Justification, instant sanctification and progressive sanctification and sainthood..

[Truman]

We are all members of the same Body, One in Christ Jesus. According to my heritage I am of the tribe of Issachar, but that is not what matters, but that we are a new creation in Christ Jesus, a fruitful branch.

Hi. I believe there is the congregation of Messiah, the chosen of Messiah, and we cannot forget Elohim's promise to Abraham when He said He would bless the inhabitants of the earth through the offspring of Abraham.
I believe that the word offspring here is plural.
Whoever else there is, they will also be of Messiah.
Of course we all have equal value in our Father's eyes!
The teaching that we are all of one body is a church teaching.
The church age has ended.
The "church" consisted of the congregation, the two houses of the chosen, and whoever else Yahweh had included.
We, the chosen, are the natural branch.
The congregation is the grafted-in branch.
Elohim shall reveal another branch.

 

[David H.]

I think you are still looking outside of yourself for what is already within you, assuming Christ lives in you. Trust that Jesus is sufficient now for all of a godly life.

I Think you are still living in complacency, thinking You are in need of nothing (Revelation 3:17)

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:7-10)

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ( 1 Cor. 3:10-15)

Like every good thing of God, The devil has his counterfeit version of it. So the doctrine of rest, as discussed in Hebrews 3 and 4 has been replaced with complacency, which is to say we need not do anything. The person who walks the path of sainthood is fully at rest in the sense of his salvation is sure, but he is looking at what he is building upon that foundation of faith....

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2 Peter 1:5-10)

Faith is a journey, not a destination, The destination is sainthood, not all arrive at that destination but so long as we are on that journey we remain fruitful, when we get stuck, we stop being fruitful, fall into pride and stop moving from victory to victory in our lives by the Work of the Holy spirit in us, Because our pride quenches the work of the Holy Spirit. We think we have arrived when in fact we are continually in need of this empowering work of the Holy Ghost.

Here is how A.W. Tozer puts it:
"Conversion for those first Christians was not a destination; It was the beginning of a journey. And right there is where the Biblical emphasis differs from ours... In the book of Acts, faith was for each believer a beginning not an end; it was a journey, not a bed in which to be waiting for the Day of the Lord's triumph."

This is what the church of the saints looks like.

 

[marks]

which is to say we need not do anything. The person who walks the path of sainthood is fully at rest in the sense of his salvation is sure, but he is looking at what he is building upon that foundation of faith....

One of the problems with this "works to sainthood" concept is the marginalization of those the Bible declares to be saints that you do not, because you don't think their works are enough.

There is to be a difference amongst God's people, that being in glory. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars of heaven forever.

I'm curious about something. In your view, what will be different, if anything, between the saints and those who are not the saints in the resurrection?

Much love!

 

[marks]

This is what the church of the saints looks like.

All filled with the same Spirit as they trust in Jesus. This is the church of the saints, another way to say, the body of Christ.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Faith is a journey, not a destination, The destination is sainthood,

Reach for what you desire, but I desire Christ.

The wonderful thing is, He promises to give rest to all!

Much love!

 

[David H.]

I'm curious about something. In your view, what will be different, if anything, between the saints and those who are not the saints in the resurrection?

Good Question:
I Know the army of the Lord is made up of 10,000 saints, (Jude 1:14) The fine linen of the bride is the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8)
an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:11) They will judge the world (1 Cor. 6:2). They will judge angels (1 Cor. 6:3) the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High (Daniel 7:27) There is riches and glory in the inheritance of the saints (Ephesians 1:18. There is a greater comprehension of the love of God in the saints, which fills us with the fulness of God. (Ephesians 3:18-19) I Could go on but this will suffice for now...

Consider this also, Paul the apostle considered Himself less than the least among the saints (Ephesians 3:8). If he considered himself that, then what did he consider all those he converted? The answer is in his writings. Again, we are getting into Revelation here, and the final unfolding.

The wonderful thing is, He promises to give rest to all!

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:1-2)

"Faith is not a bed to be waiting for the Day of the Lord's triumph"

One of the problems with this "works to sainthood" concept is the marginalization of those the Bible declares to be saints that you do not, because you don't think their works are enough.

Read again the verses I quoted above from 1 Corinthians 3:5-10.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ( 1 Cor. 3:10-15)

What kind of entrance do you want into the kingdom?

 

[marks]

Good Question:

And what would you say of those who are not saints? In the resurrection? No clothes? Thrown into outer darkness?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Consider this also, Paul the apostle considered Himself less than the least among the saints

He said that they were also saints. This designation is used with general application to the redeemed, as partly shown above. And to those whom Paul addresses as saints he also addresses correction to.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

And what would you say of those who are not saints? In the resurrection? No clothes? Thrown into outer darkness?

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

He said that they were also saints. This designation is used with general application to the redeemed, as partly shown above. And to those whom Paul addresses as saints he also addresses correction to.

Let's Just say, the clothing of the bride is the righteousness of the saints, would this not mean the bride and the saints are distinct? How did Paul view those whom he converted? Here are his own words: For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Corinthians 11:2) He considers himself to be "LESS THAN the least of the saints" and considers those he converts as the Bride. So we have two distinct groups. Can one "of the bride" become a saint? Absolutely, But they are not there until they are perfected and called to make that sacrifice. None of this is "denying" salvation by grace alone through faith alone, but building upon that foundation. This is the progressive revelation of the church. It is not a works based message either, because it is of the sovereign will of God, not by our merit that the final call to sainthood is made. We are all on that journey, not all finish the journey.

I Believe that in saying all believers are saints, you are in fact saying that belief equals the qualification for sainthood. Just reading all of scripture where saints are discussed, i cannot make this conclusion, a saint is one set apart from the whole, if the whole is the body of Christ, the saint is one set apart from that body They are the heart and soul of the Body here on earth and will be so in the kingdom.

 

[marks]

"Faith is not a bed to be waiting for the Day of the Lord's triumph"

Interesting thought!

Haggai, in ch. 2, asked the priests, if something that is holy touches something that is not, bread, or meat, or wine, does it make the not holy thing to be holy? No, it does not. And if someone who is unclean from a dead body, if they touch any of these, will it be unclean? Yes, it will be.

God tells us we are not saved by good works, rather, that we are saved unto good works, that we should walk in those works. Not just any works, but those which were preordained that we would walk in them.

We can of ourselves do something that would be good if God were doing it, but if God is not doing it through us (katergadzomai cp. ergon, Philippians 2:12-13, we perform His work), then it is a work of the flesh, and that which is dead makes what could otherwise be holy to be corrupt.

In the same way, there are things we can do in this life good or bad. But God has certain plans for us, and we can be so busy doing our own plans in our own ways, thinking we are doing the work of God, or maybe not really thinking about it, but that doesn't mean we are building with the proper materials.

We are all of us building, the question is, what materials? What makes the difference between which materials are used? I think the difference is the source, the flesh, or the Sprirt.

The things are the same, bread, pottage, wine, meat, the holy thing does not confer holiness to those things, but the unholy thing confers unholiness to all it touches.

We build each other in personal relationships, we take places in the church, to teach, to serve, to administrate, all the things we do. But some of this will be burnt away as dross. I think those things which arose from the flesh, for all the different reasons and ways we do that.

But as Christ lives in us, as we yield to His life trusting Him to give us life, then we walk in those works He set out ahead of time, a certain life of works which God planned for me.

You say, faith is not a bed, but I think faith in Christ is where we find our rest, having rested from all of our works. Otherwise this is the old man who is dead in sin touching what could be holy, but making it unholy.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[Behold]

I Believe that in saying all believers are saints, you are in fact saying that belief equals the qualification for sainthood.

David H...The problem with your analysis, is that you are comprehending "sainthood", as being related to Belief., and in fact, its not.

The "devil believes" .. and he's not a saint.
Every fallen Angel believes in Jesus, and they're not a saint.
Every single person who died today an Atheist, is currently in Hell, full of faith, completely convinced that Jesus is Lord and God is real, and their BELIEF is not qualifying them as a "Saint".

The devil has more of God in His life then he could ever want, Hes a true believer, and he is not a saint.

So, The best way to understand this word "Saint" as regarding the child of God is to recognize it as an Identification that is only given to God's redeemed.

Being a Saint, happens, because all the born again are identified as Saints.

All the born again, are "the temple of the Holy Spirit"
All the Born again, are "the body of Christ".
All the born again, are "brethren"
All the born again, are "the redeemed".
All the born again, are "SONS of God".
All the Born again, are "seated in heavenly places, In Christ"
All the born again, are, Translated from Darkness to Light"
All the born again, are "not under the law, but Under Grace".
All the born again, are "blood bought"
All the born again, are, "In Christ"
All the born again, are "ONE with God"
All the born again, are "Heirs of God"
All the born again, are "joint heirs with Jesus".

So, what im showing you, is that when you become a "new creation", you have gained a Heavenly IDENTIFICATiON that is ALL of what i just wrote.
And "SAINT" is just one of the titles, that belong to the born again.

Every Born again is a SAINT, in God's perspective.

Are you born again, reader? Then you are a Saint, in God's perspective, the instant you become a "new creation", "In Christ"

 

[Behold]

We must rest in the righteousness of God imputed by faith in Christ; this is indeed most Scriptural.

What you have stated is : Resting in the Grace of God.

To rest there, is to agree with God, that you are made righteous and kept so...by the blood of Jesus.
And once you see this, reader, once you come to really believe this, then you begin to rest in the Grace of God, that is the power of Christ that delivers you from sinning and confessing, and into real Christianity.

 

[marks]

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I'm not sure how this answers the question. They will be identical to the saints except lacking in the same rewards? Is that what you are saying?

Much love!

 

[marks]

But they are not there until they are perfected and called to make that sacrifice.

This is something very particular which I fail to find in Scripture. That saints are only saints when they've been killed for their faith. I know this is a foundation for your assertions, but where would you show me this in the Bible?

Or is this one of those things that aren't really there, only, you just know it's true?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I Believe that in saying all believers are saints, you are in fact saying that belief equals the qualification for sainthood.

But as many as received Him, even believing in His Name, to them God gave the right to be born again . . . born of God.

This rebirth being born from God, is our recreation in righteousness and true holiness. So yes, believing in the Name of Jesus, receiving Jesus, as we see here in John 1, from this, God gives us new birth, setting us apart for Himself, and we are the saints.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

You say, faith is not a bed, but I think faith in Christ is where we find our rest, having rested from all of our works. Otherwise this is the old man who is dead in sin touching what could be holy, but making it unholy.

Your thoughts?

Correct, The doctrine of rest is when we yield to the work of the holy Spirit in us, We No longer are working but resting in His promises, and his ability to accomplish his will in us. Overall I agree with this comment, and it was well put. On the other side of the coin, the devil has his own immitation of this doctrine in the life of a Christian and it is known as complacency, and easy believism, that is to say once you are saved that is all there is to the Christian life. They may have an initial salvation experience, and be transformed at the outset from the life they had previous, and I am not doubting their salvation in the least, but they are stuck in a rut, not having victory, and continually growing in the faith, because they have been deceived into thinking they are in need of nothing. Part of this is the thinking that as soon as you are born again you are a saint, what this is is nothing more than a deception, ingrained in the doctrine, and a result of living experiential faith being replaced by textualism.

You have to walk the path of a saint in order to become a saint, it is a path walked by many before us We walk in the footsteps of the saints who dis so before us.

I'm not sure how this answers the question. They will be identical to the saints except lacking in the same rewards? Is that what you are saying?

Correct. if they are born again, they will be granted an entrance into the kingdom of God, but their place and reward will be less than those who built with on the foundation rightly.

This is something very particular which I fail to find in Scripture. That saints are only saints when they've been killed for their faith. I know this is a foundation for your assertions, but where would you show me this in the Bible?

Or is this one of those things that aren't really there, only, you just know it's true?

it is primarily found in Revelation. the operative word that you have to understand is Testimony (Martyria, G3141) Primarily found in revelation 6:9, and Revelation 12:11....

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony G3141 which they held: (6:9)

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; G3141 and they loved not their lives unto the death.(12:11)

it is the same word used of the two witnesses 11:7 this being the "testimony of Jesus" as well: (Revelation 1:9, Revelation 19:10) And they are those who are beheaded as a witness of Jesus (Revelation 20:4)

Do you see this now? These are the saints and their reward is great. But we are not a suicide cult, this is not something we choose, but God chooses. He may reveal to those he has chosen some of the details, such as Peter was shown, and that Paul knew as he willfully went to Jerusalem knowing the outcome of this would be grievous. But we ourselves cannot force ourselves to this.

Another passage of scripture that speaks of this is the beattitudes. There are three sets of three, study them and note the severity involved in each blessing, and notice the last one in particular. When you start to see this, you will find a myriad of examples of this such as Luke 21:12-19 and The Acts of the Apostles 5:40-42, and 1 Peter 4:12-19, all of which point directly to the saints.

God Bless.

 

[David H.]

David H...The problem with your analysis, is that you are comprehending "sainthood", as being related to Belief., and in fact, its not.

The "devil believes" .. and he's not a saint.
Every fallen Angel believes in Jesus, and they're not a saint.
Every single person who died today an Atheist, is currently in Hell, full of faith, completely convinced that Jesus is Lord and God is real, and their BELIEF is not qualifying them as a "Saint".

Every Born again is a SAINT, in God's perspective.

I Was wondering when you would chime in. I use believer interchangeably with the Born again in this, so your point that the devil and those in hell believe is a moot point. To be Born again does not make you a saint. A saint is one who has walked the path of a saint, and has been chosen by God to give their testimony. Not every born again believer is called to this end, many die of old age and natural causes or accidents etc.

Paul calls himself "less than the least of the saints".... He wrote more than half the New testament (If you count Hebrews as his), and he is least... Less than least???? Yet eventually he finished the race. if he considered himself less than least of them should we as born again assume we are greater than Paul?

What you teach is simply defined as textualism. We have been through this discussion elsewhere, but for the benefit of others here reading this textualism is the teaching of the doctrine devoid of the process of experiencing the doctrine. So for example, the teaching the doctrine of eternal security to a Born again believer without having them arrive at the full assurance of the faith that comes from "working out your faith with fear and trembling". Now, I in saying this fully believe in the doctrine of eternal security, but it cannot be arrived at just by mental agreement but comes to those who in relationship with Christ pass through the valley of doubt and arrive at the full assurance of the faith.

It is the same thing with saints in scripture. Faith is a journey not a destinations, becoming a saint is a journey of faith lived over a lifetime. A newly born again believer is not automatically a saint, but a saint is a calling and an election that is arrived at. All the born again are called to be saints, only a few are chosen, and we have nothing to do with that choice in that it is of the sovereign will of God, (A concept which you do not believe in).

I am an Arminian when it comes to salvation, but a Calvinist when it comes to sainthood. That is what scripture teaches and when you rightly distinguish between the faithful and the saints you too will see this, and that long held division in the church falls by the wayside when we correct this error that has been indoctrinated in the church for 500 years now. Five hundred years of denominationalism is largely the result of this misunderstanding.

 

[marks]

Part of this is the thinking that as soon as you are born again you are a saint, what this is is nothing more than a deception, ingrained in the doctrine, and a result of living experiential faith being replaced by textualism.

Being a saint is simply a status. Having been transfered out of darkness and into His kingdom, we've become His. Being born of Him, we are His.

You've added conditions of what it means to be a saint that are not included in the meaning of the word itself, they are not added by passages in the Bible as we compare Scriptures to be able to understand the word. They do not agree with many clearly stated Scriptures.

And these conditions would have people dividing the text in ways not intended. Only the truth sets us free, we need to be sure that's what we have, and that is according to the 'textualism' you seem to not like.

What would it mean, "a living experiential faith replaced by textualism"? Are you assuming that if someone knows, and holds to the teachings of the Bible that this will derail their "experiential faith"?

Wouldn't it instead be true that knowing the Bible correctly will enhance our experiential faith, as we come to know more of it's fullness?

this textualism is the teaching of the doctrine devoid of the process of experiencing the doctrine.

How can you even begin to say this? You support your view with by sharing your negative opinion of me? I don't know where I've seen this done than on this forum.

How is it that you would have any idea about my relationship with God, and the experience of my life?

This is where you stop supporting your doctrine, you stop refuting mine, and turn towards a personal argument against me. Terrific!

much love!

 

[David H.]

Being a saint is simply a status. Having been transfered out of darkness and into His kingdom, we've become His. Being born of Him, we are His.

You've added conditions of what it means to be a saint that are not included in the meaning of the word itself, they are not added by passages in the Bible as we compare Scriptures to be able to understand the word. They do not agree with many clearly stated Scriptures.

And these conditions would have people dividing the text in ways not intended. Only the truth sets us free, we need to be sure that's what we have, and that is according to the 'textualism' you seem to not like.

What would it mean, "a living experiential faith replaced by textualism"? Are you assuming that if someone knows, and holds to the teachings of the Bible that this will derail their "experiential faith"?

Wouldn't it instead be true that knowing the Bible correctly will enhance our experiential faith, as we come to know more of it's fullness?

How can you even begin to say this? You support your view with by sharing your negative opinion of me? I don't know where I've seen this done than on this forum.

How is it that you would have any idea about my relationship with God, and the experience of my life?

This is where you stop supporting your doctrine, you stop refuting mine, and turn towards a personal argument against me. Terrific!

much love!

I Will let Tozer define Textualism since you have a hard time grasping it. Most who are fundamentalists do have this difficulty, because it is how they were raised to think. I am adding parts to give this context for you. Note especially the highlighted parts.

"....Here are my reasons. A generation ago, as a reaction from Higher Criticism and its offspring, Modernism, there arose in Protestantism a powerful movement in defense of the historic Christian faith. This, for obvious reasons, came to be known as Fundamentalism. It was a more or less spontaneous movement without much organization, but its purpose wherever it appeared was the same: to stay 'the rising tide of negation' in Christian theology and to restate and defend the basic doctrines of New Testament Christianity....

What is generally overlooked is that Fundamentalism, as it spread throughout the various denominations and nondenominational groups, fell victim to its own virtues. The Word died in the hands of its friends. ... An unofficial hierarchy decided what Christians were to believe. Not the Scriptures, but what the scribe thought the Scriptures meant became the Christian creed. Christian colleges, seminaries, Bible institutes, Bible conferences, popular Bible expositors all joined to promote the cult of textualism. The system of extreme dispensationalism which was devised, relieved the Christian of repentance, obedience and cross-carrying in any other than the most formal sense. Whole sections of the New Testament were taken from the church and disposed of after a rigid system of “dividing the Word of truth.”

All this resulted in a religious mentality inimical to the true faith of Christ. ... The basic doctrines of the Bible were there, but the climate was just not favorable to the sweet fruits of the Spirit.

The whole mood was different from that of the Early Church and of the great souls who suffered and sang and worshiped in the centuries past. The doctrines were sound but something vital was missing. The tree of correct doctrine was never allowed to blossom. The voice of the turtle [dove] was rarely heard in the land".... Faith, a mighty, vitalizing doctrine in the mouths of the apostles, became in the mouth of the scribe another thing altogether and power went from it. As the letter triumphed, the Spirit withdrew and textualism ruled supreme....

In the interest of accuracy it should be said that this was a general condition only. Certainly there were some even in those low times whose longing hearts were better theologians than their teachers were. These pressed on to a fullness and power unknown to the rest. But they were not many and the odds were too great" they could not dispel the mist that hung over the land.

The error of textualism is not doctrinal. It is far more subtle than that and much more difficult to discover, but its effects are just as deadly. Not its theological beliefs are at fault, but its assumptions.

It assumes, for instance, that if we have the word for a thing we have the thing itself. If it is in the Bible, it is in us. If we have the doctrine, we have the experience. If something was true of Paul it is of necessity true of us because we accept Paul's epistles as divinely inspired. The Bible tells us how to be saved, but textualism goes on to make it tell us that we are saved, something which in the very nature of things it cannot do. Assurance of individual salvation is thus no more than a logical conclusion drawn from doctrinal premises, and the resultant experience wholly mental.

....That note of protest which began with the New Testament and which was always heard loudest when the Church was most powerful has been successfully silenced. The radical element in testimony and life that once made Christians hated by the world is missing from present-day evangelism.

Christians were once revolutionists-- moral, not political -- but we have lost our revolutionary character. It is no longer either dangerous or costly to be a Christian..... We are busy these days proving to the world that they can have all the benefits of the Gospel without any of the inconvenience to their customary way of life. It's 'all this and heaven too.'...

For this reason it is useless for... believers to spend long hours begging God to send revival. Unless we intend to reform, we may as well not pray. Unless praying men have the insight and faith to amend their whole way of life to conform to the New Testament patterns, there can be no true revival."

No Revival without Reformation - A.W. Tozer - Sermon Index

what I know about you in our limited contact here is that Your heart is in the right place, and you want to know the truth, But you are afraid of the move of the Holy Spirit, who desires this reformation to occur, afraid, because you feel this is leading to error, no matter how much scriptural evidence and explaining I do for you. What I am preaching is a radical reform of the church as we know it, one that restores the apostolic understanding of the Christian life from being Born again to becoming Saints, the Journey of the saint Which was travelled by all the apostles. When rightly understood, there is the unity of the Spirit in this, for we are all on that same journey.

So, the question for you is do you really want to see this reformation and revival in your life? Do you even see the need for it? If no then this topic is "above your pay grade" as the old cliche puts it.

God Bless.

 

[marks]

I Will let Tozer define Textualism since you have a hard time grasping it. Most who are fundamentalists do have this difficulty, because it is how they were raised to think. I am adding parts to give this context for you. Note especially the highlighted parts.

"....Here are my reasons. A generation ago, as a reaction from Higher Criticism and its offspring, Modernism, there arose in Protestantism a powerful movement in defense of the historic Christian faith. This, for obvious reasons, came to be known as Fundamentalism. It was a more or less spontaneous movement without much organization, but its purpose wherever it appeared was the same: to stay 'the rising tide of negation' in Christian theology and to restate and defend the basic doctrines of New Testament Christianity....

What is generally overlooked is that Fundamentalism, as it spread throughout the various denominations and nondenominational groups, fell victim to its own virtues. The Word died in the hands of its friends. ... An unofficial hierarchy decided what Christians were to believe. Not the Scriptures, but what the scribe thought the Scriptures meant became the Christian creed. Christian colleges, seminaries, Bible institutes, Bible conferences, popular Bible expositors all joined to promote the cult of textualism. The system of extreme dispensationalism which was devised, relieved the Christian of repentance, obedience and cross-carrying in any other than the most formal sense. Whole sections of the New Testament were taken from the church and disposed of after a rigid system of “dividing the Word of truth.”

All this resulted in a religious mentality inimical to the true faith of Christ. ... The basic doctrines of the Bible were there, but the climate was just not favorable to the sweet fruits of the Spirit.

The whole mood was different from that of the Early Church and of the great souls who suffered and sang and worshiped in the centuries past. The doctrines were sound but something vital was missing. The tree of correct doctrine was never allowed to blossom. The voice of the turtle [dove] was rarely heard in the land".... Faith, a mighty, vitalizing doctrine in the mouths of the apostles, became in the mouth of the scribe another thing altogether and power went from it. As the letter triumphed, the Spirit withdrew and textualism ruled supreme....

In the interest of accuracy it should be said that this was a general condition only. Certainly there were some even in those low times whose longing hearts were better theologians than their teachers were. These pressed on to a fullness and power unknown to the rest. But they were not many and the odds were too great" they could not dispel the mist that hung over the land.

The error of textualism is not doctrinal. It is far more subtle than that and much more difficult to discover, but its effects are just as deadly. Not its theological beliefs are at fault, but its assumptions.

It assumes, for instance, that if we have the word for a thing we have the thing itself. If it is in the Bible, it is in us. If we have the doctrine, we have the experience. If something was true of Paul it is of necessity true of us because we accept Paul's epistles as divinely inspired. The Bible tells us how to be saved, but textualism goes on to make it tell us that we are saved, something which in the very nature of things it cannot do. Assurance of individual salvation is thus no more than a logical conclusion drawn from doctrinal premises, and the resultant experience wholly mental.

....That note of protest which began with the New Testament and which was always heard loudest when the Church was most powerful has been successfully silenced. The radical element in testimony and life that once made Christians hated by the world is missing from present-day evangelism.

Christians were once revolutionists-- moral, not political -- but we have lost our revolutionary character. It is no longer either dangerous or costly to be a Christian..... We are busy these days proving to the world that they can have all the benefits of the Gospel without any of the inconvenience to their customary way of life. It's 'all this and heaven too.'...

For this reason it is useless for... believers to spend long hours begging God to send revival. Unless we intend to reform, we may as well not pray. Unless praying men have the insight and faith to amend their whole way of life to conform to the New Testament patterns, there can be no true revival."

No Revival without Reformation - A.W. Tozer - Sermon Index

what I know about you in our limited contact here is that Your heart is in the right place, and you want to know the truth, But you are afraid of the move of the Holy Spirit, who desires this reformation to occur, afraid, because you feel this is leading to error, no matter how much scriptural evidence and explaining I do for you. What I am preaching is a radical reform of the church as we know it, one that restores the apostolic understanding of the Christian life from being Born again to becoming Saints, the Journey of the saint Which was travelled by all the apostles. When rightly understood, there is the unity of the Spirit in this, for we are all on that same journey.

So, the question for you is do you really want to see this reformation and revival in your life? Do you even see the need for it? If no then this topic is "above your pay grade" as the old cliche puts it.

God Bless.

I get what you are saying. Either I display the same spiritual understands as you do, or else that means I've traded away a true spirituality for something dead and dry just reading the Bible but without any real faith or relationship.

Yet you know nothing about me, and just judge according to . . . what exactly? Why do you judge me so?

You have no idea about me. Only that I disagree with your doctrine.

So instead of going on to support from the Bible your view, you decide to instead make your case that I'm "letter-dead" with no Spirit life???

What gives???

I'm attempting to show you how to have that unity with your brothers now.

Much love!