Who comes out of Pagan Rome and still is with us today with a man at its head of this religious power... History shows us and the Reformers saw it and it will go to the end and perdition..
Keeping the Sabbath tells people Who you Worship
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Pagan Rome lost out to Christian Rome but it took 3 bloody centuries to do it. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church. Too bad you won't name any martyrs in the 1st & 2nd century when persecution was at it's peak. That's because they were all Catholic Christians. The first 27+ popes were killed by pagan Romans. The "Catholic Roman Emperor Church" is a myth conjured up by hate cults.
It's a well documented historical fact that does not appear on any anti-Catholic site or source, yet they claim expertise on early church history. Martyrs were buried in the Roman Catacombs in the late 1st century and into the 3rd. If you ever get to Rome, they have public tours and see it for yourself. You can gaze in wonder or shake your fist.
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Yes, she came as a beautiful bride and turned into the Harlot as prophecy said, full of fornication and the names of blasphemy, which will go to the end.. which even the writer was shocked..Pagan Rome lost out to Christian Rome but it took 3 bloody centuries to do it. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church. Too bad you won't name any martyrs in the 1st & 2nd century when persecution was at it's peak. That's because they were all Catholic Christians. The first 27+ popes were killed by pagan Romans. The "Catholic Roman Emperor Church" is a myth conjured up by hate cults.
It's a well documented historical fact that does not appear on any anti-Catholic site or source, yet they claim expertise on early church history. Martyrs were buried in the Roman Catacombs in the late 1st century and into the 3rd. If you ever get to Rome, they have public tours and see it for yourself. You can gaze in wonder or shake your fist.
roman catacombs christian art - Bing
Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.www.bing.com
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
That has nothing to do with the heresies listed. Just as I thought, you refuse to accept the Catholic Church collectively defended the doctrine of the Tr***ty in councils you reject. It's self defeating. Without synods and councils, you wouldn't have a bible in the first place. Please don't quote me and then not reply to the content. I'm allergic to derailers, off topic flaming whoppers and non-reply replies. You did it twice in a row and I'm getting a rash.
It got drunk with the blood of the saints as it persecuted them and burned them at the stake, to say nothing of the horrible crimes in the Inquisition, it's all documented in history just as the prophecy said.
Nothing can hide what was done and fulfilled what Christ said would happen, you cannot deny its acts which Revelation lays out, and which shall soon see its punishment as given...
Er... the old covenant and the New Covenant are NOT the same.
There are major differences between the two which is why the New Covenant does not teach that Christians are required to observe Saturday sabbath to be saved as some of your peoples claim as they think they are more holy and more righteous before the Lord because they have church on Saturday.
This is all a result of the miscomprehensions of the Saturday peoples
I explain it this way. If you find the love of your life and she asks that you remember the anniversary you came together, do you out of love, mark it on your calender, and make sure you don't miss it, and rejoice with her on it. Or do you let it slip and find another out on the street and spend the day with her and forget your true love..
God comes first and foremost in our lives as Christians and when He asks us to remember the day He made for us to share with Him, it's important. And shows our love to say nothing of our relationship with Him..
Pavel Mosko
Member
Only Seventh Day Adventists could make this claim in this day and age and this claim comes from the Shutdoor teaching/prophesy and related works and revelations like "The Great Controversy" paradigm, The Desire of Ages, The Three Angels Message of Ellen White and early Millerite and Adventist Pioneer predictions and revelations like Hiram Edson's Cornfield vision etc.
For the rest of believers in Christ I recommend the two following links. I will also state I am aware of other Sabbatarian groups like the Seventh Day Baptists, Messianic Jews etc. they do have much different rhetoric on the Sabbath that the SDA.
Eighth Day, First Day — Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations
All of Creation is in need of redemption, as Scripture says: “. . . which God created to do.” ( Sefat Emet)
www.umjc.org
The Origins of Sunday Worship in the Early Church - GCI Archive
Visit gci.org and browse Grace Communion International's extensive library of articles on God, the Bible, faith, and the Christian Life.
archive.gci.org
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Pavel Mosko
Member
as long as I'm here I might as well share a post from an online Facebook friend.
"I posted this information not too long ago; and I want to share it again for those who have left the SDA and for those SDA who are struggling with the doctrines.
The Bible in its original was written in Hebrew and the Koine Greek. In order to understand the original message intended one have to go to the original languages, the customs of the time when it was written, to who it was written and to who it applies. So let me take you to the time after the Cross; many epistles (letters) were written to the Christians of the time of the Apostles.
There was this letter that was written to the churches of Corinth; these churches were being targeted by the Judaizers among other heretic groups. The language at that time in the era was Koine Greek, at least in Corinth, Greece (Corinth is located eighty kilometers west of Athens).
2 Corinthians 3, is a "hot potato" in the Seventh Day Adventist Organization; the true behind this chapter is kept away from the flock by the SDA Leadership. There is no doubt that 2 Corinthians 3 is speaking of the Old Covenant - Ten Commandments and the New Covenant.
How do I know that? Well, first, what was written with ink, and what was engraved on stones? The Ten Commandments!!!
Now, the Ten Commandments was a Covenant between God and Israel only, no other country was included. When the bible speaks of Gentiles, pretty much it is speaking of any country outside of Israel that is not part of the Covenant. But this Covenant was open to gentiles as long they joined Israel (Ruth the Moabite left behind her nation and joined Israel through the Old Covenant).
This letter was sent to the churches of Corinth for many reasons, and one of the reason was the "Judaizers" among christians.
Here is the deal, these letters pretty much were read in front of the Congregation; so I suggest try to transport your mind 2,000 years ago and imagine yourself been part of the audience, leave behind your mother language and embrace the language that was mostly spoken in that time and place; the Koine Greek.
As you're paying attention to the speaker (who ever was at that time) there are words that the Apostle Paul intentionally included in order to get the attention of the greek speaking audience; words like: "written, engrave, stones, Moses, veil, children of Israel, veil, covenant" are spoken......among others words.... but one particular word is mentioned not once, not twice, not thrice, but four times!!! You want to know what word is that?
Here is the word ***Abolish!!!! ***
Oh, Lord!!!! Red flags are raised in the minds of the Judaizers (In modern times will be Seventh Day Adventist). No doubt the Judaizers can put the pieces together, they are told that the Old Covenant - Ten Commandments is abolished!!! The Apostle Paul is putting it eloquently, with kind words, not too harsh as He did to the churches of Galatia (Read the Epistle to Galatians).
Yes, my dear reader, the word "abolish" is mentioned in the Koine Greek, the very original language that the New Testament Cannon was written. Paul makes it very clear.....four times he had to use it in order to "shut down" the Judaizers, to silence the Judaizers intruders/spies/false teachers from within the Christian crowd of Corinth.
2 Corinthians flat out says the 10 commandments are abolished in 4 places by using the same word for abolish as in Eph 2:15.
But there is a better Covenant, and it is not a "set" of rules or elements of this world, but a Person....... and the Sabbath (shadow) pointed to such a Person...... Christ!!!
And by the way, Christ is mentioned in 2 Corinthians 3, here Paul says that the Corinthians are a letter of Christ, “Christ is written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts of the Corinthians” (2 Corinthians 3:3). And you can find a "true Rest" in Christ as it is mentioned in the Gospel of Mathew chapter 11.
But it does not end there, there is more to it!!! The Apostle Paul identify the Old Covenant as the ministry that brought death and condemnation, which was engraved in letters on stone and written with ink (Book of the Law/Torah). And do you know what the Apostle Paul tells the church of Corinth? Not to teach the Ten Commandments - Old Covenant.
Watch this: "God has made us "able/competent" as "ministers" of a New Covenant, not ministers of the "Letter"". (verse 6).
PS: Under the Old Covenant, Israel was commanded to "Remember the Sabbath", but under the New Covenant, Christians are commanded to "Remember Christ".......did you see that? Two "Remembers"; Two different Covenant and each one has a "Remember"; Israel remembered their most dearly rule for almost 1,400 years, and Christ has been remembered for over 2,000 years and counting by true Christians........ Just saying...
Blessings!!!"
"I posted this information not too long ago; and I want to share it again for those who have left the SDA and for those SDA who are struggling with the doctrines.
The Bible in its original was written in Hebrew and the Koine Greek. In order to understand the original message intended one have to go to the original languages, the customs of the time when it was written, to who it was written and to who it applies. So let me take you to the time after the Cross; many epistles (letters) were written to the Christians of the time of the Apostles.
There was this letter that was written to the churches of Corinth; these churches were being targeted by the Judaizers among other heretic groups. The language at that time in the era was Koine Greek, at least in Corinth, Greece (Corinth is located eighty kilometers west of Athens).
2 Corinthians 3, is a "hot potato" in the Seventh Day Adventist Organization; the true behind this chapter is kept away from the flock by the SDA Leadership. There is no doubt that 2 Corinthians 3 is speaking of the Old Covenant - Ten Commandments and the New Covenant.
How do I know that? Well, first, what was written with ink, and what was engraved on stones? The Ten Commandments!!!
Now, the Ten Commandments was a Covenant between God and Israel only, no other country was included. When the bible speaks of Gentiles, pretty much it is speaking of any country outside of Israel that is not part of the Covenant. But this Covenant was open to gentiles as long they joined Israel (Ruth the Moabite left behind her nation and joined Israel through the Old Covenant).
This letter was sent to the churches of Corinth for many reasons, and one of the reason was the "Judaizers" among christians.
Here is the deal, these letters pretty much were read in front of the Congregation; so I suggest try to transport your mind 2,000 years ago and imagine yourself been part of the audience, leave behind your mother language and embrace the language that was mostly spoken in that time and place; the Koine Greek.
As you're paying attention to the speaker (who ever was at that time) there are words that the Apostle Paul intentionally included in order to get the attention of the greek speaking audience; words like: "written, engrave, stones, Moses, veil, children of Israel, veil, covenant" are spoken......among others words.... but one particular word is mentioned not once, not twice, not thrice, but four times!!! You want to know what word is that?
Here is the word ***Abolish!!!! ***
Oh, Lord!!!! Red flags are raised in the minds of the Judaizers (In modern times will be Seventh Day Adventist). No doubt the Judaizers can put the pieces together, they are told that the Old Covenant - Ten Commandments is abolished!!! The Apostle Paul is putting it eloquently, with kind words, not too harsh as He did to the churches of Galatia (Read the Epistle to Galatians).
Yes, my dear reader, the word "abolish" is mentioned in the Koine Greek, the very original language that the New Testament Cannon was written. Paul makes it very clear.....four times he had to use it in order to "shut down" the Judaizers, to silence the Judaizers intruders/spies/false teachers from within the Christian crowd of Corinth.
2 Corinthians flat out says the 10 commandments are abolished in 4 places by using the same word for abolish as in Eph 2:15.
- Verse 7 - The ministry of death, written and engraved on stones ... abolish - fading (Strong's G2673 - *katargeō - *καταργέω)
- Verse 11 - The *ministry of condemnation... ***abolish - done away ***(Strong's G2673 - *katargeō - *καταργέω)
- Verse 13 - Look to the end of that which is ***abolish *** (Strong's G2673 - *katargeō - *καταργέω)
- Verse 14 - The old covenant... is ***abolish - done away ***in ***Christ!! ***(Strong's G2673 - *katargeō - *καταργέω)
But there is a better Covenant, and it is not a "set" of rules or elements of this world, but a Person....... and the Sabbath (shadow) pointed to such a Person...... Christ!!!
And by the way, Christ is mentioned in 2 Corinthians 3, here Paul says that the Corinthians are a letter of Christ, “Christ is written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts of the Corinthians” (2 Corinthians 3:3). And you can find a "true Rest" in Christ as it is mentioned in the Gospel of Mathew chapter 11.
But it does not end there, there is more to it!!! The Apostle Paul identify the Old Covenant as the ministry that brought death and condemnation, which was engraved in letters on stone and written with ink (Book of the Law/Torah). And do you know what the Apostle Paul tells the church of Corinth? Not to teach the Ten Commandments - Old Covenant.
Watch this: "God has made us "able/competent" as "ministers" of a New Covenant, not ministers of the "Letter"". (verse 6).
- The word "able/competent" in the Koine Greek is Strong's G2427 - hikanoō to make sufficient, render fit to equip one with adequate power to perform the duties of one.
- The word "ministers" Strong's G1249 - diakonos one who executes the commands of another, of a master, a servant, attendant, minister, the servant of a king, a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church...
PS: Under the Old Covenant, Israel was commanded to "Remember the Sabbath", but under the New Covenant, Christians are commanded to "Remember Christ".......did you see that? Two "Remembers"; Two different Covenant and each one has a "Remember"; Israel remembered their most dearly rule for almost 1,400 years, and Christ has been remembered for over 2,000 years and counting by true Christians........ Just saying...
Blessings!!!"
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Pavel Mosko
Member
The Seventh Day Adventist position on the Sabbath is only Scriptural if you accept the Book of Jubilees as Scripture. But note even in this case it is still given to what saint Paul would call "natural Israel".
Here is a passage from Jubilees 2 16-33
Jubilees 2:16-33
Here is a passage from Jubilees 2 16-33
Jubilees 2:16-33
- And He finished all his work on the sixth day -all that is in the heavens and on the earth, and in the seas and in the abysses, and in the light and in the darkness, and in everything.
- And He gave us a great sign, the Sabbath day, that we should work six days, but keep Sabbath on the seventh day from all work.
- And all the angels of the presence, and all the angels of sanctification, these two great classes -He hath bidden us to keep the Sabbath with Him in heaven and on earth.
- And He said unto us: 'Behold, I will separate unto Myself a people from among all the peoples, and these shall keep the Sabbath day, and I will sanctify them unto Myself as My people, and will bless them; as I have sanctified the Sabbath day and do sanctify (it) unto Myself, even so will I bless them, and they shall be My people and I will be their God.
- And I have chosen the seed of Jacob from amongst all that I have seen, and have written him down as My first-born son,and have sanctified him unto Myself for ever and ever; and I will teach them the Sabbath day, that they may keep Sabbath thereon from all work.'
- And thus He created therein a sign in accordance with which they should keep Sabbath with us on the seventh day, to eat and to drink, and to bless Him who has created all things as He has blessed and sanctified unto Himself a peculiar people above all peoples, and that they should keep Sabbath together with us.
- And He caused His commands to ascend as a sweet savour acceptable before Him all the days . . .
- There (were) two and twenty heads of mankind from Adam to Jacob, and two and twenty kinds of work were made until the seventh day; this is blessed and holy; and the former also is blessed and holy; and this one serves with that one for sanctification and blessing.
- And to this (Jacob and his seed) it was granted that they should always be the blessed and holy ones of the first testimony and law, even as He had sanctified and blessed the Sabbath day on the seventh day.
- He created heaven and earth and everything that He created in six days, and God made the seventh day holy, for all His works; therefore He commanded on its behalf that, whoever does any work thereon shall die, and that he who defiles it shall surely die.
- Wherefore do thou command the children of Israel to observe this day that they may keep it holy and not do thereon any work, and not to defile it, as it is holier than all other days.
- And whoever profanes it shall surely die, and whoever does thereon any work shall surely die eternally, that the children of Israel may observe this day throughout their generations, and not be rooted out of the land; for it is a holy day and a blessed day.
- And every one who observes it and keeps Sabbath thereon from all his work, will be holy and blessed throughout all days like unto us.
- Declare and say to the children of Israel the law of this day both that they should keep Sabbath thereon, and that they should not forsake it in the error of their hearts; (and) that it is not lawful to do any work thereon which is unseemly, to do thereon their own pleasure, and that they should not prepare thereon anything to be eaten or drunk, and (that it is not lawful) to draw water, or bring in or take out thereon through their gates any burden, which they had not prepared for themselves on the sixth day in their dwellings.
- And they shall not bring in nor take out from house to house on that day; for that day is more holy and blessed than any jubilee day of the jubilees; on this we kept Sabbath in the heavens before it was made known to any flesh to keep Sabbath thereon on the earth.
- And the Creator of all things blessed it, but he did not sanctify all peoples and nations to keep Sabbath thereon, but Israel alone: them alone he permitted to eat and drink and to keep Sabbath thereon on the earth.
- And the Creator of all things blessed this day which He had created for blessing and holiness and glory above all days.
- This law and testimony was given to the children of Israel as a law for ever unto their generations.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
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I've always been amused by this kind of elitist stuff. What is the common man to do?
'
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Moving on to "cloak-and-dagger" stuff now, I guess.
Well, I don't know for sure if an entire book has been written about it, but Francis Nichol included an article debunking its use as an objection to the perpetuity of the Ten Commandments in his 1952 work "Answers To Objections," so I'd hardly call it "kept away from the flock." And I'm pretty sure it's been covered in the Sabbath School Quarterly lesson plans a number of times.
How would you even do that? You do realize that we have world-class universities and seminaries all over the world, right? This is 2024 and it's kinda hard to keep people from looking into things nowadays—especially things in the Bible.
Here's the excerpt from Nichol's book:
(The content was originally
OCR scanned and therefore
may contain some
typographical errors.)
Objection 6
Paul states that the "ministration of death, written and engraved in stones" was "done away." Therefore the ten-commandment law, which was written on the tables of stone, has been done away. (See 2 Cor. 15-11)
Let us see what Paul really did say. The introduction to the passage before us finds Paul declaring to the Corinthian brethren: "You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.” 2 Cor. 3:2, 3.
Here is the key to interpret the words that follow. His figure of speech is patently borrowed from the Scriptural contrast between the old and the new covenant, -Tables of stone- contrasted with “tables of the heart”, “ink" contrasted with "the Spirit of tile living God.” These Corinthians, he said, were "ministered by us.”
By an easy transition Paul moves into a discussion of the two covenants by adding immediately that Christ "also hath made us able ministers of the new testament [covenant]; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.” (The word ‘testament’ in this and almost all other instances in the New Testament does not have the meaning of a “will" as made by a testator in anticipation of death, but of covenant, and is so translated in the Revised Version.)
We might close the discussion right here, for our examination of the two covenants revealed clearly that the ratifying of the new covenant did not mean the abolishing of the Ten Commandments. However, let us proceed.
“But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: how shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remains is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: and not as Moses, which put a vale over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished.” Verses 7-13.
Here is a series of contrasts, intended not so much to belittle the old dispensation as to glorify the new. It was ever Paul's studied endeavor to prove that Christ and His ministry are the blazing glory beside which the spiritual glory of the former times seems pale. This argument by contrast particularly marks the book of Hebrews, which was written for the Jewish believers, who, until they accepted Christ, had thought that the glory of Sinai and the ministration of the divine law under the Jewish priests and rulers were the last word in heavenly glory. The contrasts that Paul seeks to make are essentially the same as the contrasts between the old and new covenants:
- "The ministration of “death" versus ”the ministration of the spirit."
- "Ministration of condemnation" versus "ministration of righteousness."
- "Letter kills" versus -spirit gives life.”
- “Was glorious- versus -exceed in glory.”
- "Done away" versus "remains."
- What are these two ministrations?
- What is meant by letter and spirit?
- What is this relative "glory"?
- What was "done away” and what "remains "?
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Continued—
The objector quickly answers: The "ministration of death" was that which was "written and engraved in stones," and is Plainly the Ten Commandments. But not so quickly. Is it correct to speak of a "ministration" and a "law" as synonymous? No. It is correct to speak of the "ministration" or, as we would say, the administering of a law. The administering of the law is the means by which it is put in operation, and is not to be confused with the law itself. Therefore, "the ministration of death," or "the ministration of condemnation," refers to the ministration, or the administering, of the law that was "written and engraved in stones.” 33
By a simple figure of speech the law is called death and condemnation. On a certain occasion in Elisha's day the sons of the prophets gathered with him around a "great pot" in which had been cooked certain "wild gourds." Evidently the gourds were poisonous, for one of those eating cried out: "There is death in the pot." (See 2 Kings 1: 38-40) He meant, of course, that there was something in the Pot that would cause death, and substituting cause for effect, he cried out as he died.
Paul had earlier said to the Corinthians, "The sting of death is sin: and the strength of sin is the law." 1 Cor. 15:56. That is, if it were not for the law of God, which condemns those who violate it, there would be no sin, and hence no death in penalty for sin, "for where no law is, there is no transgression.- Rom. 4:15. Thinking on this fact and the contrasting fact that ”the law is holy . . . and just, and good," caused Paul to inquire: ”Was then that which is good made death unto me?" Here he speaks of the law as "death." Now, how does Paul say that we escape from this "ministration of death”,- this "ministration of condemnation"? By abolishing the law of God? Listen to his words:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom. 8: 1-4.
We escape from "condemnation" through Jesus Christ, who changes our hearts so that "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us." Paul describes this changed state as walking "after the Spirit," and adds that "to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Verses 5, 6.
Here is a state of "condemnation" and "death" changed to one of "no condemnation" but rather "life." In other words, a ministration of condemnation and death exchanged for a ministration of the spirit and life. How evident that we are here discussing the two covenants. And how evident also that Paul's words in Romans 8 parallel his words in 2 Corinthians 3. That is the plain teaching of the Scripture.
The cold letter of the law as it appeared on the stone tables had no life-giving power. It could only point accusingly at every man, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. An administration of the law based on its letter alone results only in death for violators. But an administration of it based on the forgiveness possible through the action of God's Spirit on the heart results in life. The contrast between "letter" and "spirit" does not mean a contrast between an age of law and an age of freedom from all law. As we have already noted, when God's Spirit is in control, the law's requirements are carried out in our hearts.
What, now, of the "glory" mentioned by Paul? He plainly speaks of the relative glory of two ministrations. The justice and righteousness of God shone forth in awesome, even terrifying glory on Mount Sinai as He proclaimed His law. He stood there as a consuming fire. But how much greater the glory of God that bathed the earth with its life-giving rays where Christ came down to "save his people from their sins." Matt. 1:21. Here was the glory of justice and mercy combined, for in dying for our sins—our "transgression of the law"—Christ revealed how God at one and the same time could "be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus." Rom. 3:26.
This brings us to the last question: What was “done away" and what "remains"? The question is really already answered. The glory attendant upon the giving of the law is so greatly excelled by the glory attendant upon the saving of men from its violation that Paul could appropriately speak of the first as "glorious" and the second as "the glory that excels.” But right here Paul weaves in an incident in connection with the giving of the law at Sinai to illustrate a point that he wishes to make in the verses that immediately follow this disputed passage. When Moses came down from the mount with the tables of stone in his hands, ”the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him." So Moses "put a vale on his face" while he spoke to the Israelites. (See Ex. 34:29-35)
Paul refers to this: "The children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away." 2 Cor. 3:7. He refers to this again in verse 11, saying it was "done away," and then again in verse 13 in these words: "And not as Moses, which put a vale over his face, that the children of Israel could riot steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished."
It was the glory of the former ministration, now ended, and not the law administered, that was "done away," "abolished," even, as by historical analogy, Paul reminds them that it was the glory on Moses's face that was "done away.” The record declares that the veil was on Moses's face, not on the tables of stone, that it was his face that shone and not the tables of stone, and that it was the glory on his face that faded, not the luster that ever surrounds the divinely written Ten Commandments.
Well do Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, in their Bible commentary, make this general observation in their comments on 2 Corinthians 3: 34
"Still the moral law of the ten commandments, being written by the linger of God, is as obligatory now as ever; but put more on the Gospel spirit of 'love,' than on the letter of a servile obedience, and in a deeper and fuller spirituality (Matthew 5.17-48; Romans 13.9)."
.
The objector quickly answers: The "ministration of death" was that which was "written and engraved in stones," and is Plainly the Ten Commandments. But not so quickly. Is it correct to speak of a "ministration" and a "law" as synonymous? No. It is correct to speak of the "ministration" or, as we would say, the administering of a law. The administering of the law is the means by which it is put in operation, and is not to be confused with the law itself. Therefore, "the ministration of death," or "the ministration of condemnation," refers to the ministration, or the administering, of the law that was "written and engraved in stones.” 33
By a simple figure of speech the law is called death and condemnation. On a certain occasion in Elisha's day the sons of the prophets gathered with him around a "great pot" in which had been cooked certain "wild gourds." Evidently the gourds were poisonous, for one of those eating cried out: "There is death in the pot." (See 2 Kings 1: 38-40) He meant, of course, that there was something in the Pot that would cause death, and substituting cause for effect, he cried out as he died.
Paul had earlier said to the Corinthians, "The sting of death is sin: and the strength of sin is the law." 1 Cor. 15:56. That is, if it were not for the law of God, which condemns those who violate it, there would be no sin, and hence no death in penalty for sin, "for where no law is, there is no transgression.- Rom. 4:15. Thinking on this fact and the contrasting fact that ”the law is holy . . . and just, and good," caused Paul to inquire: ”Was then that which is good made death unto me?" Here he speaks of the law as "death." Now, how does Paul say that we escape from this "ministration of death”,- this "ministration of condemnation"? By abolishing the law of God? Listen to his words:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom. 8: 1-4.
We escape from "condemnation" through Jesus Christ, who changes our hearts so that "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us." Paul describes this changed state as walking "after the Spirit," and adds that "to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Verses 5, 6.
Here is a state of "condemnation" and "death" changed to one of "no condemnation" but rather "life." In other words, a ministration of condemnation and death exchanged for a ministration of the spirit and life. How evident that we are here discussing the two covenants. And how evident also that Paul's words in Romans 8 parallel his words in 2 Corinthians 3. That is the plain teaching of the Scripture.
The cold letter of the law as it appeared on the stone tables had no life-giving power. It could only point accusingly at every man, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. An administration of the law based on its letter alone results only in death for violators. But an administration of it based on the forgiveness possible through the action of God's Spirit on the heart results in life. The contrast between "letter" and "spirit" does not mean a contrast between an age of law and an age of freedom from all law. As we have already noted, when God's Spirit is in control, the law's requirements are carried out in our hearts.
What, now, of the "glory" mentioned by Paul? He plainly speaks of the relative glory of two ministrations. The justice and righteousness of God shone forth in awesome, even terrifying glory on Mount Sinai as He proclaimed His law. He stood there as a consuming fire. But how much greater the glory of God that bathed the earth with its life-giving rays where Christ came down to "save his people from their sins." Matt. 1:21. Here was the glory of justice and mercy combined, for in dying for our sins—our "transgression of the law"—Christ revealed how God at one and the same time could "be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus." Rom. 3:26.
This brings us to the last question: What was “done away" and what "remains"? The question is really already answered. The glory attendant upon the giving of the law is so greatly excelled by the glory attendant upon the saving of men from its violation that Paul could appropriately speak of the first as "glorious" and the second as "the glory that excels.” But right here Paul weaves in an incident in connection with the giving of the law at Sinai to illustrate a point that he wishes to make in the verses that immediately follow this disputed passage. When Moses came down from the mount with the tables of stone in his hands, ”the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him." So Moses "put a vale on his face" while he spoke to the Israelites. (See Ex. 34:29-35)
Paul refers to this: "The children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away." 2 Cor. 3:7. He refers to this again in verse 11, saying it was "done away," and then again in verse 13 in these words: "And not as Moses, which put a vale over his face, that the children of Israel could riot steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished."
It was the glory of the former ministration, now ended, and not the law administered, that was "done away," "abolished," even, as by historical analogy, Paul reminds them that it was the glory on Moses's face that was "done away.” The record declares that the veil was on Moses's face, not on the tables of stone, that it was his face that shone and not the tables of stone, and that it was the glory on his face that faded, not the luster that ever surrounds the divinely written Ten Commandments.
Well do Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, in their Bible commentary, make this general observation in their comments on 2 Corinthians 3: 34
"Still the moral law of the ten commandments, being written by the linger of God, is as obligatory now as ever; but put more on the Gospel spirit of 'love,' than on the letter of a servile obedience, and in a deeper and fuller spirituality (Matthew 5.17-48; Romans 13.9)."
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Wow!
Quite a fine rebuttal to the posts you were replying to. Well done.
I have a few questions/comments about your summary statement quoted above.
1) Your mention of the veil raises a question about this scripture.
"Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts." - 2 Corinthians 3:15 NIV
Why does a veil cover their hearts when the law is read? Is this not a reference to the law itself
rather than to the administration of the law?
2) What sort of Sabbath did these Bible commentators observe? (Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown) ???
Were they NOT worshiping and resting on the first day of the week? (Sunday) ???
If so, their support for the moral law (the TCs) differs significantly from the seventh day sabbatarian view.
Are they indeed upholding the moral law with such religious behavior?
And what about the dietary laws, etc. ? Were they compliant to the law in that respect? ???
Perhaps we can't know the answer to that. ???
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
.Wow!
Quite a fine rebuttal to the posts you were replying to. Well done.
That's mighty nice of you to say, SS, but nearly the whole thing is just a quote from Nichol's book, so I can't take any credit nor even responsibility other than what's appropriate for having sourced it.
Of course, my point was that 2 Corinthians 3 is not, as Mosko suggests, being hidden from the Adventist laity.
I see this kind of "cloak-and-dagger," as I put it, nonsense all the time and I just like to debunk it once in a while when I happen upon it—especially when it's coming from a quasi-notorious hostile actor (with an atrocious-looking avatar, which is simply unforgivable
) like Mosko..
Well, as verse 7 seems to stipulate that it's the children of Israel we're talking about, I can only assume that a veil of legalistic tendencies was believed to be covering their hearts, not seeing, as Nichol brings out, the greater glory that was in the Saviour who could change the heart into conforming to the law inwardly, as a true Jew would do, according to Romans 2:29 (link).
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Without looking it up (which I'd rather not go to the trouble of doing since it's Nichol's source—not mine) and, as I recall it being mid-to-late 19th-century work, I'd speculate that they were of a fairly conservative Sunday-keeping ilk.
And being, as I am, from an SBC background, I readily sympathize with ignorance surrounding the day-of-the-week discrepancy, and I also recognize the transfer-of-solemnity claims. So, in any case (especially as they are dead - lol), I grant their liberty and decline to impeach their motives.
Unlike Mosko, and as you must know by now, I don't distinguish between the Sabbath command and the other 9.
As to the dietary, etc., I confess I'd rather not get into an infernal 'all-613-or-nothing' debate.
Not all Sabbatarians keep kosher, by the way.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
2) What sort of Sabbath did these Bible commentators observe? (Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown) ???
Were they NOT worshiping and resting on the first day of the week? (Sunday) ???
If so, their support for the moral law (the TCs) differs significantly from the seventh day sabbatarian view.
Are they indeed upholding the moral law with such religious behavior?
And what about the dietary laws, etc. ? Were they compliant to the law in that respect? ???
Perhaps we can't know the answer to that. ???
There promotion of the TCs was really what I would consider a promotion of what I call God's law of human conscience.
With the addition of Sunday-keeping to delude themselves. Pseudo Sabbatarian wanna-be religion.
"Yes, we keep the Sabbath, every Sunday!" - Say what?
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2) What sort of Sabbath did these Bible commentators observe? (Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown) ???
Were they NOT worshiping and resting on the first day of the week? (Sunday) ???
If so, their support for the moral law (the TCs) differs significantly from the seventh day sabbatarian view.
Are they indeed upholding the moral law with such religious behavior?
And what about the dietary laws, etc. ? Were they compliant to the law in that respect? ???
Perhaps we can't know the answer to that. ???
Yup. I think that takes a bit of wind out of that sail.
There promotion of the TCs was really what I would consider a promotion of what I call God's law of human conscience.
With the addition of Sunday-keeping to delude themselves. Pseudo Sabbatarian wanna-be religion.
"Yes, we keep the Sabbath, every Sunday!" - Say what?
Bacon Cheese Burgers anyone? - LOLNot all Sabbatarians keep kosher, by the way.
/
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
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Oh, yeah. He's got the three Ds: Diabolical; devastating; and...well, one I can't say on here.
Besides, you're just being modest. You're the king of "Saturday peoples" terminator-ing around here.
Come on, you've got our number.
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