JUSTIFICATION: Catholic Vs. Protestant, Part #1

[marks]

There are no laws to keep under the New Covenant. Because "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those that believe" Romans 10:4.

Amen! And even so, the prophets have foretold when God would regather a believing Israel to their land, and that they would all be filled with the Spirit, with a new heart, and that they would perfectly keep every statute and judgment and precept. I completely agree, all true righteousness comes from God Himself by faith in Christ.

Much love!

 

[Robert Pate]

Amen! And even so, the prophets have foretold when God would regather a believing Israel to their land, and that they would all be filled with the Spirit, with a new heart, and that they would perfectly keep every statute and judgment and precept. I completely agree, all true righteousness comes from God Himself by faith in Christ.

Much love!

Christ is the Christians righteousness. Outside of Christ we do not have a righteousness. We are righteous only in Christ and because of Christ.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh I understand what you say and where it comes From

I don’t think you do.

lol it’s the biblical defenition. You just do not like it because it does not agree with your belief system. It destroys your belief system

My hope is in God and his promises
Your hope is in your church your history and your works.

Who has true assurance? Me placing hope in God or you placing your hope in men?

My hope is in Christ – AHD His Church because they are ONE and the same . . .

Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.

Saul was persecuting the Church – yet Jesus asked him, “Why do you persecute ME?”

 

[BreadOfLife]

Who is refusing to discuss it?

In post #65, I asked a poster to define “faith”.
The response in #69 was a refusal to give an answer.

Since then, a number of you have danced around the issue or have simply refused to answer it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Personally I'm not refusing anything other than to play along with this nonsense.

Much love!

OR to give a definition of "faith" . . .

 

[Robert Pate]

Right.
So. define "Faith"

The Bible defines "Faith" "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Hebrews 11:1.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Bible defines "Faith" "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Hebrews 11:1.

That's a description of faith - NOT a definition.
It doesn't even include "belief".

 

[Robert Pate]

That's a description of faith - NOT a definition.
It doesn't even include "belief".

Faith and belief mean the same thing. When you believe you have faith. When you have faith you believe.

 

[Ziggy]

I am recovering from my stay in the hospital and am still very weak. There is no guarantee that I will be able to continue on the Forum. Please note that some of the statements that I have made in this article are from Verdict Publications, published by Robert D. Brinsmead. Verdict was a worldwide theological magazine that supported the Gospel and justification by faith. I subscribed to and supported Verdict for over 20 years.

The word "Justification" means to make right or to be vindicated from sin. To be declared guiltless. It is a legal word and is frequently used in a court of law. In the judgment the saved will be found justified. Both Catholics and Protestants agree that no one will enter heaven that has not been justified. The question is how are we justified?

Here are some differences on justification.

Catholic: To justify means to make righteous.
Protestant: To justify means to account as righteous.

Catholic: Justification comes from an infusion of grace.
Protestant: Justification comes by the imputation of Christ's righteousness.

Paul wrote, "But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

Catholics fail to acknowledge that all men are born after Adam and are sinners, Romans 5:12. The question then arises can man's fallen Adamic nature be rehabilitated and made acceptable to God by the works of the law? Paul answers this question when he said, "Therefore by the deeds of the law (what we do) there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

It is very apparent that works, laws and religion cannot justify. How then can a man be justified?

Catholic: Sanctifying grace in the believer makes him acceptable to God.
Protestant: The grace of God in Christ makes the believer acceptable to God.

When we stand in the judgment will God see enough sanctifying grace in our heart to justify us? I think not. When we stand in the judgment God will see us in Christ. If we are not found to be in Christ, we will perish.

More later.

I hope you mend soon.
I will keep you in my prayers.
Hugs

 

[Robert Pate]

I hope you mend soon.
I will keep you in my prayers.
Hugs

Thank you. I am beyond mending.

 

[Ziggy]

Thank you. I am beyond mending.

Dad's still in rehab recovering from a bladder infection. It's been over a month now. This rehab is also a hospice. He'll be 89 in February.
I don't think his body can take much more. His mind is sharp. He sounds kind of nasally. He had covid when he got there.
I don't know when or if he's coming home.

When I pray for him I think of you because I remember you said you were in hospice too.
I pray for no pain and no suffering. And a gentle transition home.
Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

Update:
I just called the rehab. Dad is doing well. He is eating in the diningroom.
And tentatively they looking for him to come home by Feb 6th.
His birthday is the 1st.
He loves Maple walnut Icecream. Maybe we can have a belated birthday party.

I don't like to get my hopes up. But I do like to have a positive attitude.
Thankyou
Hugs

 

[Robert Pate]

Dad's still in rehab recovering from a bladder infection. It's been over a month now. This rehab is also a hospice. He'll be 89 in February.
I don't think his body can take much more. His mind is sharp. He sounds kind of nasally. He had covid when he got there.
I don't know when or if he's coming home.

When I pray for him I think of you because I remember you said you were in hospice too.
I pray for no pain and no suffering. And a gentle transition home.
Hugs

Thank you, I am looking forward to my new home. I am sure that your dad is to. The purpose of hospice is to keep you comfortable while you are dying. Make sure that they are doing their Job.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Faith and belief mean the same thing. When you believe you have faith. When you have faith you believe.

WRONG.
James 2:19 makes this abundantly clear:

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

If YOU believe but do not surrender and obey – you’re NO better off than the demons . . .

 

[Robert Pate]

WRONG.
James 2:19 makes this abundantly clear:

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

If YOU believe but do not surrender and obey – you’re NO better off than the demons . . .

Almost everyone believes that there is a God. It is not possible to surrender and obey. As long as we are in these unredeemed Adamic bodies we will sin, Romans 8:23. Paul struggled with sin, Romans 7:7-25. We have not arrived yet.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Almost everyone believes that there is a God. It is not possible to surrender and obey. As long as we are in these unredeemed Adamic bodies we will sin, Romans 8:23. Paul struggled with sin, Romans 7:7-25. We have not arrived yet.

HUH??
I never said that we don’t sin. Nobody is without sin (1 John 1:8).

I said that “Faith” requires surrender and obedience – which includes good works.
YOU said that “Faith” and “Belief” is the same thing – and I showed you that the Bible says you’re wrong about that (James 2:19).

 

[mailmandan]

I said that “Faith” requires surrender and obedience – which includes good works.
YOU said that “Faith” and “Belief” is the same thing – and I showed you that the Bible says you’re wrong about that (James 2:19).

Faith results in surrender and obedience (yet not sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time) with good works being the fruit of faith. (Matthew 7:17) All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no good works at all demonstrate they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith.

The end result of authentic faith and the right kind of belief is the same - salvation/eternal life. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

The same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" used in James 2:19 is also used in Acts 16:31 and depending on the context can be used to describe mere "mental assent belief in God" (as in James 2:19) or saving belief in Jesus Christ (as in Acts 16:31).

G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4100 - πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from ; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

www.blueletterbible.org

G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4100 - πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from ; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

www.blueletterbible.org

It's one thing to believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the demons believe that. I call that believing in our head. Yet it's another thing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) The demons do not believe the gospel unto salvation. I call that believing in our heart. (Romans 10:8-10)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Faith results in surrender and obedience (yet not sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time) with good works being the fruit of faith. (Matthew 7:17) All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no good works at all demonstrate they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith.

The end result of authentic faith and the right kind of belief is the same - salvation/eternal life. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

The same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" used in James 2:19 is also used in Acts 16:31 and depending on the context can be used to describe mere "mental assent belief in God" (as in James 2:19) or saving belief in Jesus Christ (as in Acts 16:31).

G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4100 - πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from ; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

www.blueletterbible.org

G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4100 - πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from ; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

www.blueletterbible.org

It's one thing to believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the demons believe that. I call that believing in our head. Yet it's another thing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) The demons do not believe the gospel unto salvation. I call that believing in our heart. (Romans 10:8-10)

You talk about the context of pisteuo in James 2:19 – yet you ignore the context of the entire passage (James 2:14-26).

His entire reason for mentioning the belief of the demons (v. 19) is that they have no works. He concludes that faith without works is NOT faith at all.
Works are an essential element of faith – not an addition to it. And NOT works of our own so that we could boast – but the works GOD prepared in advance for us to complete (Eph. 2:10).

When Paul lists what is important –Love (charity) is at the TOP of his list as being greater than Faith or Hope (1 Cor. 13:13).

Paull goes on to remind us in Galatians – that love is NOT just a “feeling”, but action -
Gal. 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

 

[mailmandan]

You talk about the context of pisteuo in James 2:19 – yet you ignore the context of the entire passage (James 2:14-26).

I did not ignore the context at all. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

I already explained to you in post #137 that In James 2:19, we read the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Hence, the lack of good works. You seem to believe that all belief/faith is the same "except for the lack of good works" cannot seem to grasp this deeper faith which trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

His entire reason for mentioning the belief of the demons (v. 19) is that they have no works. He concludes that faith without works is NOT faith at all.

Now why do you think the demons lack good works? A good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17) Not all belief/faith is the same. Faith that produces no good works at all is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith.

So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Works are an essential element of faith – not an addition to it.

False. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith but not the very essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

And NOT works of our own so that we could boast – but the works GOD prepared in advance for us to complete (Eph. 2:10).

We are saved by grace through faith, not works, then we are created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works that we should walk in them. It's not about saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. We are not saved by works in general. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

When Paul lists what is important –Love (charity) is at the TOP of his list as being greater than Faith or Hope (1 Cor. 13:13).

Love is greater because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because we are now in His presence, love will still be the principle that governs all that God, and his saints are and do throughout eternity.

Paull goes on to remind us in Galatians – that love is NOT just a “feeling”, but action -
Gal. 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Paul says that faith works through or expresses itself through love. Faith is faith, love is love and actions which follow and are produced out of faith and love are works. You don't seem to make a distinction between faith, love and actions/works. This would explain why you teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.