dragonfly, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
Just heard about the rosary....
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dragonfly, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
Hi neophyte,
It's not prayers of the saints in heaven (who are asleep in Jesus) but the saints on earth who are praying to God.
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men
1 Timothy 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian [band], 2 [A] devout [man], and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.
This is saints on earth being encouraged to pray for one another.
Philipp 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
There are many other verses where saints on earth pray to God.
In the New Testament we see time and time again that Jesus points to the Father and the Holy Spirit draws our attention to Jesus Christ. Absolutely nothing in the Scriptures draw us to Mary for life, or guidance, or comfort, or peace or deliverance. So, if neither one of the Trinity are causing Christians to focus on Mary, then WHO is causing many Catholics to focus on Mary?
I will give you a hint: Anything that diminishes Jesus Christ, or takes away from Him or replaces Him is not of God. First rule of discernment is "Where is Jesus Christ in all of this?"
Axehead
I will give you a hint: Anything that diminishes Jesus Christ, or takes away from Him or replaces Him is not of God. First rule of discernment is "Where is Jesus Christ in all of this?"
Axehead
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Mary points to Christ. You are asking why Catholics follow directions to Christ - we do so because we see Christ in each other. Mary is part of the body, just like us.
The Saints in heaven are offering the prayers of the saints on earth.
We are all part of the body of Christ, those on earth and those in heaven. Just as we want the prayers and encouragement of those here on earth, so also we, who are running the race here on earth, want the help and encouragement of those in heaven.
The writer of Hebrews uses the image of running a race with those who have gone before us cheering us on. “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.” (Heb 12:1).
This follows his recalling of the heroes of the Old Testament and says about them “Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” (Heb 11:39-40).
So they are alive witnessing us in our struggles. But they did not immediately receive what was promised, they had to wait for “something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” So it follows that the Saints are alive with them, having been made perfect.
They are not asleep, they are alive in Christ.
Hi Aspen,
How does Mary point you to Christ? Does she communicate to you?
Actually, we are surrounded by the witness of their lives (Hebrews 11) that they lived on earth and their deeds of faith.
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Only God is omnipresent. Not Saints, Not Mary.
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16741-the-goddess-man-has-made/
Axehead
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
The whole Body of Christ points to Christ - they are all fully redeemed and kneeling at the throne of God. Is it important to you Axehead if Mary speaks to me?
I have a GPS. I put in the address and it usually gets me there, and when I am there i get out for the journey has ended. See the Holy Spirit led me to Christ, now I am with Christ and He is with me, the search is over, no longer do I have to look for Him or ask directions, I speak He listens, He speaks 99% of the time I listen. Jesus is not lost He does not need to be found, so why do you need spirits to point to Him, havent you found Him yet???
In all His Love
In all His Love
-- Wrong. Not just wrong, but ridiculously so. There is absolutely nothing to support what you have just said.
-- Exactly. When you take it in context, you have to almost intentionally read it incorrectly to come to the conclusion it is talking about "the saints in heaven."
-- And again, it detracts from how Jesus HIMSELF taught us how to pray in Matt 6:9-13
That is why it is it is ridiculous to say that the Rosary is designed to emphasize Jesus when the the "Hail Mary" is said 53 times and the "Our Father" - the actual way Jesus taught us to pray - is said only six times.
-- If you are hearing from or interacting with someone other than Jesus when you pray, I don't know who it is, but it ISN'T Mary.
You should be very cautious.
Foreigner, Mungo's post #367. READ IT, his post explains exactly how that verse of Revelation is to be understood.
-- I read it. Completely. You left off the word "incorrectly" at the end of your sentence.
Foreigner,
No one prays to '' dead' saints, because those in heaven are more alive than we are. The Lord is God of the living, not of the dead. The fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful (Jas 5:16). Those in heaven are surely righteous, since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rv 21:27). Those in heaven are part of the Mystical Body of Christ and have not been separated from us by death, but surround us as a great cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1). They stand before the throne of God and offer our prayers to him (Rv 5:8) and cheer us on as we run the good race. Intercession among members of the body of Christ is pleasing to God (1 Tm 2:1-4) and even commanded by him (Jn 15:17). Those in heaven have a perfected love, so how could they 'not'iintercede for us? Christ is the vine, and we are the branches; if we are connected to him, we are inseparably bound together as well. Can the eye say to the hand, "I need you not"? Neither are we to say we don’t need the prayers of our brothers and sisters (alive here or in heaven), because salvation is a family affair.
No one prays to '' dead' saints, because those in heaven are more alive than we are. The Lord is God of the living, not of the dead. The fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful (Jas 5:16). Those in heaven are surely righteous, since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rv 21:27). Those in heaven are part of the Mystical Body of Christ and have not been separated from us by death, but surround us as a great cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1). They stand before the throne of God and offer our prayers to him (Rv 5:8) and cheer us on as we run the good race. Intercession among members of the body of Christ is pleasing to God (1 Tm 2:1-4) and even commanded by him (Jn 15:17). Those in heaven have a perfected love, so how could they 'not'iintercede for us? Christ is the vine, and we are the branches; if we are connected to him, we are inseparably bound together as well. Can the eye say to the hand, "I need you not"? Neither are we to say we don’t need the prayers of our brothers and sisters (alive here or in heaven), because salvation is a family affair.
Heck, maybe we should start a thread on what is the definition of alive and dead, it seems that not everyone has the same definition . . . .
Why I dont pray to saints, well I am one first off sanctified by teh blood of Christ, and as for them, God is a God osf the living not the dead. I dont need to pray to saints, I just talk to Jesus, he is always with me, He said He would be, He isnt deaf, He can hear, and if talking to Him is not enough for you, then im stuffed if I know what good praying to saints is going to do ?????
In All His Love
In All His Love
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