Judgement Seat of Christ for who ?

[rwb]

It's also known as Word of Faith movement.
God manifests in his faithful prosperity. Both monetarily,and materially, and physically.

No, I don't believe a born again believer should do good to gain reward! I believe in this life born again believers are rewarded with blessings from God because our goal is to spiritually build the Kingdom of God by proclaiming the Gospel of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You said...There's no condemnation at the GWT for believers, but they will bow down to Christ at that time and give an account of themselves in relation to how they treated the least of these, just as is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. Post 55

Yes, I did. Do you agree disagree with that?

You said.....Every believer will receive the reward of eternal life in the kingdom of God prepared from the foundation of the world post 88

Right. Do you agree or disagree with that? Keep in mind I'm talking about true believers who are saved there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It takes more than believing Yeshua exist to be saved and go to Heaven.

I never said otherwise. Even the demons believe and shudder (James 2:19), so just believing He exists is not saving faith. Paul said that one must confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead in order to be saved (Romans 10:9).

You seem to misunderstand a lot of what I'm saying, so I ask that you please read what I'm saying more carefully.

A Christian can sin their way to Hell.

I do believe that a Christian can fall away because scripture teaches that many times, but I'm not sure what you mean by a Christian sinning their way to hell exactly. Can you explain what you mean by that exactly?

 

[Gray_Joy]

I never said otherwise. For some reason you are having a hard time understanding what I'm saying.

I do believe that a Christian can fall away because scripture teaches that many times, but I'm not sure what you mean by a Christian sinning their way to hell exactly. Can you explain what you mean by that exactly?

You'll find it to be Armenian or Wesleyan theology teaches the born again can sin their way back into damnation.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Thank you. That's ,what you explain, as I believe also.

This is why I sought clarification from @PeterAndroz as to his posting.

edit for clarification

"""""""Paul taught a different gospel where only faith is required.
To be saved & sealed that's EXACTLY what Paul taught :-
So what part confuses you ?
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, I did. Do you agree disagree with that?

I have already responded to this.
It take more than believing Yeshua exists to be saved and go to Heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You'll find it to be Armenian or Wesleyan theology teaches the born again can sin their way back into damnation.

I'm asking what that means exactly. Do they think if someone sins a certain amount after being born again then they are condemned or if they commit certain sins they are condemned or something like that? Salvation is by grace through faith and is not by good works, so if we're not saved by good works then that means bad works/sins can't cause someone to lose salvation unless their bad works/sins reflect that they have lost their faith.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have already responded to this.
It take more than believing Yeshua exists to be saved and go to Heaven.

I never said otherwise. Do you understand that? You seem to have trouble understanding what people are saying for some reason.

 

[Grailhunter]

I never said otherwise. Even the demons believe and shudder (James 2:19), so just believing He exists is not saving faith. Paul said that one must confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead in order to be saved (Romans 10:9).

You seem to misunderstand a lot of what I'm saying, so I ask that you please read what I'm saying more carefully.

Reading through the post a lot of people have misunderstood what you say.

 

[Gray_Joy]

"""""""Paul taught a different gospel where only faith is required.
To be saved & sealed that's EXACTLY what Paul taught :-
So what part confuses you ?
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

What in my posts leads you to believe I'm confused?

 

[PeterAndroz]

I don't think the Apostles or Jesus ever taught salvation by works.
Or,am I misunderstanding that as what you are saying there?

To be saved, why are works required in Matt 25 :-
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Reading through the post a lot of people have misunderstood what you say.

Which post are you talking about? My post #2 in this thread? I know that you misunderstood what I said in that post because you quoted only one thing from it, which, by itself, gave the impression that I believed a certain thing, but the rest of my post showed what I really believe. It can look like someone believes something entirely different than what they actually believe if you don't read everything they're saying.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, I did. Do you agree disagree with that?


Right. Do you agree or disagree with that? Keep in mind I'm talking about true believers who are saved there.

It takes more that belief.

 

[Grailhunter]

I never said otherwise. Do you understand that? You seem to have trouble understanding what people are saying for some reason.

Just you.

Which post are you talking about? My post #2 in this thread? I know that you misunderstood what I said in that post because you quoted only one thing from it, which, by itself, gave the impression that I believed a certain thing, but the rest of my post showed what I really believe. It can look like someone believes something entirely different than what they actually believe if you don't read everything they're saying.

That is good.

 

[PeterAndroz]

What in my posts leads you to believe I'm confused?

You believe the 12 taught the same Gospel as Paul.
Paul - To be saved, are works required in the Gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 ?
Mat - To be saved, are works required in Matt 25:-
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It takes more that belief.

I would agree if you mean that repentance is also required. Repentance and faith go hand in hand. But, can you explain what you mean by that exactly? What do you think is required for someone to be saved?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Goodness sakes. You are terribly mistaken. You apparently don't even know what faith is. For one thing, repentance and faith go hand in hand and that has always been the case. You can't put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ without repenting of your sins and acknowledging Him as Lord and as your Savior from the wages of sin. Water baptism has NEVER been required for salvation. It's something you do after being saved. Read Acts 10:42-47. The Gentiles Peter preached to were baptized with water after believing and receiving the Holy Spirit (after being saved).


Nonsense.

For goodness sakes si, learn how to understand who & what applies to how to be saved today.
..
Who did Christ select as the Apostle & Minister to the Gentiles ?
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, ...
Rom 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles...
Rom 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God...
+++
The other Apostles agreed & knew who taught who
Gal 2:2
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,....
Gal 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
++++
What is the role of an Apostle/Minister ?
To teach THEIR audience.
BUT NOW there are NO SEPARATE audiences ALL are equal :-
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
++++
How are believers 'today' saved, sealed, justified, made righteous ?
By the SAVING Gospel that applies today.
Gal 1:11-12
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
++++
The PERFORMANCE conditions :-
Titus 3:
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
++++
Your 'deeds'/works/behavior/performance only decide your eternal rewards/loss
Rom 14:10
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
1 Cor 3:10-15
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
..

 

[Gray_Joy]

I'm asking what that means exactly. Do they think if someone sins a certain amount after being born again then they are condemned or if they commit certain sins they are condemned or something like that? Salvation is by grace through faith and is not by good works, so if we're not saved by good works then that means bad works/sins can't cause someone to lose salvation unless their bad works/sins reflect that they have lost their faith.

For a personal conviction in that regard,I think you have to ask someone who defends that belief.

I do not hold to the ideology.

For me,it is a misunderstanding and contradiction of God's message.

For example,some I've encountered who believe the born again sinner can become unregenerate and damned again will refer to the parable of the vine in John 15.

And also the parable of endurance in Matthew 24.

They will sometimes refer to Matthew 18. The parable of the unforgiving servant to insist it is a reflection of God's retracting his Salvific gift if we fail to behave in uncharitable fashion toward others. Being we were saved by the charity implicit in God's grace.

For me the doctrine that renounces Christ's foretold gift of eternal Salvation is either born of the innocent incapacity of clergy or lay persons to understand God's word, due to the reason God outlines in his teachings.
Or, it is born from another motive the likes of which I prefer not to speculate upon.

We know the adversary is always at work.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

For goodness sakes si, learn how to understand who & what applies to how to be saved today.

You are horribly mistaken. There is only one gospel and there has always only been one gospel. There has never been any way to be saved except through faith and not by works.

..
Who did Christ select as the Apostle & Minister to the Gentiles ?
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, ...
Rom 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles...
Rom 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God...
+++
The other Apostles agreed & knew who taught who
Gal 2:2
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,....
Gal 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Okay, now I see what causes your false belief. Galatians 2:7 is not talking about two different gospels.

Here is a better translation of that verse...

Galatians 2:7 (NIV) On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.

This translation of the verse more accurately reflects what Paul was saying here. All he was saying is that he had been assigned the task of preaching the one gospel to the uncircumcised (Gentiles) while Peter had been assigned the task of preaching the one gospel to the circumcised (Jews).

Read this...

Acts 15:7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Notice that Peter made it clear that Jews and Gentiles are saved the same way, by grace and faith.

Read this...

Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Paul made it very clear that if anyone preached any other gospel than the one he preached, then they should be cursed. So, there is only one gospel by which people can be saved.

 

[Grailhunter]

I would agree if you mean that repentance is also required. Repentance and faith go hand in hand. But, can you explain what you mean by that exactly? What do you think is required for someone to be saved?

Besides the obvious....
Do I have to make a list.
Acts 2:38
Participate in the Bread and Wine Ritual.
Love God and one another.
Help one another.
Be good and do good.