Just Be Ready, or Watch?

[Davy]

Those of you on the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory might hate me for this, but I hope you listen to what I have to say.

I'm well aware of what the Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches about Lord Jesus' future coming. So no need to go into all that. I'm also aware that the Pre-trib Rapture theory does NOT teach to be watching all those Signs Lord Jesus gave in His discourse while upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21). I have actually been to Pre-trib Rapture churches, and have never heard those Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse preached. For your benefit, I will list the actual 7 Signs Jesus gave there.

1. let no man deceive you, and the coming of 'many' antichrists -- parallels the 1st Seal of Rev.6
2. hear of wars and rumors of wars, but the end is not yet; nation against nation -- 2nd Seal of Rev.6.
3. famines, pestilences, earthquakes -- 3rd Seal of Rev.6.
4. more nation against nation, beginning of sorrows -- 4th Seal of Rev.6.
5. delivered up to give a Testimony for Christ -- 5th Seal of Rev.6.
6. placing of the "abomination of desolation" IDOL in a temple in Jerusalem by false-Messiah, time of great tribulation -- first part of 6th Seal of Rev.6.
7. Jesus' coming to gather His Church, and pour out His cup of wrath upon the wicked -- second part of the 6th Seal of Rev.6.

Now right after Lord Jesus gave that final 7th Sign of His future coming to gather His Church, He then began giving the parable of the fig tree where He showed ALL... those above 7 Signs are for the very end of this world, leading up to His future return. So in the Scripture past describing His coming, He was giving us additional info about the 'end', but not any new Sign like those previous 7 Signs.

When Jesus later said no man knows the day or hour of His coming, but The Father only, that's not a new Sign. It's just addition info.

When Jesus later gave His parable of the fig tree, that was not a new Sign, simply because anyone should be able to figure out that when He comes AFTER... the tribulation like He said, that means ALL... of those 7 Signs He gave must be completed, His coming being the last 7th Sign. That's the actual Message about the parable of the fig tree, that generation will not pass until all those things (SIGNS) have come to pass. It means the final generation that will SEE Christ's future coming, because His future return is... the final 7th Sign He gave.

What I'm trying to do, is to show what SIGNS He gave we are to actually be watching, and not just seeing His later warnings as actual SIGNS (which some wrongly preach).

Then two in the field, one taken, and the other left. At the end of Luke 17, Lord Jesus revealed the 1st one 'taken' is actually as a dead 'carcase' to where the fowls are that eat dead flesh. The Matthew 24:28 verse is a parallel description of this. It's about the deceived who do NOT remain steadfast waiting for Lord Jesus to come AFTER the great tribulation. Lord Jesus actual comes to end... the "great tribulation" and gather His faithful Church. He won't be gathering those who refused to wait for Him, and fell away to the pseudo-Christ that comes first that is going to 'play' Messiah in Jerusalem.

"Therefore be ye also ready:...". Lord Jesus said that to those who will be WATCHING those SIGNS He gave leading up to His coming. That is HOW we are to be 'ready'. This means one MUST FIRST recognize those 7 SIGNS He gave His Church. We cannot be 'ready' just saying we believe Lord Jesus is coming to gather us. We are to know the ORDER OF EVENTS leading up to His coming to gather us! That's the difference.

This is why Lord Jesus later COMMANDS us to WATCH. Well, watch what? Watching those 7 SIGNS He gave us so we won't be deceived!

The greatest deception in world history is coming to Jerusalem for the end, and Lord Jesus warned specifically about that in His Olivet discourse. It's about a pseudo-Christ coming to play Him in Jerusalem, working great signs and wonders that IF possible, would deceive even His very elect (see Matthew 24:23-26). To put it bluntly, GOD is going to test us at the end, to see if we will remain faithful waiting on His Son Jesus Christ. He first is sending a FAKE Christ that claim to be Lord Jesus, and he is going to work miracles to trick you into believing it! That is the strong delusion that is coming to this earth in our near future which Apostle Paul was warning the Church about. And this is seldom preached in today's Churches, thus many are missing a major warning by Lord Jesus to His Church.

 

[marks]

Just Be Ready, or Watch?​

False dichotomy.

We do both. Yes, pre-tribbers.

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

The only thing to be ready and accepting of is death, in my humble opinion.

Then one goes on, judged, giving their reward - be it a corrupted heavenly body that lives outside the kingdom of God, or the eternal life heavenly body, that goes onward into the Kingdom of the Heavenly Jerusalem where God resides.

In a contextual reasoning of scripture - those people in that day and age were waiting and watching, for the Lord to come, and its hard to disagree when one goes and does a study of those things, also co-responding with history (Josephus, Suetonius, Cassio Dio, Tactius).

YLT Search Results (Watch, Wait)​

40 Verses Found, 41 Matches​

Mat 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went away to them, walking upon the sea,

Mat 24:42 'Watch ye therefore, because ye have not known in what hour your Lord doth come;

Mat 24:43 and this know, that if the master of the house had known in what watch the thief doth come, he had watched, and not suffered his house to be broken through;

Mat 25:13 'Watch therefore, for ye have not known the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man doth come.

Mat 26:38 then saith he to them, 'Exceedingly sorrowful is my soul—unto death; abide ye here, and watch with me.'

Mat 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them sleeping, and he saith to Peter, 'So! ye were not able one hour to watch with me!

Mat 26:41 watch, and pray, that ye may not enter into temptation: the spirit indeed is forward, but the flesh weak.'

Mat 27:65 And Pilate said to them, 'Ye have a watch, go away, make secure—as ye have known;'

Mat 27:66 and they, having gone, did make the sepulchre secure, having sealed the stone, together with the watch.

Mat 28:11 And while they are going on, lo, certain of the watch having come to the city, told to the chief priests all the things that happened,

Mar 3:9 And he said to his disciples that a little boat may wait on him, because of the multitude, that they may not press upon him,

Mar 6:20 for Herod was fearing John, knowing him a man righteous and holy, and was keeping watch over him, and having heard him, was doing many things, and hearing him gladly.

Mar 6:48 and he saw them harassed in the rowing, for the wind was against them, and about the fourth watch of the night he doth come to them walking on the sea, and wished to pass by them.

Mar 13:33 Take heed, watch and pray, for ye have not known when the time is;

Mar 13:34 as a man who is gone abroad, having left his house, and given to his servants the authority, and to each one his work, did command also the porter that he may watch;

Mar 13:35 watch ye, therefore, for ye have not known when the lord of the house doth come, at even, or at midnight, or at cock-crowing, or at the morning;

Mar 13:37 and what I say to you, I say to all, Watch.'

Mar 14:34 and he saith to them, 'Exceeding sorrowful is my soul—to death; remain here, and watch.'

Mar 14:37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith to Peter, 'Simon, thou dost sleep! thou wast not able to watch one hour!

Mar 14:38 Watch ye and pray, that ye may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is forward, but the flesh weak.'

Luk 11:54 laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

Luk 12:38 and if he may come in the second watch, and in the third watch he may come, and may find it so, happy are those servants.

Luk 20:20 And, having watched him , they sent forth liers in wait, feigning themselves to be righteous, that they might take hold of his word, to deliver him up to the rule and to the authority of the governor,

Luk 21:36 watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.'

Act 1:4 And being assembled together with them, he commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, 'Ye did hear of me;

Act 20:31 'Therefore, watch, remembering that three years, night and day, I did not cease with tears warning each one;

Act 23:16 And the son of Paul's sister having heard of the lying in wait, having gone and entered into the castle, told Paul,

Act 23:21 thou, therefore, mayest thou not yield to them, for there lie in wait for him of them more than forty men, who did anathematize themselves—not to eat nor to drink till they kill him, and now they are ready, waiting for the promise from thee.'

Act 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

1Co 11:33 so then, my brethren, coming together to eat, for one another wait ye;

1Co 16:13 Watch ye, stand in the faith; be men, be strong;

Gal 5:5 for we by the Spirit, by faith, a hope of righteousness do wait for,

1Th 1:10 and to wait for His Son from the heavens, whom He did raise out of the dead—Jesus, who is rescuing us from the anger that is coming.

1Th 5:6 so, then, we may not sleep as also the others, but watch and be sober,

2Ti 4:5 And thou—watch in all things; suffer evil; do the work of one proclaiming good news; of thy ministration make full assurance,

Heb 13:17 Be obedient to those leading you, and be subject, for these do watch for your souls, as about to give account, that with joy they may do this, and not sighing, for this is unprofitable to you.

1Pe 3:20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah—an ark being preparing—in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;

1Pe 4:7 And of all things the end hath come nigh; be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the prayers,

2Pe 3:13 and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell;

Rev 3:3 'Remember, then, how thou hast received, and heard, and be keeping, and reform: if, then, thou mayest not watch, I will come upon thee as a thief, and thou mayest not know what hour I will come upon thee.

May the God of Peace be with you.

 

[Davy]

False dichotomy.

We do both. Yes, pre-tribbers.

Much love!

Only partially.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory school dwells upon the 'wars and rumors of wars', and kingdom against kingdom, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, but NOT... the actual time of "great tribulation" to show that Christ's Church will go through it.

They 'use' the events under the "beginning of sorrows" (like I mentioned above) and stress that is how the "great tribulation" is going to be, but not to worry, because they say, we, the Church, will escape the worst of it before the great trib, being raptured before all the really bad stuff happens.

Sorry marks, but that kind of teaching of Christ's Olivet discourse is not authentic, because Jesus showed His coming is not until AFTER... that tribulation to gather His saints (Matthew 24:29-31).

Furthermore, Jesus' warning that we'd hear of 'wars and rumors of war' is all of that verse I've ever heard in a Pre-trib Rapture church. Jesus said more with that which reveals His real Message about that...

Matt 24:6
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
KJV

Jesus told us to NOT be troubled when we hear of wars and rumors of war, because... as long as wars are going on, the 'end' is not yet. What 'end'? The time of great tribulation at the end of this world. So that means what 'kind' of time will the "great tribulation" time actually be?

The "great tribulation" time at the 'end' leading up to Christ's return will be a time of world peace, all wars having stopped. That is exactly the OPPOSITE kind of event the Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches. They instead preach all out war and chaos during the great trib.

The Daniel 8 Scripture reveals the false one (Antichrist) to come will enter using peace, and by peace will destroy many. And craft is to prosper by his hand it says. Chicken in every pot is how the great trib will be, that is, for those who accept him in place of Jesus Christ. And that Antichrist is coming to play The Christ, for that is one of the main warnings Jesus gave in that Olivet discourse which the Pre-trib Rapture theory does NOT teach.

Nor does the Pre-trib Rapture theory teach what Jesus said in the Mark 13 version of His Olivet discourse about some of us being delivered up to councils and synagogues to give a TESTIMONY for Jesus, and Jesus commanded that we speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to speak in that hour. They don't teach about that either, since they instead teach we are already gone and out of here before the tribulation.

So let's be honest, am I really... showing a "false dichotomy" like you claim?

 

[marks]

The Pre-trib Rapture theory school dwells upon the 'wars and rumors of wars', and kingdom against kingdom, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, but NOT... the actual time of "great tribulation" to show that Christ's Church will go through it.

You realize you are attempting to speak for me - a pre-tribber - contrary to how I present myself, so you are basically telling me I'm either wrong about myself or I'm lying about myself.

Shall I give my personal defense to you? Nah.

But do you want to have a polite and orderly debate over whether the Church will enter the time of great tribulation? I'd insist on polite and orderly and in good fashion. It's a separate matter.

Is my watching and waiting somehow diminished because I understand God's plan for the Body of Christ? Because I see the dispensations of the Bible? Does that make me less the student? Less honest? I know you think I'm wrong, but I think you are wrong, so there! That doesn't have to mean anything other than that I've expressed an opinion.

Right? Let me know.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Furthermore, Jesus' warning that we'd hear of 'wars and rumors of war' is all of that verse I've ever heard in a Pre-trib Rapture church.

Maybe you don't get around much . . . As a dispensations pre-tribber moving in circles including many of the same, I assure you, we aren't all that shallow as that!

Much love!

 

[marks]

So let's be honest, am I really... showing a "false dichotomy" like you claim?

Yes, you are.

Shall I give my history of watching? Javier Solana, do you know all the various ways he came maybe within 95% of fulfilling prophecies identifying the Beast? Depending of course on your eschatological view, whether Euro-centric or Islamo-centric. Just for one off the cuff example.

You have no idea about me yet you make such declarations.

Let's be honest?

Yes. Let's do!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sorry marks, but that kind of teaching of Christ's Olivet discourse is not authentic, because Jesus showed His coming is not until AFTER... that tribulation to gather His saints (Matthew 24:29-31).

We could start with this.

I put this on it's own thread.

The gathering when Jesus comes cannot include the current day Church, that is, IF you believe the exact words of Jesus' prophecy.

Simply stated, Jesus said that when He comes, He will send His angels gather the Chosen. Then, after He sits on His throne, the Nations will be gathered before Him, and He will judge them, separating them left and right, based on their treatment of Jesus' brothers, the Jews.

The church will not fit either group no matter how hard you try without creating conflict with the other group.

There are a few ways people attempt to address this, rather than list them all, what is yours? I'll just answer that one.

Maybe as I have time I can go through the different ways.

Most commonly I see a complete denial of the prophecy, as though it were a parable, or the later judgement at the great white throne.

Now, if you gathered the nations of the earth together, and asked a Jew of Jesus' time to point to the "Chosen", and point to the "Nations", I'm pretty certain that Jew would point to Israel, and say, "Chosen", and point to the rest, and say Goyim.

So going with the "historical grammatical" hermenuetic, that's our understanding. And it sure fits the passage!

And interestingly, the "sheep" are judged according to their works whether they are righteous.

Anyway, that would be my question to you. Do you find the church to be part of the gathered chosen, or the gathered nations?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Those of you on the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory might hate me for this, but I hope you listen to what I have to say.

And furthermore . . . It may seem like a tautology, but sometimes I feel this is overlooked.

Any argument that the church isn't exempt from tribulation is empty, because my mother, who was born again, I believe, since I believe God told me that, is gone. She passed away some years ago, and alas!! No great tribulation!

So something I learn from that is that Christians are not somehow incomplete without going through this one very short time in history which is actually described as being for a certain purpose that is not related to the maturing of those in Christ.

We all go through tribulation, make no mistake. And being skinned alive as happens today in India because you are a Christian, don't try to convince me that's somehow less tribulation.

Why the mark of the beast? Final Answer time.

Why the Great Tribulation? Satan is angry, and God uses the pressure placed on humanity by evil to turn men to Himself. Humanity is so far gone, they don't repent. But Israel will repent, and some of the nations will still be saved. If they endure to the end when He comes to rescue them.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

You realize you are attempting to speak for me - a pre-tribber - contrary to how I present myself, so you are basically telling me I'm either wrong about myself or I'm lying about myself.

What 'you' choose to believe is your own... responsibility. So if you're trying to push that responsibility off on me, understand that will not work.

Shall I give my personal defense to you? Nah.

But do you want to have a polite and orderly debate over whether the Church will enter the time of great tribulation? I'd insist on polite and orderly and in good fashion. It's a separate matter.

Is my watching and waiting somehow diminished because I understand God's plan for the Body of Christ? Because I see the dispensations of the Bible? Does that make me less the student? Less honest? I know you think I'm wrong, but I think you are wrong, so there! That doesn't have to mean anything other than that I've expressed an opinion.

Right? Let me know.

Much love!

I revealed what the Pre-trib Rapture school actually teaches. I did not attack you personally.

And we are... having a polite and orderly debate, at least I am, because to have that would never... mean me agreeing with your view just to please you. I know what the Pre-trib Rapture school teaches, and you were not the original author of those doctrines.

Now if you 'think' you can defend... their Pre-trib Rapture doctrine, then go ahead, but only a new thread. I'm game if that is what you want.

 

[Davy]

Yes, you are.

Shall I give my history of watching? Javier Solana, do you know all the various ways he came maybe within 95% of fulfilling prophecies identifying the Beast? Depending of course on your eschatological view, whether Euro-centric or Islamo-centric. Just for one off the cuff example.

You have no idea about me yet you make such declarations.

Let's be honest?

Yes. Let's do!

Much love!

You are only feeling defensive because I showed how the Pre-trib Rapture school teaches Christ's Olivet discourse Signs. And you well know their whole 'dichotomy' (since you like that word) is about being RAPTURED to Heaven by Jesus PRIOR to the start of the "great tribulation". So are you trying to tell me I am wrong on that?

 

[marks]

What 'you' choose to believe is your own... responsibility. So if you're trying to push that responsibility off on me, understand that will not work.

This isn't going to work.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are only feeling defensive

Not you!

Oy vey!

Much love!

 

[marks]

So are you trying to tell me I am wrong on that?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. In fact. I'm versed on the signs, not just Matthew, and I watch. I have for the greater part of my life. And I've been in numerous churches that do teach and do the same. Maybe you haven't, I guess it's a big wide world.

Anyway, that's how I answer your question, thank you for asking!

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Yes, you are.

Shall I give my history of watching? Javier Solana, do you know all the various ways he came maybe within 95% of fulfilling prophecies identifying the Beast? Depending of course on your eschatological view, whether Euro-centric or Islamo-centric. Just for one off the cuff example.

You have no idea about me yet you make such declarations.

Let's be honest?

Yes. Let's do!

Much love!

I've been around plenty, and I can assure you per God's Word, the coming pseudo-Christ that Jesus warned that is coming to work great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world, is NOT going to be an Islamic fellow, nor a pope from Europe. Those doctrines are ONLY designed to get you OFF TRACK from what God's Word reveals. The coming false-Messiah is going to be 'claimed' of JEWISH descent, otherwise the deceived orthodox Jews in Jerusalem would NEVER accept him as The Messiah of The Bible. Even some of the early Church fathers, (like Hippolytus), understood the final Antichrist must be setup from Judah (Jews). That will be the claim by the orthodox Jews anyway, but in reality it will be Satan himself.

 

[Davy]

We could start with this. The gathering when Jesus comes cannot include the current day Church, that is, IF you believe the exact words of Jesus' prophecy.

Simply stated, Jesus said that when He comes, He will send His angels gather the Chosen. Then, after He sits on His throne, the Nations will be gathered before Him, and He will judge them, separating them left and right, based on their treatment of Jesus' brothers, the Jews.

The church will not fit either group no matter how hard you try without creating conflict with the other group.

There are a few ways people attempt to address this, rather than list them all, what is yours? I'll just answer that one.

Maybe as I have time I can go through the different ways.

Most commonly I see a complete denial of the prophecy, as though it were a parable, or the later judgement at the great white throne.

Now, if you gathered the nations of the earth together, and asked a Jew of Jesus' time to point to the "Chosen", and point to the "Nations", I'm pretty certain that Jew would point to Israel, and say, "Chosen", and point to the rest, and say Goyim.

So going with the "historical grammatical" hermenuetic, that's our understanding. And it sure fits the passage!

And interestingly, the "sheep" are judged according to their works whether they are righteous.

Anyway, that would be my question to you. Do you find the church to be part of the gathered chosen, or the gathered nations?

Much love!

Start a new thread. Let's not take over this one, as we have done enough here already.

 

[marks]

Start a new thread. Let's not take over this one, as we have done enough here already.

Already done, tagged you on it.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. In fact. I'm versed on the signs, not just Matthew, and I watch. I have for the greater part of my life. And I've been in numerous churches that do teach and do the same. Maybe you haven't, I guess it's a big wide world.

You mean you're saying I am wrong that the Pre-trib Rapture school does NOT... preach being raptured out PRIOR to the "great tribulation"?

 

[marks]

You mean you're saying I am wrong that the Pre-trib Rapture school does NOT... preach being raptured out PRIOR to the "great tribulation"?

Just Be Ready, or Watch?​

We do both.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

We do both.

Much love!

I have to disagree, because the MAIN doctrine of the Pre-trib Rapture theory is the false idea of being 'raptured' by Jesus PRIOR to the start of the "great tribulation". And that... is the specific doctrine that I asked you if you think I am wrong about.