"JUSTIFICATION"

[Daniel L.]

See, God didn't say.....>"if you believe in Jesus, and are born again, and then you never again sin, or live a carnal lifestyle, you shall be saved"
Heretics, do say that.
Heretics put conditions on "the GIFT of Salvation"

Lets see the conditions on the "gift" of salvation put by God whom you called a "heretic".

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[MatthewG]

You know how to find the scriptures.

“And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭5:11-13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬



Take care,
God bless,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[Enoch111]

And why dont you tell me about justification, seeing I have no clue about it, but instead leave me in the dark and in ignorance, and reveal nothing to me except: that I "have no clue about justification"?

Since you started out by asserting that it is NOT God who justifies, that means you have already examined justification by grace through faith and REJECTED the truth. So here are the Bible facts which:

1. It is God who is not only just, but also justifies the ungodly.

2. When God justifies a sinner He declares that person to be righteous.

3. At the same time He imputes the righteousness of Christ to that person.

4. Justification is purely by the grace of God through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption PLUS NOTHING.

 

[Daniel L.]

So many folks wanna believe in things that are simply not true .

This is what you call "simply not true" :

Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

you have already examined justification by grace through faith and REJECTED

And you have examined justification by grace through faith and rejected the books of the law and the prophets.

When God justifies a sinner

Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

So, your "When" is never. He will never justify the wicked. The law will not change, His words shall not pass away.

At the same time He imputes the righteousness of Christ to that person.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

So why would He command Israel not to accept gifts, and expect them to accept gifts later ? Impossible.

Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Justification is purely by the grace of God through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption PLUS NOTHING.

"Plus nothing" Says who?

Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That Abraham was not justified by the Law of Moses is obvious, self-evident. That is why it makes no sense at all for a hebrew of hebrews to even consider such an absurdity, every Jew knew very well Abraham could not possibly have been justified by the law of Moses, that is not the argument here, but according to you, all the Jews were somehow convinced Abraham was justified by the law of Moses, and even Paul considers this impossibility, and the reason why he wasnt justified by the law of Moses is because he cant boast, and not because the law wasnt yet given..

So what is Paul doing ?
Is he:
-Trying to convince Jews that Abraham was not justified by the works of the Law of Moses? Which is ridiculous and a waste of time, the Jews would probably laught and say: of course he wasnt, the law of Moses didnt existed then, Duh.
or
-Trying to convince Jews that Abraham was not justified by works in general of the Law of God?

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There are no exeptions: Abraham obeyed all commandmants, statues and Laws of God perfectly. That is why he was blessed.
Which is why Im asking who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

The Jews WERE trying to bind the law of Moses upon the Gentiles claiming Gentiles could not be saved unless they were circumcised (Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2). Therefore Paul used Abraham to show the absurdity of those Jews requiring Gentiles to be circumcised/obey the OT law to be justified that was not even required of Abraham.

 

[Daniel L.]

The Jews WERE trying to bind the law of Moses upon the Gentiles claiming Gentiles could not be saved unless they were circumcised (Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2).

Yes, there were Jews binding the law of Moses on Gentiles, but there were no Jews binding the law of Moses on Abraham.
No one binds, nor can bind, the law of Moses on Abraham, it is impossible. That is why I told you, when Abraham is mention the word: "works" can only mean works in general, not the works of the law of Moses. You cannot consider that Abraham was justified by the law of Moses and be taken seriously at the same time.

And you have the parallel of James as a comparison, when he mentions Abraham:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Offering Isaac upon the altar is a work in general, nothing to do with the law of Moses, so he can only be refering to works in general.

Therefore Paul used Abraham to show the absurdity of those Jews requiring Gentiles to be circumcised/obey the OT law to be justified that was not even required of Abraham.

Paul considered it, evident by the word: "if". So if he knew it was absurd why would he even consider the absurdity himself?
Also, the absurdity is easily refuted by the fact that: the law of Moses was not yet given. So why didnt he used this argument immediatly? But instead had to resort to his "no man can boast" argument?

You see, when Abraham is mention your interpretation of "works" is not possible.

 

[amigo de christo]

This is what you call "simply not true" :

Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.



And you have examined justification by grace through faith and rejected the books of the law and the prophets.



Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

So, your "When" is never. He will never justify the wicked. The law will not change, His words shall not pass away.



Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

So why would He command Israel not to accept gifts, and expect them to accept gifts later ? Impossible.

Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!




"Plus nothing" Says who?

Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

The problem is many are hearers only and many have deceived themselves . Just like i once was decieved .
Ye cannot holller the name of JESUS and yet walk in darkness . HE who does so , does not know the FATHER nor the SON .
A lamb is a hearer and doer of all things JESUS said and taught and later the apostels said and taught .
A lamb loves what GOD loves , fOR GOD has shed the HOLY GHOST upon the heart of those who do believe .
And as paul once warned , WHO WE OBEY , WHO WE SERVE is WHOSE we are , that truth remains .
As JOHN too made mention . HE who says I KNOW HIM yet walks in darkness is a liar and the truth is not in HIM
I should know , I used to live like this , i walked in darkness and loved that sin , yet at times could try and say I had faith in JESUS .
But no , i did not . FOR I DID NOT TRUST IN HIM , and it showed for i did not follow HIM nor love the things of GOD .
PROOF of whose we are is seen in the fruits . And the FRUIT of the wicked IS TO SIN
but the fruit of the Spirit proves that which is Acceptable and WELL PLEASING TO GOD .
A hint , SIN AINT and never has been or ever will be PLEASING TO GOD .
WE must dig and dig deep in those bibles and learn THAT doctrine inspired by GOD and do so well .
For many men have long ago crept in and taught perverse things to draw away desciples after them own selves .
AND THEY ALLURE through the lusts of the flesh . BUT LAMBS HEED THEM NOT , they HEED the VOICE OF THE GREAT SHEPARD .
Its truly a mad house these days . WE must point to JESUS and all sound doctrine . THEY who omit
certain doctrines and claim certain teachings of Christ or those apostles no longer apply to us , ARE DEAD WRONG .
Lambs LOVE TRUTH and TRUTH does not change for sake of society or for men . TRUTH remains .
JESUS CHRIST the same yesterday today and forever . SO let all return again to those bibles and learn the TRUTH well .

 

[Daniel L.]

JESUS CHRIST the same yesterday today and forever .

So why would you agree to someone saying that it is God that justifieth the ungodly? When He said He would not.

Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

You understand what you are agreeing with?

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

You must worship in spirit and in truth. By the way, acording to you, who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

 

[amigo de christo]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 16:17 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Yep GOD draws us to FAITH IN JESUS and CHRIST leads us Home .
Let us examine cornelius once again . cornelius was a gentile beliver of the GOD of the jews .
AND he did many wonderful and good works . Many alms . So much they came up as a memorial before GOD .
Yet cornelius needed one thing . HE had to hear the glorious gosple and believe .
Notice when peter is later explaining to the apostles why he had went into the house of a gentile
exactly what HE said . HE said that man had to hear words whereby HE and has house could be saved .
SAVED .
OH yes he had to come to Faith in JESUS . And cornelius was led to that Faith .
GOD dont lead us to belief in other religions or mindsets , NO when HE draws one , ITS TO BELIEF , TO FAITH IN CHRIST .
LET us remember this , cause we have us a dangerous adversary , the devil who is roaring about
and has infected men with the lie that all religoins , all paths , all mindsets are fine and God accepts these other religoins .
WHEN in truth GOD has never and will never share His glory , HIS GLORY IS CHRIST , with another god , a false religoin .
As we see with even cornelius . BELIEF IN JESUS alone is what is saves . GOD has chosen HOW to save the world
and the popes nor any other man can try and add to or take from this plan .
If anyone wants salvation , BELEIVE YE IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND , THAT IS IN JESUS CHRIST and ye shall be saved
but belief in another god or faith or religoin , WELL prepare for the second death , cause that is the end
of all who believed a lie and did not come to the saving truth , the saving faith of JESUS CHRIST .
I am sticking to the only gospel that can save one . All else is reaping to the wind and all who reap to the wind
reap not eternal life , but rather the whirlwind .

 

[amigo de christo]

So why would you agree to someone saying that it is God that justifieth the ungodly? When He said He would not.

Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

You understand what you are agreeing with?

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

You must worship in spirit and in truth. By the way, acording to you, who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

We were all ungodly . Aint one here who was not ungodly .
But how does God justify or whom does he justify , THOSE WHO COME TO CHRIST .
YES they are changed and no longer desire the evils of the flesh .
But remember Christ died for the ungodly and reconciled us to HIMSELF when we were yet dead in our sins
NOW being reconciled we live unto GOD by The FAITIH OF CHRIST . I DO agree that GOD wont be mocked .
If one claims to know Christ and yet walks in darkness , they lie . What we sow too we shall indeed reap .
And who we obey is proof of whose we truly are .
I was not agreeing that GOD justifies those who repent not and come not to CHRIST ,
rather that while we were dead in our sins is WHEN CHRIST DIED FOR US . We were enemies once .
We are justified by Faith in Christ . IT is the glorious work of grace , the grace of GOD that drew us to saving faith in Christ
and we are kept in this grace by our faith in Christ . Endure to the end , having all faith , hope , and trust in CHRIST .
Lambs are taught to keep ourselves from evil , BY the indwelling HOLY GHOST who teaches us , consoles us
and leads and guides us into all truth of our glorious LORD .
One thing i do know and that by grace , ONE IS SAVED BY GRACE , IT IS A GIFT , Let glory and boast in GOD alone , in Christ alone .

 

[michaelvpardo]

Isaiah 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.



What is the problem with starting a thread on a public forum, even if I have no clue about the subject, I should gain knowledge from the brethren, if Im wrong we can discuss and correct, there are many positive reasons to ask and discuss with others, every one knows something I dont. This would be a good place to educate myself in the midst of so many brothers, right? And why dont you tell me about justification, seeing I have no clue about it, but instead leave me in the dark and in ignorance, and reveal nothing to me except: that I "have no clue about justification"?



Sinners who have repented, are no longer sinners. So he justifies the past/former/retired sinners, not the sinners.



I have read Paul already, your post has 4 verses and 2 insults to my intelligence, what am I supposed to understand?
There is no premisse, no objection I dont know if you are Universalist or what, I dont want to misrepresent you.

I'll apologize for being curt and not willing to teach a lesson in yet another discussion about the same topic. However, if you do a search on the site for just titles using the word "justification " as your search parameter, you'll find two pages of threads or blogs specifically discussing justification. Did you read them before presuming to teach on the subject?
Do you actually believe that learning is accomplished by argument?
Or do you believe that after 2000 years you have found something new in scripture that negates the doctrine of justification by faith?

 

[Taken]

So who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

To Justify means:

Secularly -
To show or prove to be true, right.

Spiritually -
To declare or make righteous in the sight of God.

So who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

Certainly men “justify” men and circumstances and acts.
However your question is about “justifying” SINNERS.

I would say the final JUDGE is the ONE who decides and pronounces IF and WHEN a sinner is justified, or not.

I would say the final JUDGE is the ONE who takes in account ALL testimony, books, records, to conclude His decision and pronouncement.

I would say the final JUDGE, of ALL celestials and ALL terrestrials;
is the ONE Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Daniel L.]

cornelius was a gentile

Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

BELIEF IN JESUS alone is what is saves

You started off well, knowing that Cornelius was righteous, so the only thing he was missing was belief on Christ. So why do you then, ignore all the righteous works of Cornelius to say that "Belief in Jesus alone" is what saved him?

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

The reason why Cornelius was immediatly blessed with the Holy Spirit, upon believing, is because he was already righteous, he only needed faith, so when he believed both faith and works were present in him, and his true faith saved him.

Did you read them before presuming to teach on the subject?

No, do any of those threads tell me who justifes the ungodly?

Or do you believe that after 2000 years you have found something new in scripture that negates the doctrine of justification by faith?

No, there is nothing new under the sun, at the time of Christ there were some who already knew who "justifies" the ungodly, the thing is people forget and start to slumber, and they need to be reminded, lest they fall a sleep because of the so many years.

I would say the final JUDGE is the ONE who decides and pronounces IF and WHEN a sinner is justified, or not.
I would say the final JUDGE is the ONE who takes in account ALL testimony, books, records, to conclude His decision and pronouncement.
I would say the final JUDGE, of ALL celestials and ALL terrestrials;
is the ONE Lord God Almighty.

We both agree the "Final Judge" of "all celestials and terrestrials" who has all knoledge, to "decide" is "the ONE Lord God Almighty."
The only problem is that the same ONE LORD God Almighty said:

Exodus 23:7 [...] I will not justify the wicked.
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

So, unless you want to break His Word and blaspheme, it cannot possibly be Him. That is why im asking who is it?

Who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

 

[Taken]

We both agree the "Final Judge" of "all celestials and terrestrials" who has all knoledge, to "decide" is "the ONE Lord God Almighty."
The only problem is that the same ONE LORD God Almighty said:

Exodus 23:7 [...] I will not justify the wicked.
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

So, unless you want to break His Word and blaspheme, it cannot possibly be Him. That is why im asking who is it?

No need to imply an accusation of blasphemy toward me, especially based on your Opinion.

Who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

SIN is AGAINST God....AGAINST the Lord God Almighty, regardless of what Name or Title or Description He is called.

Earthly born men go through Phases, “learning ABOUT everything, INCLUDING God”, bit by bit, little by little.. (IOW earthy men are NOT naturally born knowing one iota ABOUT what anything IS, including what A god IS, let alone WHO God is.)

As an earthly born (babe) man, hears, sees, smells, touches, tastes, eats....he BEGINS learning. Even a babe, will CLING to what he LIKES...
And reject what he DOES NOT LIKE.

It is DURING that “LEARNING period”, men MAKE choices.
Believe this to day, Believe something more to tomorrow, Change your MIND, and Believe something Opposite to what you DID Believe.

God Desires All of His Creations TO LEARN ABOUT HIM....and Choose to BELIEVE IN Him. And men do. Believe today, Doubt tomorrow, Believe the next day, Deny tomorrow, Believe Again, Doubt Again, Believe....
AND what about it?
WHY the vacillating?
BECAUSE that IS Precisely what A MIND of man DOES.
It’s called weighing between this knowledge and that knowledge, and choosing what makes the MOST LOGICAL SENSE “at that moment”.

**** What DO men Require? To use your most Sensible LOGICAL MINDFUL KNOWLEDGE to PROVE something RIGHT? TRUE? Yes!

**** What DOES God Require? That a man CONFESS his LOGICAL MINDFUL CONCLUSION of BELIEF “IN” Him? No!

**** God Requires a man to CONFESS his TRUE HEARTFUL BELIEF “IN” Him.
Precisely because the MIND DOES vacillate, waver, change, based on LOGICAL SENSIBILITY between “This or That”.

**** God Requires a man TRUE Heartful Confession, AVOIDING, the possibility of “THIS OR THAT”.

Who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

Who Has the POWER TO CHANGE a SINNER, from a SINNER, TO a FORGIVEN SINNER and ACCOUNT that FORGIVEN Sinner... JUSTIFIED?

My answer remains the Same.....The Lord God Almighty.

 

[Taken]

The only problem is that the same ONE LORD God Almighty said:

Exodus 23:7 [...] I will not justify the wicked.
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

There is NO PROBLEM.
There is KNOWLEDGE of WHAT IS, and WHAT can be.

God WILL NOT justify the Wicked, As he stands in his Wickedness.
Be Wicked, Remain Wicked, Receive NOT Gods Justification.

Be Wicked, Repent, Receive Forgiveness, God Himself Holds the Power to Forgive.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, there were Jews binding the law of Moses on Gentiles, but there were no Jews binding the law of Moses on Abraham.
No one binds, nor can bind, the law of Moses on Abraham, it is impossible. That is why I told you, when Abraham is mention the word: "works" can only mean works in general, not the works of the law of Moses. You cannot consider that Abraham was justified by the law of Moses and be taken seriously at the same time.

And you have the parallel of James as a comparison, when he mentions Abraham:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Offering Isaac upon the altar is a work in general, nothing to do with the law of Moses, so he can only be refering to works in general.



Paul considered it, evident by the word: "if". So if he knew it was absurd why would he even consider the absurdity himself?
Also, the absurdity is easily refuted by the fact that: the law of Moses was not yet given. So why didnt he used this argument immediatly? But instead had to resort to his "no man can boast" argument?

You see, when Abraham is mention your interpretation of "works" is not possible.

Jews binding the law of Moses upon Abraham was not the argument, no such thing is even said by Paul. The Jews were binding the law of Moses upon Gentiles and Paul showed that those Jews were requiring something of the Gentiles to be justified that was not even required of Abraham. Paul clearly is refuting those Jews argument that the Gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved.

James 2:21 the type of work in this verse that Abraham did and justified was the work of obedience in doing as God said in offering Isaac. It was not the works of flawless, sinless law keeping. Hence a simple faithful obedience to God does save while trying to work to keep the law perfectly will not for one will not be able to keep it perfectly.

According to Hebrews 11:8; Hebrews 11:17 Abraham DID DO WORKS, he did obedient works in moving from his land house and kindred and offering Isaac as God commanded him. The fact he did those works is indisputable. Therefore LOGICALLY the "worketh not" cannot, does not include works Abraham DID but works he did not do and the work he did not do was the work of trying to keep the law perfectly, flawlessly.

In the context of Rom 4:5;
--the worker is the one working to be accepted by God by keeping the law perfectly, flawlessly.
--The one who worketh not is the sinner, the one who is not keeping God's law.
--the believer is the one who gains acceptance by God by obeying God's will, not perfectly because he will sin but repents of those sins and God forgives

Abraham was not the worker in trying to gain acceptance with God by perfect flawless law keeping. He was not the disobedient non-worker who would not obey Gods' commands but he was the obedient believer that obeyed God and thereby gained acceptance with God by his obedience.
Meaning "worketh not" cannot logically mean "obeyeth not" when Abraham did for a fact OBEY and was justified by those obedient works.

Paul therefore in this context establishes justification is by faithful obedience NOT by flawless law keeping and thereby agrees with James:

James 2:24-----------works-obedience>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justified
Rom 6:17-18-------obey from the heart >>>>>>>>>>>>>> justified/freed from sin

 

[marks]

The sinner who repents and obeys God is justified, keep in mind a sinner who repents is no longer a sinner, but righteous who obeys God, so it is the righteous man that it is justified, not the sinner.

Repentance does not remove sin.

God justifies the ungodly.

You are not allowed to decide for yourself who lives and who dies, but God is. When a man justifies the ungodly he perverts justice. When God justifies the ungodly He gives grace to the sinner.

Much love!

 

[Daniel L.]

Who Has the POWER TO CHANGE a SINNER, from a SINNER, TO a FORGIVEN SINNER and ACCOUNT that FORGIVEN Sinner... JUSTIFIED?
My answer remains the Same.....The Lord God Almighty.

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

God cannot remit the sins of the unrepentant, neither can He rettain the sins of the repentant.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

God will not repent for you. Also the word of God is not my opinion, I presented you with the verses, you didnt explained how my opinion is wrong, so if your answer is still the same, it is from your own understanding not from Scripture, since you didnt present me with a single verse so far.

God justifies the ungodly.

There is only One God, the Mighty One of Israel who said:
Exodus 23:7 [...] I will not justify the wicked.
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

So if you say He does what He said He would not do:
-You go against the Word of God, and lose, for His witness is greater than yours.
-You condemn Him as an abomination, and are found a liar, for He is perfect.

Be Wicked, Repent, Receive Forgiveness, God Himself Holds the Power to Forgive.

--the believer is the one who gains acceptance by God by obeying God's will, not perfectly because he will sin but repents of those sins and God forgives

Yes, He alone can forgive sins, the sins of those who repent, that is. And those who repent are no longer sinners, but are past/retired/former-sinners, cleansed from all unrighteousness, therefore God justifies the righteous not the wicked.

Jews binding the law of Moses upon Abraham was not the argument, no such thing is even said by Paul.

Exactly, thank you. The law of Moses cannot be bound to Abraham.

Therefore LOGICALLY the "worketh not" cannot, does not include works Abraham DID but works he did not do and the work he did not do was the work of trying to keep the law perfectly, flawlessly.

So, you just admitted no one can bind the law of Moses on Abraham, and then move on to bind the law of Moses on Abraham? And say the "worketh not" refers to "keep the law perfectly"? I assume you mean the law of Moses, in which case you have a contradiction.
And if you meant the law of God you go against the witness of the Word of God who testifies, without exception, the perfect obedience of Abraham:

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Remember: Abraham is mentioned and is then compared to "him that worketh not" connecting the "worketh not" to Abraham and therefore excluding the possibility of it to be refering to the law of Moses as you understand. Like I told you:
Believe it or not, Paul is actually teaching justified by faith alone, without works in general, so no man can boast.

Meaning "worketh not" cannot logically mean "obeyeth not" when Abraham did for a fact OBEY and was justified by those obedient works.

I know, right? The "worketh not" cannot mean "obeyeth not" without it beeing a lie, right? Hence my question..

Repentance does not remove sin.

Yes it does, I mean God does remove the sins of those who repent of course:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Ezekiel 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

 

[Taken]

So if you say He does what He said He would not do:

I didn’t. So what is your point ?

So, you just admitted no one can bind the law of Moses on Abraham, and then move on to bind the law of Moses on Abraham?

I said no such thing.

I assume ...

I see you do make assumptions.

God provides mankind with knowledge....believe it or not.
God provides mankind with knowledge....do it or not.
God provides mankind A WAY....to be WITH Him or not....make your election.
That simple.

 

[Daniel L.]

I didn’t.

Well, my bad, you said "I would say":

I would say the final JUDGE, of ALL celestials and ALL terrestrials;
is the ONE Lord God Almighty.

And I said "If" so I guess neither of us really said anything then, right? So, when I rebuked you the first time why would you say:

My answer remains the Same.....The Lord God Almighty.

I guess this time you really said something didnt you? So much so that I had to rebuke you a second time, then you changed to:

God WILL NOT justify the Wicked

Which is the best thing you could do, repent, and you did well.