Justification, instant sanctification and progressive sanctification and sainthood..

[marks]

But you are afraid of the move of the Holy Spirit, who desires this reformation to occur, afraid, because you feel this is leading to error, no matter how much scriptural evidence and explaining I do for you.

This is at the heart of the Ad Hominem argument. "To the man".

Your words about me are purely presumption. If you think I'm afraid of what the Holy Spirit will do in my life, clearly, you don't know the first thing about me. I might have the same luck trying to convince you that you are from Saturn.

I enjoy good discussion, and especially about God and His Word. But what a waste time and energy to go on and on with your groundless and negative opinions of me - judgments for which you will give account - instead!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Pushing Negative Opinons of Others Does Not Equal a Valid Argument, Or Enjoyable Discussion.

Or does it?

 

[marks]

If no then this topic is "above your pay grade"

Here's an exercise you may want to try.

Read through your posts, and count the "put downs". It can be a real eye-opener.

 

[David H.]

Here's an exercise you may want to try.

Read through your posts, and count the "put downs". It can be a real eye-opener.

Marks,
None of what i wrote was a "put down" of you. what you are experiencing is the CONVICTION of the Holy Spirit. I am speaking of a general condition in the church as a whole, the words are pointing to this in yourself, there is no malice nor "ad hominem" attempts in any of my writing.

This is exactly what Tozer was talking about, and what is happening in the world today Christianity is losing its revolutionary character, because of fear of offending someone, when the whole point of the Christian faith is to bring the conviction of the Holy Spirit to the people.

Read my comment again, I complimented you several times as well, but because your focus was on the negative you only see that.

Read the following link as well, here is a snippet:

Unoffendable

By Francis Frangipane

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh" (Ezek. 36:26).

God has a new heart for us that cannot be offended, an "unoffendable" heart. Beloved, possessing an unoffendable heart is not an option or a luxury; it's not a little thing. An offended heart is endanger of becoming a "heart of stone."

Consider: Jesus warns that, as we near the end of the age, a majority of people will be offended to such a degree that they fall away from the faith. Listen carefully to His warning:

"Then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another . . . and because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matt. 24:10-12 KJV).

"Many" will "be offended." The result? The love of "many" will grow cold. My prayer is that we will hear His words with holy fear.

When we allow an offense to remain in our hearts, it causes serious spiritual consequences. In the above verse Jesus named three dangerous results: betrayal, hatred and cold love. When we are offended with someone, even someone we care for, we must go to them. If we do not talk to them, we will begin to talk about them. We betray that relationship, whispering maliciously behind their back to others, exposing their weaknesses and sins. We may mask our betrayal by saying we are just looking for advice or counsel, but when we look back, we see we have spoken negatively to far too many people. Our real goal was not to get spiritual help for ourselves but to seek revenge toward the one who offended us. How is such action not a manifestation of hatred? For an offended soul, cold love, betrayal and hatred are a walk into darkness.

People don't stumble over boulders; they stumble over stones, relatively small things. It may be that the personality of someone in authority bothers us, and soon we are offended. Or, a friend or family member fails to meet our expectations, and we take an offense into our soul. Beloved, if we will "endure to the end," we will have to confront the things that bother us.

When Jesus warns that we need endurance, He is saying that it is easier to begin the race than finish it. Between now and the day you die, there will be major times of offense that you will need to overcome. You might be in such a time right now. Do not minimize the danger of harboring an offense!

No one plans on falling away; no one ever says, "Today, I think I'll try to develop a hardened heart of stone." Such things enter our souls through stealth. It is only naiveté that assumes it couldn't happen to us. I know many people who consistently become offended about one thing or another. Instead of dealing with the offenses, praying about them and turning the issue over to God, they carry the offense in their soul until its weight disables their walk with God. You may be doing fine today, but I guarantee you, tomorrow something will happen that will inevitably disappoint or wound you; some injustice will strike you, demanding you retaliate in the flesh. Will you find more love, and hence, continue your growth toward Christlikeness? Or will you allow that offense to consume your spiritual life?

The Root Of Offense
An offense can strike at our virtues or sins, our values or our pride. It can penetrate and wound any dimension of the soul, both good and evil. I once brought a series of messages about gossip. Most people saw their sin and repented, but a core group of gossips were greatly offended and ultimately left the church. When the Holy Spirit exposes sin in someone's soul, if we refuse the opportunity to repent, we often become offended at the person who brought the teaching. Instead of humbling our hearts, we are outraged at the person who exposed us. Truthfully, most of the time, I have no idea who specifically needs to hear what I'm teaching, but God knows.

Paul told Timothy to "reprove, rebuke, exhort" (see 2 Tim. 4:2). He didn't say, "exhort, exhort, exhort," but exhortation is what we receive in most churches. Certainly, we need to be encouraged, but there are also times, beloved, when we need to be reproved and rebuked. Today, there are preachers who are afraid to preach truth for fear people will react and leave the church. The end result is a church of easily offended people who cannot grow beyond their inability to accept correction.

People don't change by exhortation alone. There are areas in all of us that need to be confronted and disciplined. The pastor who refuses to discipline and correct those in sin is in disobedience to God. He is unable to lead people into any truly transforming changes in their lives; they will not "endure to the end" if they cannot be corrected (see Matt. 24).

We need to become a people who say, "Lord, show me what needs to change in me." I'm talking about growing up. A wise man will receive a rebuke and he will prosper. But a fool rejects his father's discipline (see Prov. 15:5).

Read More at this link: Francis Frangipane's Eword Messages: Unoffendable (francisfrangipanemessages.blogspot.com)

 

[David H.]

If you think I'm afraid of what the Holy Spirit will do in my life, clearly, you don't know the first thing about me.

When I first read these words of Tozer, I as a fundamentalist Baptist was offended, but those words convicted me, and showed me what I was missing out on in the faith. They showed me My complacency, my inability to learn from the Holy Spirit, How my self-sufficiency was getting in the way of my Spiritual Growth. The Lord Brought me into the wilderness of life, took away everything i treasured in order for me to see this. I am merely trying to teach What He has shown me so that you will be ready for that as well. Conviction leads to two places either repentance or hardness of heart, which will it be for you?

IF the latter, there is no reason for you and I to discuss this further, as you are not ready to hear what the Spirit is saying to the church. You would rather quench the Spirit.

 

[marks]

When I first read these words of Tozer, I as a fundamentalist Baptist was offended, but those words convicted me, and showed me what I was missing out on in the faith. They showed me My complacency, my inability to learn from the Holy Spirit, How my self-sufficiency was getting in the way of my Spiritual Growth. The Lord Brought me into the wilderness of life, took away everything i treasured in order for me to see this. I am merely trying to teach What He has shown me so that you will be ready for that as well.

OK, I can appreciate that.

But I'm not you, you do understand that?

You are assuming I am now as you were then. When the reality is that you are writing back and forth with this guy online that you've never met, have no real knowledge of his life, and these are only your assumptions and opinions.

So, as so many do, you appear to feel free to share your negative opinions of me to whomever will listen, as you endeavor to convict me of sin.

Why do you assume I have a hard heart? Why do you say this to me?? Because I disagree over the meaning of "saint"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

None of what i wrote was a "put down" of you. what you are experiencing is the CONVICTION of the Holy Spirit.

You tell me I'm afraid, afraid of God, afraid of you, that I have limited understanding and capability, that I'm not spiritual, That's just off the top. You all but accuse me intellectual dishonesty, you say that I'm having a hard time grasping things,

IF the latter, there is no reason for you and I to discuss this further, as you are not ready to hear what the Spirit is saying to the church. You would rather quench the Spirit.

Nonsense.

When I began to refute your assertions with Scripture, you started making it person, and haven't stopped.

So, shall I compare what I learn from the Bible with the teachings of a man who turns insulting when I show Scripture? Who insists they know all about me, that I'm so fearful and unspiritual and whatever . . .

IF you can just get back to just the doctrine instead . . .

Much love!

 

[David H.]

1.But I'm not you, you do understand that?

2. You are assuming I am now as you were then. When the reality is that you are writing back and forth with this guy online that you've never met, have no real knowledge of his life, and these are only your assumptions and opinions.

3. So, as so many do, you appear to feel free to share your negative opinions of me to whomever will listen, as you endeavor to convict me of sin.

4. Why do you assume I have a hard heart? Why do you say this to me?? Because I disagree over the meaning of "saint"?

I Numbered your point so that I can answer them individually.
1. I Understand and never implied you are me, I am judging you by what you have written to me here on line. As I said previously, you have desire for Truth, and your heart is in the right place, but you are afraid of error and this leads to you being cautious of the move of the Spirit. I am not the Only one that sees this in you.

2. No, I am sharing how I was then, to give you some of my history, whether you relate to my past or not is irrelevant. the Point I am making is that conviction from the Holy Ghost is either received with repentance or with a hardened heart. You would not be Offended if you were not convicted, and the Words of Tozer who never knew you personally convicted you, not my words, He was a Holy Spirit led teacher of the Word, one of the last that was truly Holy Spirit taught and not produced in the seminaries of textualism, and worth reading if you have not.

3. Up until this point I have had nothing but a favorable opinion of you, you are again reading negativity because of the Conviction the Holy Spirit is bringing to you in this topic. I want interaction, I want you questioning my positions as iron sharpens iron. I am not offended by your questioning nor offended by your rejection of what I am trying to teach you, I would rather you be a Berean and search the scriptures to see if it is so. This how fellowship of the Spirit works. It is not all exhort, exhort exhort, as the article I posted stated, but there is reproof and rebuke involved as well. Love for a brother is not always pleasant, I have two natural brothers of my own, and the same can be said of those relationships, sometimes we rubbed each other the wrong way, but we were still brothers, and we can learn from one another.

4. I do not assume that, I said this "animosity" you are reading in my posts is the conviction of the Holy Spirit my words are bringing to you. There are two reactions to this conviction, a hardening of the heart is one of them and true Godly repentance and growth the other. That is why I highlighted, (Capitalized and emboldened the word "IF" in that comment. The Point being that I do not want this to lead to a hardened heart and animosity between us. I would rather defer from debating you and interacting with you if this is going to be the result.

This is what I mean by "above your pay grade". Do You understand?

You tell me I'm afraid, afraid of God, afraid of you, that I have limited understanding and capability, that I'm not spiritual, That's just off the top. You all but accuse me intellectual dishonesty, you say that I'm having a hard time grasping things,

There you go again, reading an insult where there is none. I am just trying to tell you that this is not a debate worth having because it will lead to a hardened heart, because you are being offended by what I write, instead of seeing it as iron sharpening iron.

When I began to refute your assertions with Scripture, you started making it person, and haven't stopped.

Again, this is all coming from your end, not my end. You are perceiving an attack on your person when this is not the case on my end. Look back at when this began in our discussion and you will see this, as this began when I gave you the scriptural backing on where in scripture the concept of saints dying is spoken of. I was responding scripturally to a question you had and gave you very many scriptural responses to this query on your part, but all you saw was my mention of textualism being an attack on you. YOU never responded to those scriptures which I gave you to answer your question, and instead reverted to being offended at what I wrote. So If you really want to continue to discuss the scripture of this point I am making go back to that comment and respond to the scriptures i gave you instead of ranting about how offended you are by my comments. Go Back to comment number 36 and respond from there in a scriptural way and we can continue this discussion in a fruitful way, but IF You are going to be offended by the discussion then there will be no fruit in it.

the choice is yours. Go back and reread comment 36 and respond without being offended, for no offense was on my heart there.

 

[marks]

you are again reading negativity because of the Conviction the Holy Spirit is bringing to you in this topic.

You are misreading the situation.

I want interaction, I want you questioning my positions as iron sharpens iron. I am not offended by your questioning nor offended by your rejection of what I am trying to teach you,

Your replies tell me you would rather discuss your perceptions of deficiency in me than to discuss the Bible itself.

If you can stop detailing your ideas of me as a person, this discussion could perhaps continue. But should you continue to make it about me as a person, I'll continue to point it out in the hopes that you can recognize what you are doing and stop.

Much love!

 

[marks]

but you are afraid of error and this leads to you being cautious of the move of the Spirit.

Nonsense and nonsense.

There is no discussing with you. You've apparently made up your mind that since I don't agree with you, there is deficiency in me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hebrews 10:6-10
6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.



In which will "having been sanctified" we are . . .

"having been sanctified" is here a passive voice, which means it is done to you, not that you do this yourself, and that it is already done, and remains done. We are "having been sanctified", that is, we were sanctified (made saints) and we still are.


Much love!

 

[marks]

You would not be Offended if you were not convicted,

What bothers me, is not whether someone is insulting or not. I couldn't care less your opinions of me. I care what God's opinion is of me. I don't even bother much with my own opinion of myself. Much less yours!

But the waste of time and energy, well, really, that's a small thing.

More important is our heart as we come to the Bible, and to each other.

I'm trying to offer correction, not out of some sense of feeling the need to defend myself, but because for one thing its very poor form, IMO, to unload your negative opinions of people, and worse form to misrepresent Scripture.

If you want it discuss, respectfully, the Bible, that's one thing. If you want to give your view, and then just dump on people, however tactfully you think you are doing it, that's another and I'm not interested.

Hebrews 10 talks about us having already been made saints. What of it?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Acts 26:13-18
13) At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14) And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15) And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16) But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17) Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18) To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[marks]

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[marks]

1 Peter 1:2
2) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[marks]

Again, you want to narrow something that is far broader than you can imagine,

Again, you are "mind reading", and you aren't doing a good job.

If you think you have to qualify for the status, you are working for it, which introduces legalism into your mindset, which empowers sin.

But when you realize that all you have you have in Christ, you don't work of any of it, and instead enjoy the benefit, including the victory over sin.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

In which will "having been sanctified" we are . . .

"having been sanctified" is here a passive voice, which means it is done to you, not that you do this yourself, and that it is already done, and remains done. We are "having been sanctified", that is, we were sanctified (made saints) and we still are.

I Agree, this is instant sanctification as my OP discusses. Immediately we are justified and declared righteous by the blood of the Lamb and are sanctified. All our sins past present and future have been wiped clean. We Get the Holy Spirit as an earnest and he then begins the work of consecrating us by his work in us, this is progressive sanctification. He is now in the process of turning our heart of stone into a heart of flesh. Transforming us from the inside out, refining us as gold by fire in some cases and bathing us in the sunlight of His love to ripen our fruit.

The path of a saint is what follows being Born again, Add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge temperance, and to temperance, patience, and Godliness, brotherly love and Agape love. That Agape Love is the mark of a saint, one who is ready to be chosen for the saintly sacrifice, this sacrifice can only be made with the motive of Agape love, the obedience to the New commandment which Christ gave to us to love one another as he loved us, to lay down our lives for one another. As Paul puts it, for me to live is Christ, to die is gain. We are not seeking death but are not afraid of this if called to do so.

The Modern church is living in wealth and luxury, devoid of persecution largely. They are for the most part seduced into this sort of lull, and this is Satan's final plan, thinking by seduction he can then overcome us, This is why this error on the saints must be addressed here and now while we have the time. This is why there is urgency in this message for me. The Church is largely asleep because of this one little error of doctrine. They say "i am born again" and that is all there is to the Christian faith, and "I am a saint already". And i am here to tell any who will listen, no you are not. To be a saint is what every true born again believer SHOULD be striving for, Seeking for, For if Paul, the most inspired writer of the New testament considered himself less than the least of the saints, is it not arrogance on our part to think we are greater than Paul?

 

[marks]

That Agape Love is the mark of a saint

I say Sealed by the Holy Spirit is the mark of the saint.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Modern church is living in wealth and luxury, devoid of persecution largely. They are for the most part seduced into this sort of lull,

You don't seem to have much regard for the people of God, or the working of the Holy Spirit in His people.

Do you think I'm afraid to die?

Much love!

 

[marks]

He is now in the process of turning our heart of stone into a heart of flesh. Transforming us from the inside out, refining us as gold by fire in some cases and bathing us in the sunlight of His love to ripen our fruit.

He has already transformed us inside, and is training us to live according to that transformation.

Much love!