If you have been following my posts, you'll realize this is off target.
Much love!
Law Religion vs Grace
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Much love!
James was clear, and so was Moses. The Law is a unit. You subdivide it into parts, but the Bible does not.
And in your spiritual fulfillments, I don't know what you have in mind you're assuming I'd find fault with, but if they empty the original of meaning, yes, I might question that.
I'm anticipating that some will simply be ignored, like the ones I mentioned. These are the most commonly dismissed, or changed, but the Bible doesn't allow for that. Either you keep it or you don't.
If you think these are dumb arguments, I don't require responses, feel free to bow out.
Much love!
Please quote the Laws that you think Jesus failed to keep, and how you think He failed to keep them. That sounds interesting!
In Romans, "Faith upholds the Law", I've told you exactly what I believe that means, a couple of times, please repicrocate for me, so I can better understand your POV.
Much love!
Are you suggesting that our reconciliation to God is due to our ceasing a certain wrong behavior? That's what I mean, "acceptible to God".
Are you suggesting then that if you look with lust, you stop being reconciled? Is this truly about our behavior?
I read that we are reconciled in Christ, and the Bible nowhere adds something to that, so I'd say, in Christ alone.
Much love!
Create my own NT Law? How so?
I believe we are under the Law of Christ, Who commands us to trust Him, and love others. And if we do those two things - that's all we have to concern ourselves with - then we are keeping the Law we are intended to keep.
Which of these descriptions do you think I'm converting into a Law?
Much love!
Trust Jesus, and Love others. Very clear, very comprehensive, and totally transformative, unlike the Mosaic Covenant of Law made at Mount Horeb between God and Israel.
And, I'll give you an opportunity to tell me what you are meaning in those words, "uphold the Law".
Much love!
Because people tend to need things explained a lot of different ways.
Are you really suggesting that after all this talk about grace and faith, that God is then just reverting back to, If you follow this list of things I'm giving, you'll live, and if not, you'll die? Because it really sounds like what you're saying.
That the one who keeps the "Law", whomever's version, will live by that keeping of it?
The just shall live by faith. I don't know if you know this, the LXX translates that in Habbakuk, the just, by my faith, they live. That brings some really interesting harmony with Galatians 2, maybe 16 or 18.
So then don't do that!
If you are keeping it as a list of requirments you have to adhere to,
OK, here's a thing. The lists of behaviors as things that we read, that you are talking about, and many of the OT laws, as we can practically relate them to our lives, gives us some pointers about how to be, and provide a safety rail until we can mature.
Just as the Law was given as a peadogogue to Israel, to keep them intact until Jesus came, it couldn't make them righteous, but it could keep them alive by keeping them from going off the deep end into sin. It had a built in safety net, the curses.
It also had a very strict requirement, adherance, in the most past, upon pain of death, or otherwise continuing sacrifices.
So it only served to condemn the people, but it also protected the nation, again, until Jesus came.
God's intent for our lives is that each of us our fruitful in our own ways, as the Holy Spirit works uniquely with each one of us, no two alike. Like they say, an organically formed body, not built as each of us learns to keep laws, but built as each of us learn to walk in the Spirit.
Before we begin to mature, in that "milk" stage, before we understand much, these lists of behaviors inform us, describing what is and is not the child of God. We can use that to help, as we work on our character, not a bad thing at all! I think that improving our character is like giving ourselves a better toolbox.
I think this makes for a good example of the Hebrews passage of milk and meat, that we do what we believe is what we should do, and as we do so, we come to understand more, meat.
But if we remain living by trying to obey lists of rules, we hold ourselves back from the walking in the Spirit, which has no rules at all. Because the Spirit controls us.
Yes, I agree, there are a number of wrong ideas about grace. I think those wrong ideas go both directions, some saying you need do nothing, and some saying you don't have it unless you are keeping every bit - of their version, anyway.
Grace to me means that God has removed from me all guilt and shame, and replaced it with innocence and joy. God's favor towards us in the forgiving of all our sins.
Grace allows me the opportunity to believe, and receive, and be born again. And the idea isn't to turn us into law-keepers, the idea is to turn us into people like Jesus.
Here's a question for you . . . Did Jesus "keep" the Law, or did He "fulfill" the Law? The difference is this.
A man keeps the Law, in that it was imposed upon him, and he is subject to it. His compliance is just that, compliance. He is following something external to him.
Jesus fulfilled the Law in that He always lived in such a way that His life never violated any law. But He wasn't per se "in compliance". I do what I see My Father do. I say what My Father says. And because that was so, He never violated any commandment. He never did anything contrary to Who He is.
If we are "law keepers", we do the same, we follow some external rulebook. Walking in the Spirit is different. As we trust in Jesus, whatever comes in life, we trust Him, and make our choices based on love. Chosing to trust, and to love, is the sacrifice of ourselves God is asking for.
Committing ourselves to loving others is to sacrifice our rights for ourself. And trusting Jesus to care for our needs, we don't need rights, Jesus is our helper.
So then the choices we make come from this foundation. We can look to the Bible, and know, the choice of trusting Jesus and loving others will never look like stealing from someone. And it's not a bad thing to restrain yourself from stealing, because we know that's not right.
But I think the real transformation God is working in us is one in which we look to Jesus for our needs, and we commit ourselves to other's well-being - love - and in this, we are people who do not steal. But not so we are in compliance with "Thou shalt not steal", but because we love others, and give to them because we love them.
Trying to obey laws can help you build character, that is, to reorder your neural pathways through repetions of thought and behavioral patterns, but learning to be like Jesus is the renewing of the mind, which brings the transformation God works through rebirth to be the dominant factor in our lives.
We are transformed by His love for us, His care for us, and as He is sharing to others through us. Love outpoured into our hearts, this is love that's poured into us, to spread out to others, and this is transformative.
In this transformation, walking in the Spirit, we do as the Spirit leads, empowers, whatever that may be. Getting up and going to work in the morning. Serving in our church with the gifts He gives. Sharing God's love, with everyone in our lives, in all the ways that's done.
Giving material care, prayers, encouraging, just letting people know they are loved. Enduring through difficulties and afflictions, but knowing even these are expressions of God's love for us.
The point is, if we can consistently walk in faith, in the Spirit, our choices are guided by Him, not by lists. It's personal. It's contextual. Unique. Righteous, and ALWAYS appropriate, correct.
Much love!
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You really can take this to a higher level than this.
But to answer you just the same . . .
A new commandment I give to you, that you love others as I have loved you.
Tell me . . . do you consider your love for yourself to be as efficacious a guide as Jesus' love for you?
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Upholding/establishing the law means not being in violation of it:
"Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:23
What that means is when you believe and are walking according to the fruit of the Spirit you are not in violation of the law. You are upholding it.
OK, I suspected you were thinking something like that.
I would sooner say that this is validating the law. We make it stand. That's how I'm reading it.
And this is where the "spiritualizing" come into play. Forget the priests checking your diseases, and the mold under your sink. Even though violation required sacrifice. Forget about thrice-annual attendance to the feasts in Jerusalem.
If I've been properly listening, you'll explain how some is no longer applicable (cultural, that time), some has been fulfilled by Christ, and as He lives in you, this is sufficient, and some must be fulfilled by you, showing you are truly Spirit filled. (let me know if I'm not understanding)
Again, everything I read in the Bible tells me the Mosaic Law is a covenant God made with Israel at Mount Horeb, and that it was to be kept by Isreal fully and completely, and to break part of it is to break all of it, as affirmed by James.
And what I read is that the Holy Spirit lives in us to direct our lives quite aside from the Law. Instead, conforming us directly to Christ, transforming us not by imposing Laws, instead by renewing our minds.
Much love!
This is silliness, agreed, but who thinks that way?
Meanwhile, we need to understand that we are not in the driver's seat, and we are "working out", katergadzomai, what He is "working in", ergon, both to will and to do what pleases Him.
The true Christian life is NOT adherance to lists of rules, it's cooperation with the Holy Spirit, and letting Him work with us as He pleases.
Much love!
And do you really think the flesh needs to be left uncorrected? There is no such thing as "law religion". The grace of God also firmly establishes the Law of Christ, and demands righteousness. Now if that is "law religion" to you, then eat, drink, and be merry.
This is not precisely correct. There are many lists of rules for Christians.
Here's one example in 1 Thessalonians 5 (rules identified by red numbers)
Wherefore
[1] comfort yourselves together, and
[2] edify one another, even as also ye do.
And we beseech you, brethren, to
[3] know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
[4] And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake.
[5] And be at peace among yourselves.
Now we exhort you, brethren,
[6] warn them that are unruly,
[7] comfort the feebleminded,
[8] support the weak,
[9] be patient toward all men.
[10] See that none render evil for evil unto any man;
[11] but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
[12] Rejoice evermore.
[13] Pray without ceasing.
[14] In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
[15] Quench not the Spirit.
[16] Despise not prophesyings.
[17] Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
[18] Abstain from all appearance of evil.
Replying to the OP. It is absolutely imperative to understand the English translated word grace and the idea of it from the original language being Hebrew. The Hebrew word is chen חן is the original word used. Grace is the translated English word. Grace is abstract, meaning there is no real concrete idea for this word. Meaning ask 10 people what grace is, you will most likely get 10 different views. Like abstract art, abstract words are in the eyes and minds of the beholder.
I can tell you the Hebrew word chen translated as grace is very different to the modern view grace this word meant something very different 2,000 - 3,000 yrs ago.
We need to shift from reading the modern English translated version of the scriptures and with our westernized mindsets and go back as much as possible to the original intended meanings of words which in many cases have very different meanings than our modern English meanings.
The original authors were Hebrews who spoke Hebrew, who lived in a Hebrew culture, who had a middle eastern mindset and worldview. Which most of the time is very different from our worldview and western mindset. Yahweh. You know the God of the Hebrews, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who were all Hebrews, who chose to manifest Himself within this same Hebrew culture, in the person of Yeshua (Jesus) who is a Hebrew, not a European blue eyed, shampooed light brown flowing hair. He looked middle eastern, you know like a Jew. Because He was one. Being from the house of David, from the Tribe of Judah.
All this to show and try to have the readers understand words and their meanings within the culture, in the original language, with the understanding and meanings of the original author's who were all Hebrews.
Grace is definitely one of those words as is Law, Faith, Righteousness, Wickedness, Good, Evil, Mercy, Salvation etc. etc. etc.
Shalom
I can tell you the Hebrew word chen translated as grace is very different to the modern view grace this word meant something very different 2,000 - 3,000 yrs ago.
We need to shift from reading the modern English translated version of the scriptures and with our westernized mindsets and go back as much as possible to the original intended meanings of words which in many cases have very different meanings than our modern English meanings.
The original authors were Hebrews who spoke Hebrew, who lived in a Hebrew culture, who had a middle eastern mindset and worldview. Which most of the time is very different from our worldview and western mindset. Yahweh. You know the God of the Hebrews, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who were all Hebrews, who chose to manifest Himself within this same Hebrew culture, in the person of Yeshua (Jesus) who is a Hebrew, not a European blue eyed, shampooed light brown flowing hair. He looked middle eastern, you know like a Jew. Because He was one. Being from the house of David, from the Tribe of Judah.
All this to show and try to have the readers understand words and their meanings within the culture, in the original language, with the understanding and meanings of the original author's who were all Hebrews.
Grace is definitely one of those words as is Law, Faith, Righteousness, Wickedness, Good, Evil, Mercy, Salvation etc. etc. etc.
Shalom
Hey. Never asked how Sukkot went this year. This song will be a tradition for me. Shalom.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
So, which part of the law do you think I'm saying does not get kept or upheld by faith in Christ?
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Too bad the church has decided it's a sin to worship the Lord according to the Feast cycle.
We have robbed ourselves of the presence of the Lord in great and awesome worship.
I'm so thankful that the Lord started me and my wife out in the charismatic movement, when it still knew how to worship the Lord in truth and sincerity. Because of that I know about and long for the Spirit in robust and heartfelt praise and worship.
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Amen! And "GRACE Is Greater Than all our sin!" (Romans 5:15,20)
Speaks Volumes About: God's ALL-Sufficient {ALL Encompassing} BLOOD!
Correct?
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
What I'm saying is 'spiritual' fulfillment of the law is valid. If for some reason you can't accept that, that it has to be literal and to the letter, consider the fact that the reason you are not guilty of not observing a Mosaic Passover is because Christ did that for you and me one time for the last time for all time when he offered himself up as the Passover Lamb required by God. That's a spiritual fulfillment of the law. We didn't literally keep it ourselves, yet God accepts it and marks the required Passover Observance as 'fulfilled' on our heavenly account. Your faith in Christ upholds Moses' Passover Observance, not breaks it. And so there is no violation of that law in the eyes of God for you because you have faith in Christ.
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