But after they have been attending this church for a few months, they had a dream of being in a tree that was losing its leaves and the leaves were falling to the ground and they understood that if they remained within that tree they too would fall to the ground and be lost.

Immediately, they went in search of a new church in which they could learn about the things of God and found a new pastor of a church and joined the Bible Study group that he was leading near where they lived. God was drawing these women to himself and providing them with a person they could trust a tree that was not losing its leaves in which they could grow into understanding.

The tree they initially found were the SDA's. The Tree they then went to was a spirit filled pastor who had by then learned to walk with the Lord and to follow His prompting in all things.

I do not know the outcome for those women, but I do know that the Lord helped them to come out of a dying church.

Shalom
 

BreadOfLife

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Absolutely.

As for YOUR assertion that the Catholic Church teaches a "different" set of Commandments - it's because Brakelite wallows in the same ignorance as his false prophetess founder, Ellen G. White - while YOU are comfortable wallowing in your own.

Would either of you care to elaborate on what the "differences" are? I've pretty much heard them all.
I will respond in kind with a Bible and linguistics lesson that will SINK your arguments . . .
I see that neither @Phoneman NOR @Brakelight were able to make a case regarding their fictitious "different list" of Commandments.
That's what I thought . . .
 

Marymog

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The sentence should read "If the CC is wrong in everything they teach, what I am doing trying to support it?"
Hi Enoch. I see you want to troll this conversation instead of engage in it. How about a different question for you:

Is there anything the CC teaches that you AGREE with? Anything they got right?

Curious Mary
 

Marymog

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If the CC is wrong in everything they believe in, (and I suggest that this is the case if one is willing to look a little deeper than the superficial linguistic gymnastics that comprise most of CC doctrine and dogma) then the answer to the above is an easy one. Who is right? Those who reject fully all of Catholic teaching and tradition (because there is nothing taught by Rome that isn't tainted by either paganism or tradition), and cleave to scripture as the basis for faith and practice. But then Mary, you have been told this before and then we end up ding the usual merry go round with the "who has the authority to tell what is true scripture" etc etc. Been there, done that. You need to get to know Jesus...then ask HIM and ignore your sinful and human priestly reasoning and seminarian propaganda. You have any questions Mary regarding truth, don't ask the saints or Mary or even me...ask JESUS. Then believe in and act on what He tells you.
Thank you brakelite.

True....I always ask you who has the authority. You can’t seem to articulate a logical answer based on Scripture soooooo I should move on.

Is there ANY teaching of the CC that you agree with? The Trinity? Baptism saves/not a symbol etc etc??

Mary
 

Enoch111

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Is there anything the CC teaches that you AGREE with? Anything they got right?
The CC has never denied the deity of Christ, the Holy Trinity, the existence of sin, or the necessity of salvation.

However, it has failed to uphold the Bible doctrines which are stated in the Five Solas of the Reformation (along with many others). Indeed the Counter Reformation by the Jesuits led to the Council of Trent, which vehemently OPPOSED Gospel truth. When any church opposes Bible truth and Gospel truth, it is time to abandon it since all false gospels are under a curse.
 

Marymog

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The CC has never denied the deity of Christ, the Holy Trinity, the existence of sin, or the necessity of salvation.

However, it has failed to uphold the Bible doctrines which are stated in the Five Solas of the Reformation (along with many others). Indeed the Counter Reformation by the Jesuits led to the Council of Trent, which vehemently OPPOSED Gospel truth. When any church opposes Bible truth and Gospel truth, it is time to abandon it since all false gospels are under a curse.
Thank you Enoch.

Who decides what is "Gospel truth"? The men of the Reformation?

The CC and many other churches (denominations) have "failed to uphold......the Five Solas of the Reformation" so, according to your theory, we can count those denominations out as being right on anything when it comes to doctrine.

Your criteria for being the right church seems to be (at a minimum):

Never deny the deity of Christ
Never deny the Holy Trinity
Never deny the existence of sin
Never deny the necessity of salvation
Uphold the Bible doctrines which are stated in the Five Solas of the Reformation

Which church meets your criteria?

Mary
 

mjrhealth

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Hi Phoneman,

You twist scripture and add words to it. NOW you are twisting and adding to your own words.

Here is what you asked: Marymog, is the catholic church teaching the faithful to obey the Ten Commandments as they were written by the finger of God, or does the catholic church claim the power to make up their own?

As you can plainly see you DID NOT originally mention Exodus 20 so my VERY CLEAR answer to your question stays the same: Yes, the CC teaches to obey the 10 Commandments.

Mary
wow mother and daughter at it again.
 

Enoch111

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Who decides what is "Gospel truth"? The men of the Reformation?
God decides what is Gospel truth and all who read and study the Bible can see it there quite plainly. The focus of the Gospel is Christ and His FINISHED work of redemption.

The Reformers understood many things correctly, but also misunderstood many things. But each and every person has access to the Bible and can ask God to show them the truth from Scripture.
 

Marymog

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If the CC is wrong in everything they believe in, (and I suggest that this is the case if one is willing to look a little deeper than the superficial linguistic gymnastics that comprise most of CC doctrine and dogma) then the answer to the above is an easy one. Who is right? Those who reject fully all of Catholic teaching and tradition (because there is nothing taught by Rome that isn't tainted by either paganism or tradition), and cleave to scripture as the basis for faith and practice. But then Mary, you have been told this before and then we end up ding the usual merry go round with the "who has the authority to tell what is true scripture" etc etc. Been there, done that. You need to get to know Jesus...then ask HIM and ignore your sinful and human priestly reasoning and seminarian propaganda. You have any questions Mary regarding truth, don't ask the saints or Mary or even me...ask JESUS. Then believe in and act on what He tells you.
Fascinating.

According to your theory if one fully rejects all Catholic teaching and all Catholic tradition then that person will have the truth!!!

Since scripture does not list a table of contents for the bible that means man put that table of contents together. To whom do you attribute doing that?

Some books of the NT are not claimed in the letter. By tradition we believe we know who wrote them. To whom do you attribute that tradition if not the CC?

Since all Protestant Churches have some "Catholic teachings" in their doctrine we can eliminate all Protestant Churches.

mary
 

Marymog

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God decides what is Gospel truth and all who read and study the Bible can see it there quite plainly. The focus of the Gospel is Christ and His FINISHED work of redemption.

The Reformers understood many things correctly, but also misunderstood many things. But each and every person has access to the Bible and can ask God to show them the truth from Scripture.
Enoch, Enoch Enoch

According to your theory "all who read and study the Bible can see it (the Truth) there quite plainly". So I ask you Enoch: Did Joseph Smith, Fred Phelps and David Koresh see it quite plainly??? How is it that the men of the CC can not see the Gospel Truth but those three men can??? How is it that the Reformers understood many things correctly, but also misunderstood many things?? After all, they all read and studied the bible.....Why are they wrong and you right????

How have you come to this conclusion??? The only way you could know all of this is if you know all Truth. Do you know all Truth???

Mary
 

Enoch111

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How have you come to this conclusion??? The only way you could know all of this is if you know all Truth. Do you know all Truth???
Mary, you should be more alarmed at the shenanigans of your Pope, who has now become officially the forerunner of the Antichrist. Check my thread is Eschatology. It is truly shocking and all good Catholics should abandon the RCC.
 

Marymog

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Mary, you should be more alarmed at the shenanigans of your Pope, who has now become officially the forerunner of the Antichrist. Check my thread is Eschatology. It is truly shocking and all good Catholics should abandon the RCC.
Enoch, Enoch, Enoch

According to Scripture the anti-Christ will deny Jesus. The popes for the last 2,000 years have not done that sooooo back to the drawing board on your theory.

CARE TO ADDRESS THIS PARAGRAPH INSTEAD OF DELETING IT: According to your theory "all who read and study the Bible can see it (the Truth) there quite plainly". So I ask you Enoch: Did Joseph Smith, Fred Phelps and David Koresh see it quite plainly??? How is it that the men of the CC can not see the Gospel Truth but those three men can??? How is it that the Reformers understood many things correctly, but also misunderstood many things?? After all, they all read and studied the bible.....Why are they wrong and you right????
 
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brakelite

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According to Scripture the anti-Christ will deny Jesus. The popes for the last 2,000 years have not done that sooooo back to the drawing board on your theory.
According to Catholicism the Pope is the head of the church. Scriptures say Jesus is the Head of the church. Sooooo for the last 1400 years by usurping the authority of Christ the Popes have done precisely that...denied Jesus, and the Father.
 
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