"JUSTIFICATION"

[Daniel L.]

First let me show you a verse from Brenton's Septuagint Translation:
Exodus 23:7 Thou shalt abstain from every unjust thing: thou shalt not slay the innocent and just, and thou shalt not justify the wicked for gifts.

In this translation it is a commandment, to not justify the wicked. And "for gifts" is a reference to bribery. As we should not accept "free gifts" they are bribery. 8"Do not accept bribe[...]". At least in this context of justification.

In NLT it reads: "[...]I never declare a guilty person to be innocent." The "I" is refering to the God of Israel, and in other translations it says He will not justify the wicked.

And this "wicked" is anyone who breaks God's Law: sinners, guilty, ungodly are all synonyms commonly used, and can be found in Strong's. These are the people God won't justify.
Woe to them:
Isaiah 5:22 Woe to the strong ones of you that drink wine, and the mighty ones that mingle strong drink:
23who justify the ungodly for rewards, and take away the righteousness of the righteous.

Here we see that, it is the sinners that justify the ungodly, not God, and these sinners justify the ungodly "for rewards" or for a bribe.

We also have this verse from NASB:
Proverbs 17:15 One who justifies the wicked and one who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

It is evident the true God of Israel will not justify the sinner, neither the wicked, nor the ungodly. Not only that, but anyone who does, is probably a sinner who did it for a reward, and are an abomination to the LORD.

And now we have this verse, I took from Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not labor, but believes only in The One who justifies sinners, is his faith accounted for righteousness.

Excuse me, what? "The One who justifies sinners"? Who would that be?
Surely it isn't the God of Israel, who said He will not justify sinners, and He cannot contradict Himself.
Keep in mind this is to "the one who does not labor" meaning the sinners who do not keep the works of the Law, like the commandments. To them it is "credited" righteousness, almost like a "free gift", reminds me of bribery. And all they have to do is believe on "the one who justifies sinners".

So who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

First let me show you a verse from Brenton's Septuagint Translation:
Exodus 23:7 Thou shalt abstain from every unjust thing: thou shalt not slay the innocent and just, and thou shalt not justify the wicked for gifts.

In this translation it is a commandment, to not justify the wicked. And "for gifts" is a reference to bribery. As we should not accept "free gifts" they are bribery. 8"Do not accept bribe[...]". At least in this context of justification.

In NLT it reads: "[...]I never declare a guilty person to be innocent." The "I" is refering to the God of Israel, and in other translations it says He will not justify the wicked.

And this "wicked" is anyone who breaks God's Law: sinners, guilty, ungodly are all synonyms commonly used, and can be found in Strong's. These are the people God won't justify.
Woe to them:
Isaiah 5:22 Woe to the strong ones of you that drink wine, and the mighty ones that mingle strong drink:
23who justify the ungodly for rewards, and take away the righteousness of the righteous.

Here we see that, it is the sinners that justify the ungodly, not God, and these sinners justify the ungodly "for rewards" or for a bribe.

We also have this verse from NASB:
Proverbs 17:15 One who justifies the wicked and one who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

It is evident the true God of Israel will not justify the sinner, neither the wicked, nor the ungodly. Not only that, but anyone who does, is probably a sinner who did it for a reward, and are an abomination to the LORD.

And now we have this verse, I took from Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not labor, but believes only in The One who justifies sinners, is his faith accounted for righteousness.

Excuse me, what? "The One who justifies sinners"? Who would that be?
Surely it isn't the God of Israel, who said He will not justify sinners, and He cannot contradict Himself.
Keep in mind this is to "the one who does not labor" meaning the sinners who do not keep the works of the Law, like the commandments. To them it is "credited" righteousness, almost like a "free gift", reminds me of bribery. And all they have to do is believe on "the one who justifies sinners".

So who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

The Ten Commandments could not make anyone righteous, because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Even if they keep the letter of the law, the 10th commandment is easily broken (coveting), because that is in our mind, and they still had their sin nature, called "the old man." Romans 6:6-7 shows us that through our believing in Jesus, our old man was crucified with Christ so that we would no longer have to be a slave to sin, but a slave to righteousness.

Jesus came to TAKE AWAY OUR SIN, AND IN HIM THERE IS NO SIN. 1 John 3:5-9. So your answer is Jesus. Read from Romans 6:1 through Romans 8:9. You will see that Romans 7 shows what it was like under the law, that sin was still in them. Then Romans 8 shows that the Holy Spirit residing inside of us causes us to be sinless.

 

[Ezra]

So who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

Jesus paid the price on the cross you appear to be wanting to justify the lost? we are justified the moment we get saved Declared Righteous not guilty just as if we had never sinned slate /debt paid in full by the Blood by grace by faith we are justified .better question who is the justifier ?

Jesus

 

[Enoch111]

So who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

Read your Bible for the answer: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted [imputed] for righteousness... Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. (Rom 4:5;8:33)

There are many who call themselves Christians but do not believe that justification is by grace through faith. God's grace and the sinner's faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. So do you or do you not believe the above Scriptures?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And now we have this verse, I took from Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not labor, but believes only in The One who justifies sinners, is his faith accounted for righteousness.

1) Rom 4:5 does not teach justification by 'belief only', men assume the word "only" into the verse.

2) Nor can it be assumed God unconditionally justifies the ungodly. Paul goes on to say in v6 "blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works". In the context, the "works" Paul speaks of are flawless, perfect law keeping. So how does God justify the sinner apart from perfect, flawless law keeping? Paul tells us in verses 7-8 how God justifies the sinner (the ungodly of v5): "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin."
The one whose iniquities are forgiven and sins covered (justified) is the one who obeys God by repenting, as David was obedient in repenting of his sins. God will not justify the impenitent (Romans 2:4-5). Hence the sinner/ungodly who turns to obey God, then God will not reckon sin unto their account but God reckons righteousness to their account-justifies. Therefore God does not unconditionally justify the ungodly/sinner by just overlooking or disregarding their sins but forgives the sinner/ungodly who obeys Christ (Hebrews 5:9) having their sin washed away by the blood of Christ.

Paul goes on in Rom 4 to prove to the Jew that this justification comes apart from circumcision, that is, apart from the law of Moses which required perfect, flawless law keeping to be justified. For Abraham was reckoned righteous in UNcircumcision, reckoned righteous apart from the law of Moses. Hence it is not by the work of perfect, flawless law keeping the ungodly will be justified but by an obedient faith as Abraham and David both possessed....God justifies all those who "also walk (obey) in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham", v12

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Then Romans 8 shows that the Holy Spirit residing inside of us causes us to be sinless.

Sure is mean of God to Chastise His Children as He has promised to do if they are “ sinless”, don’t ya think ?

 

[Daniel L.]

The Ten Commandments could not make anyone righteous

The LORD disagrees:
Genesis 7:1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

King Davi disagrees:
Psalm 18:21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.

Abraham, Lot, Job, Enoch, from Abel to Zacharias, John the Baptist and their parents, and of course Our LORD Jesus Christ and His parents were all righteous before the LORD.

Read your Bible for the answer

So your answer is Jesus.

Jesus

Jesus only does the will of the Father, and the commandment He got from the Father is:
Exodus 23:7: [...] thou shalt not justify the wicked for gifts.

Also Jesus is not an abomination:
Proverbs 17:15 One who justifies the wicked and one who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

So do you or do you not believe the above Scriptures?

So, do you believe the above Scriptures? ( Exodus 23:7 ; Proverbs 17:15 )

1) Rom 4:5 does not teach justification by 'belief only', men assume the word "only" into the verse.

Read the verse again but slowly, pay attention when it says: "the one who does not labour, but believes only":
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not labor, but believes only in The One who justifies sinners, is his faith accounted for righteousness.

In the context, the "works" Paul speaks of are flawless, perfect law keeping.

In context Paul mentions Abraham along with works, which could not possible mean "perfect obedience to the Law of Moses" because Moses wasnt even born at the time of Abraham. So in the verses were Abraham is mentioned Paul can only mean works in general as we normally understand it, nothing to do with the Law of Moses who wasnt yet written.

Hence the sinner/ungodly who turns to obey God, then God will not reckon sin unto their account but God reckons righteousness to their account-justifies.

Therefore God does not unconditionally justify the ungodly/sinner by just overlooking or disregarding their sins but forgives the sinner/ungodly who obeys Christ

You seem to agree with me: The sinner who repents and obeys God is justified, keep in mind a sinner who repents is no longer a sinner, but righteous who obeys God, so it is the righteous man that it is justified, not the sinner.
The sinner is born of flesh and crucified. The righteous is a new creation, born of God, total oposites.

For Abraham was reckoned righteous in UNcircumcision, reckoned righteous apart from the law of Moses. Hence it is not by the work of perfect, flawless law keeping the ungodly will be justified but by an obedient faith as Abraham and David both possessed.

You have a point here: a man is indeed justified apart from the works of the Law of Moses, but not apart from works in general of the Law of God, and this is where your interpretation of "works" as perfect obedience to the Law of Moses, fails you.
Because Abraham was blessed:

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Here we have righteous Abraham keeping the Law of God, way before Moses walked the earth. So any time Abraham appear in the same verse as the word "works" your interpretation of perfect obedience to the Law of Moses is discarded as impossible.

Also, Repentance is a work saith the LORD:
Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; [...]

 

[Ezra]

Then Romans 8 shows that the Holy Spirit residing inside of us causes us to be sinless.

Sure is mean of God to Chastise His Children as He has promised to do if they are “ sinless”, don’t ya think ?

so your saying we can never sin? i dont want to misjudge you

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Read the verse again but slowly, pay attention when it says: "the one who does not labour, but believes only":
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not labor, but believes only in The One who justifies sinners, is his faith accounted for righteousness.

The word "only" is not in the verse, "belief" and "belief only" are two completely different things. From the context, the "works" Paul speaks of that do not justify is the work of flawless law keeping NOT obedience to God's will. When comparing John 3:16 with Luke 13:3 we can easily see all the belief only in the world can NEVER save anyone who refuses to repent.

In context Paul mentions Abraham along with works, which could not possible mean "perfect obedience to the Law of Moses" because Moses wasnt even born at the time of Abraham. So in the verses were Abraham is mentioned Paul can only mean works in general as we normally understand it, nothing to do with the Law of Moses who wasnt yet written.

In the context of Romans, Romans 1 Paul proves Gentiles are sinners. Romans 2 Paul proves Jews are sinners and declares all, Jew and Gentile, are under sin and those under sin are in need of justification. Paul spends the first part of Romans 3 telling us what does NOT justify that being the law of Moses that was given to the Jews that required the work of flawless, perfect law keeping. Therefore Abraham was not justified by the law of Moses for 1) he sinned and did not keep the law perfectly and 2) he did not live under that law. So how was he justified? By an obedient faith as Paul tells us in the last part of Romans 3 that faith, NOT faith only, justifies. Paul says what justifies is faith APART from the works of the law, obedient faith apart from those perfect, flawless deeds required by the law of Moses (Romans 3:28).

Therefore when Paul said Abraham "worketh not", the only work Paul eliminated in the first 3 chapters of Romans was the work of perfect, flawless law keeping, Paul NEVER eliminated obedience from justification ("obedience unto righteousness" Romans 6:16). "Worketh not" therefore only eliminates the work of perfect flawless law keeping for Abraham DID DO OBEDIENT WORKS, (Hebrews 11:8; Hebrews 11:17)

You seem to agree with me: The sinner who repents and obeys God is justified, keep in mind a sinner who repents is no longer a sinner, but righteous who obeys God, so it is the righteous man that it is justified, not the sinner.
The sinner is born of flesh and crucified. The righteous is a new creation, born of God, total oposites.



You have a point here: a man is indeed justified apart from the works of the Law of Moses, but not apart from works in general of the Law of God, and this is where your interpretation of "works" as perfect obedience to the Law of Moses, fails you.
Because Abraham was blessed:

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Here we have righteous Abraham keeping the Law of God, way before Moses walked the earth. So any time Abraham appear in the same verse as the word "works" your interpretation of perfect obedience to the Law of Moses is discarded as impossible.

Also, Repentance is a work saith the LORD:
Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; [...]

Yes, you quoted a verse that clearly states that Abraham obeyed God and as James said, Abraham was justified by his obedient works. Therefore "worketh not" of Romans 4:5 cannot logically exclude obedient works for Abraham DID have obedient works. Hence "worketh not" means Abraham did not find justification by working to keep the law flawless, sinlessly perfect but instead was justified by an obedient faith.

In the book of Galatians, Paul condemned those Christians for leaving the gospel and going back to the OT law in doing so they fell from grace and was following a false gospel. In condemning them of going back to the OT law, Paul told them that law required perfect, flawless law keeping of the "WHOLE" law (Galatians 5:3) and "Cursed is every one that continueth not in ALL THINGS which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10). Paul goes on to point out that OT law was "not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them" (Galatians 3:12). The law was 'not of faith" for faith did not matter under the OT law when it came to justification. What mattered was what you did in working to keeping the WHOLE law perfectly, flawlessly. Therefore "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God" (Galatians 3:10) for the Jew could not keep ALL of it perfectly, flawlessly, sinlessly.
"The Law did not even require faith, as seen in the quotation Paul gave here from Leviticus 18:5, the meaning of which may be paraphrased, "No matter about faith; do the Law and live." This was the essence of Judaism." Coffman Comm.

 

[Daniel L.]

Hence "worketh not" means Abraham did not find justification by working to keep the law flawless

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

So you are telling me that Paul is considering Abraham beeing justified by perfectly keeping the Law of one of his son´s unborn son that was still unknown to him and was yet to be written? This is irrational and cannot be considered as an interpretation by anyone.
I told you when Abraham is mentioned, your interpretation of "works" is dismantled.

You would have to break context at verse 4 and start again as if it were another book, just to be able to change back to your interpretation of "works" as beeing the perfect keeping of the Law of Moses. And you cannot do this because Romans 4:5 [...] his faith is accounted for righteousness" relates back to Abraham in Romans 4:3 [...] “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

So, since Romans 4:5 is a comparison to Abraham, and the "works" of Abraham are not the works of the law of Moses, who was not yet written. Then the "worketh not" is refering to works in general, just like Abraham who only had works in general, not the law of Moses.

Believe it or not, Paul is actually teaching faith alone without works in general, so no man can boast.
And that is why Im asking: who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

so your saying we can never sin? i dont want to misjudge you

We were born sinners and we are going to die sinners....( if nothing else , remember all of those “ Sins Of Omission) Some Confused People say that they have reached a level in their Walk Of Faith where they never sin anymore ....that’s strange— even Paul admitted that he never arrived to the level that he should have.....

These people are not close to God, because the “closer” you to God, the farther away you see yourself as being.....That makes me very close to God because I KNOW that I am light- years away from being anything like Him...I thank Him for His Grace.....that’s the only hope that I have....

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

So you are telling me that Paul is considering Abraham beeing justified by perfectly keeping the Law of one of his son´s unborn son that was still unknown to him and was yet to be written? This is irrational and cannot be considered as an interpretation by anyone.
I told you when Abraham is mentioned, your interpretation of "works" is dismantled.

You would have to break context at verse 4 and start again as if it were another book, just to be able to change back to your interpretation of "works" as beeing the perfect keeping of the Law of Moses. And you cannot do this because Romans 4:5 [...] his faith is accounted for righteousness" relates back to Abraham in Romans 4:3 [...] “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

So, since Romans 4:5 is a comparison to Abraham, and the "works" of Abraham are not the works of the law of Moses, who was not yet written. Then the "worketh not" is refering to works in general, just like Abraham who only had works in general, not the law of Moses.

Believe it or not, Paul is actually teaching faith alone without works in general, so no man can boast.
And that is why Im asking: who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

In Romans 4 Paul used 2 men well known to the Jews and proved to the Jews those men were NOT justified by the law of Moses but by an obedient faith. Thereby proving that keeping that OT law does not justify, justification is apart from circumcision. At that time, Jews had become Christian converts but would not let go of that OT law, that still tried to bind circumcision saying Gentiles could not be saved unless they were circumcised (Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2). Paul was simply proving that OT law cannot justify for it required one to work to keep ALL of it perfectly (Galatians 3:10; Galatians 5:3) but rather an obedient faith is what justifies as both Abraham and David possessed. Neither man was justified by the OT law for both sinned, neither keep it perfectly.

Therefore Paul uses Abraham to prove to the Jew he was NOT justified by perfect law keeping:
Romans 4:1 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh?" Paul's point here is what did Abraham gain by his own flesh, gain by his own efforts, did he justify himself by his own works? Of course not!! Abraham did not keep the law perfectly, he sinned therefore not justified by his own efforts in keeping the law perfectly.

Romans 4:2 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God."
Abraham WAS justified by his obedient works per James 2, therefore "works" in this verse CANNOT be referring to obedient works. Your 'logic' fails here. Hence Paul in this context of Rom 4 is making a CONTRAST between "works" and "obedience". The "works" in this verse refers to the works of perfect law keeping as required by the law of Moses. If Abraham could by his own efforts keep God's law perfectly, sinlessly then he would have merited his justification and could have boasted in those perfect works. Yet Abraham did not keep God's law perfectly therefore had nothing to boast about. Rather Abraham had an obedient faith and was justified by his obedient works. No one's obedience to God will be perfect so no one can boast about their imperfect obedience.

Therefore "worketh not" of v5 CANNOT eliminate obedience for:

1) Paul required obedience in order to be justified (Romans 6:16-18) and Paul does not contradict himself going from Rom 4 to Rom 6.

2) "worketh not" does eliminate perfect flawless law keeping keeping for if one could by his own effort keep the law perfectly then his reward is owed to him and not of grace for those who keep the law perfectly have no sin therefore need no grace (Romans 4:4). NOWHERE EVER does the Bible define obedience to God as a work of merit by which one earns God's free gift.

3) all the belief only in the world cannot save those who will not obey in repenting (Luke 13:3)

Luther's faith only theory dies right here on anyone of these 3 points.

 

[MatthewG]

Sin being paid for by Jesus was a free gift he decided to do by his own freewill in concordance with the Fathers over all Will. Which was to bring forth the good news to all people, as all had their sins paid for when Jesus had died, was buried and raised again. The nation of Israel however (who was given the Law of Moses), had the wrath of God poured out on them, by 70 Ad which Jesus had foretold to that generation in that day and time which Jesus would return to get his bride who would see him return to get them.


“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:1-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


God bless, in Christ
Matthew Gallagher

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

In Rom chapters 1 and 2 Paul proves all, Jew and Gentile, have sinned are in need of justification. Paul spends the first half or Rom 3 telling us the OT law given to the Jew does not provide the justification sinners are in need of for that law required the work of perfect, flawless law keeping. Paul tells us at the end of Rom 3 what does justify and that is faith (not faith only).

Romans 4:5 is simply a restatement of what Paul says in Romans 3:

Rom 3 ------ perfect works required by the OT law does not justify >>>>>>>>>> but faith does justifies
Rom 4:4 --- Abraham 'worketh not' in keeping the law perfectly >>>>>>>>>>> but believed and was justified

Again, nowhere in any of this did Paul eliminate obedience from justification nor ever classify obedience to God's will as a work of merit one could boast about but CONTRASTED obedience that does justify (Rom 6) from the work of perfect flawless law keeping the OT law required that does not justify for the Jew could not keep it perfectly.

So, since Romans 4:5 is a comparison to Abraham, and the "works" of Abraham are not the works of the law of Moses, who was not yet written. Then the "worketh not" is refering to works in general, just like Abraham who only had works in general, not the law of Moses.

Paul was not limiting himself to just the law of Moses but ANY law that requires perfect flawless law keeping keeping cannot justify. Paul's point in Rom 4 was to move the Jews away from the OT law to NT by proving to them that the father of the Jews was not justified by the OT law then why should the Jews think they can be justified by that law? One, Abraham was not justified by perfect law keeping but by an obedient faith. Two, Abraham was justified in UNcircumcision apart from the law of Moses further proving to the Jew justification comes APART from the OT law and its required perfect law keeping.

Using these 2 points, Paul proves beyond any doubt justification does NOT come by the OT law requiring perfect law keeping for 1) Abraham did not keep the law perfectly 2) was Abraham NOT even under the OT law but justified apart from that OT law.

 

[Behold]

Rebellion against God's word, is what separated Adam's spirit from God's Spirit.

Adam "fell", which means, he was at a higher place, and fell from it.
The higher place, is a spiritual place....its this...."the MOST HIGH".......this is God.
He is Spiritually "the MOST HIGH", and Adam was a part of God's Spirit, and fell from this spiritual union, position....status.

For us to become a Son of God, as Adam was, before he fell......spiritually..... the issue that is keeping us from Spiritual Union with God, (As Adam had) has to be RESOLVED.

This is our SIN.
Our SIN, is keeping our SPIRIT from becoming "ONE WITH GOD", as Adam had it before he sinned.

Jesus, who is God, the Most High, in human flesh, died on THE Cross, shedding His Holy Blood, that is God's blood, so that all our sin is dealt with by GOD.
See that?
That is GOD, as Christ on THE Cross, dealing with all your sin.
Because GOD dealt with it, it is eternally dealt with, as God is eternal, and His sacrifice is eternal........that has been applied to you, if you are born again SPIRITUALLY, and not just water baptized.

God does this by forgiving all your sin, based on His shed blood and DEATH, and then, having done that, God births you into His Holy Spirit, by His Holy Spirit. = "born again". Spiritually.

And now, you are in there, as BORN AGAIN....Spiritually.

Adam had no CHRIST on the Cross to forgive his sin......We DO. And this shed blood of GOD, is a one time eternal payment, and pays for ETERNITY.......not just past sins, but for eternity you have been "made righteous".
A born again believer, is become..."the righteousness of GOD, in Christ".

Let say that day after you are born again, you mess up.
So what about that thing you did?

God does not see it on you. God does not hold it against you in eternity.
Romans 4:8
Why?
Because the Blood of God, shed as Christ on the Cross, it a one time ETERNAL resolution that maintains your righteousness, = your "justification".

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

So you are telling me that Paul is considering Abraham beeing justified by perfectly keeping the Law of one of his son´s unborn son that was still unknown to him and was yet to be written? This is irrational and cannot be considered as an interpretation by anyone.
I told you when Abraham is mentioned, your interpretation of "works" is dismantled.

You would have to break context at verse 4 and start again as if it were another book, just to be able to change back to your interpretation of "works" as beeing the perfect keeping of the Law of Moses. And you cannot do this because Romans 4:5 [...] his faith is accounted for righteousness" relates back to Abraham in Romans 4:3 [...] “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

So, since Romans 4:5 is a comparison to Abraham, and the "works" of Abraham are not the works of the law of Moses, who was not yet written. Then the "worketh not" is refering to works in general, just like Abraham who only had works in general, not the law of Moses.

Believe it or not, Paul is actually teaching faith alone without works in general, so no man can boast.
And that is why Im asking: who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

--Again, Paul was proving to the Jews that justification does NOT come by the OT law that required the work perfect, flawless law keeping to be justified.

--Paul used Abraham to prove that justification does not come by the work of flawless, perfect law keeping.

Romans 4:1 Abraham found NOTHING according to the flesh, he gained nothing by his own works of merit...(we know Abraham sinned therefore could not merit justification by perfect law keeping).

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham has been justified on the principle of works, he has whereof to boast:
Paul uses a hypthetical "IF"...what IF Abraham worked and kept the law flawlessly, perfectly? Then he could boast of his own efforts in keeping the law perfectly, flawlessly. His reward would be merited, it would be owed him for his flawless law keeping and that he could boast about.

Romans 4:3 but what sayeth the scripture about Abraham? Does scripture tells us Abraham was justified by his own effort in keeping the law perfectly? NO!! Scripture instead says Abraham was justified by an obedient faith.

Paul therefore in this context is making a very clear CONTRAST from the work of perfect law keeping that does NOT justify from a faithful obedience that DOES justify

 

[Behold]

Scripture instead says Abraham was justified by an obedient faith.

Paul therefore in this context is making a very clear CONTRAST from the work of perfect law keeping that does NOT justify from a faithful obedience that DOES justify

Exactly.

Abraham believed God, and God accepted this FAITH...

He accepted Faith..

"faith is counted AS Righteousness". "justification BY faith".

Listen reader.....we dont have any righteousness for God to accept.....so, he accepts our FAITH in the RIGHTEOUS ONE, to accept us.

What is this Acceptance?

Its God's blood and death, that is Christ on the Cross. This is being ACCEPTED by GOD, on our behalf, because we gave God our FAITH in Christ THE Savior.

God says... : "you take my Son, i make you my Son".
God says.... : "you take Jesus, and i will take you".

See that FAITH?.....God accepts that to have us, and keep us......to give us the new birth, as "born again".

Simply put.....God gives the Cross as our forgiveness, when we give God our Faith in Jesus who died for us on The Cross.

God gives us HIS Righteousness, because Jesus became our sin, and was judged for them all, on The Cross.

See, we have nothing that God will accept, as we are sinners, damned.
So, God died on the Cross to give Himself what HE can Accept...... to accept us.
See, God is not accepting us, He is accepting His own blood and death given on the Cross....on our behalf.
Salvation, is God taking us into His Family based only on what God did for us on the Cross.
No water need apply.
No commandment keeping need apply.
Only the blood and death of Jesus, will God accept, to accept YOU.

And to GET that Applied to you, so that you become God's son, is to give God your FAITH that He did this for you.

That is FAITH, that God accepts., and if you give Him your Faith in His Son, He will make you His Son by this...>"born again".

And to be told He did this for us, is to hear the GOSPEL. And to share this message is to "preach the Cross".

"the preaching of The Cross, is the power of God, unto Salvation".

 

[Daniel L.]

The "works" in this verse refers to the works of perfect law keeping as required by the law of Moses.

That Abraham was not justified by the Law of Moses is obvious, self-evident. That is why it makes no sense at all for a hebrew of hebrews to even consider such an absurdity, every Jew knew very well Abraham could not possibly have been justified by the law of Moses, that is not the argument here, but according to you, all the Jews were somehow convinced Abraham was justified by the law of Moses, and even Paul considers this impossibility, and the reason why he wasnt justified by the law of Moses is because he cant boast, and not because the law wasnt yet given..

Sin being paid for by Jesus was a free gift

"Free gift" ?

Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Paul was not limiting himself to just the law of Moses but ANY law that requires perfect flawless law keeping keeping cannot justify.

So what is Paul doing ?
Is he:
-Trying to convince Jews that Abraham was not justified by the works of the Law of Moses? Which is ridiculous and a waste of time, the Jews would probably laught and say: of course he wasnt, the law of Moses didnt existed then, Duh.
or
-Trying to convince Jews that Abraham was not justified by works in general of the Law of God?

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There are no exeptions: Abraham obeyed all commandmants, statues and Laws of God perfectly. That is why he was blessed.
Which is why Im asking who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

 

[Behold]

Which is why Im asking who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

A.) It would be the One who sent His Son to The Cross for that purpose.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello to you,

If you are going to use the Bible to justify your position as though Jesus’ life is a bribe that is offered by God I would suggest this would be a disservice in sharing the Bible.

God sent his Word, and his Word became flesh: and Jesus decided to do the Will of the Father and not his own Will. In that paying and dying for the price of Sin, all people would be reconciled after three days of Jesus having been handed over by his own people - the Jewish people - to be offered to die on account for doing nothing wrong. Three days later God raised Jesus up from the dead.

Jesus has fulfilled all law, and all the prophets in my eyes for having love for God and love for others. He was the righteousness of God who makes anyone who believes in the Gospel of Christ a Son or daughter of God if they are lead by the spirit.

Those who believe in Jesus receive the holy spirit sent from the Father and also the spirit of Christ.


“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

God bless, in Christ,
Matthew Gallagher