Law Religion vs Grace

[soul man]

op: law religion vs God's Pure GRACE

or, is it a "combo" doctrine? The Law, According to The GRACE Gospel:

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart,
and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what
they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is NOT made for a righteous man, but
for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and
profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for
menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing
that is contrary to sound doctrine;

According To What?:

1Ti 1:11 According to The Glorious Gospel of The Blessed God, which
was committed to my trust. The Glorious Gospel Of PURE GRACE, Correct?:

Now, MOST agree we, today, Are SAVED By GRACE Through faith, (Eph 2:8-9),
in The Gospel Of GRACE (1 Cor 15:3-4), Correct? But, Where MOST Vehemently
Disagree is with this: Is that enough to KEEP God's ETERNAL Salvation?

Apparently NOT, because to some, God's ETERNAL Salvation is

NOT ETERNAL, BUT, is only 'temporary,' As:

Lawkeepers (1Ti 1:5-7) Demand "THE ETERNALLY Saved" to
OBEY PERFECTLY, the "temporary Conditions" of Either:

1) ALL 613 points of the Mosaic LAW, OR, at Least:
2) The TEN Commandments? Meaning: DISOBEY And suffer ETERNAL torment!
Apparently then, "lawmaker's doctrine" is such that:

The Precious ALL-Sufficient BLOOD Of The Saviour, is INSUFFICIENT!

This UNbiblical teaching Is Disproven By God's Sound Doctrines:
God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance

Further, The Simplicity Of CHRIST, According To The GRACE Gospel,
Is Totally Amazing, According to {NOT 613, NOR 10, NOR ANY}, Except:

THIS ONE Commandment!:

3) ALL Of His Law IS FULFILLED, In "ONE Word: LOVE thy neighbor
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)

Conclusion, why is it that some say they "have Been SAVED By God,"
But Then Vehemently Disagree With HIM!

{"swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling"???}​

May God Have MERCY!! God's Simple Will!

Good word on grace. It seems to be scripture taken out of context, or just thumbing through scripture to prove a point. When an individual understands born again (a literal birth has taken place), it is the teaching we need as a birthed child of God. Some may not take it as a literal birth and start trying to put it altogether - scripture will not fit a believe that cannot see a birth has taken place. And it is not preached as such in general - as far as that birth being the completion of the believer in spirit. Soul is being completed or renewed. No dividing soul and spirit has caused a lot of confusion - and when you preach completion..the message is not widely accepted. The two nature's, and the birthing are keystone to understanding what is written to the born again through the Apostle Paul.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

what I read is that the Holy Spirit lives in us to direct our lives quite aside from the Law. Instead, conforming us directly to Christ, transforming us not by imposing Laws, instead by renewing our minds.

This is true except for the part about "quite aside from the law". The NT is full of the law, explaining to us how we are to live.
The law itself can not make us obey it's commands, and so it is not a guide that way (Only Christ in us by the Holy Spirit can do that). But it surely is useful for "training in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16).

 

[Brakelite]

KJV 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The many who have responded to this OP seem to believe that obedience to the law is somehow antithetical to grace. Tell me. Those referred to above, those Corinthians who were once thieves and adulterers etc, but are no longer, how could they be so changed as to now be obedient to the law without grace??? Is not grace surely the basis and power behind their obedience? So how can we say grace and obedience are antithetical to one another?

 

[marks]

The law itself can not make us obey it's commands, and so it is not a guide that way (Only Christ in us by the Holy Spirit can do that). But it surely is useful for "training in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16).

If we know what God has said to others, this can sometimes be helpful to us if we get off track. I mean, if you think murdering your wife is what the Spirit is leading you to do, reflecting on the 10 commandments may help you with some perspective.

I came across this in our morning reading,

Hebrews 7:16 KJV
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

This is of course about Christ, just the same, it highlights the distinction of new vs. old.

Old is from the outside in . . . New is from the inside out.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Your faith in Christ upholds Moses' Passover Observance, not breaks it.

Seriously?

I'm going to look through your posts to see if you've defined what you mean by "upholds". So far I haven't seen it, and you seem to be replacing "keep the Law" with "uphold the Law", and I'm REALLY CURIOUS what you mean by that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Amen! And "GRACE Is Greater Than all our sin!" (Romans 5:15,20)

Speaks Volumes About: God's ALL-Sufficient {ALL Encompassing} BLOOD!

Correct?

Absolutely!

As if you can add to your acceptance in Christ by acting right?

Much love!

 

[marks]

So, which part of the law do you think I'm saying does not get kept or upheld by faith in Christ?

So . . . I'm not seeing in your posts what you mean when you say, "uphold the Law", though you use that expression in several posts, and I've asked you several times.

What do you mean?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Your faith in Christ upholds Moses' Passover Observance, not breaks it.

Yep, everytime I try to answer . . . I run into this . . . what do you mean by "Uphold"? Since you are using this a lot, I'd appreciate clarity with simplicity.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yep, everytime I try to answer . . . I run into this . . . what do you mean by "Uphold"? Since you are using this a lot, I'd appreciate clarity with simplicity.

Much love!

Satisfies it. I explained this.
Faith doesn't cast down and trample on the law, as the church teaches.
Faith satisfies it's requirements.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So . . . I'm not seeing in your posts what you mean when you say, "uphold the Law", though you use that expression in several posts, and I've asked you several times.

What do you mean?

Much love!

Faith satisfies the requirements of the law, not replaces or breaks them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Seriously?

I'm going to look through your posts to see if you've defined what you mean by "upholds". So far I haven't seen it, and you seem to be replacing "keep the Law" with "uphold the Law", and I'm REALLY CURIOUS what you mean by that.

Much love!

Keeping the law implies keeping it to the letter. That's why 'upholding' or 'fulfilling' the law is a more appropriate word since, for example, Christ is not a literal to the letter of the law keeping of the law of Moses, yet he is a fulfillment of the law that satisfies it's demands.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I would sooner say that this is validating the law. We make it stand. That's how I'm reading it.

Validating the law as what exactly?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And this is where the "spiritualizing" come into play. Forget the priests checking your diseases, and the mold under your sink. Even though violation required sacrifice. Forget about thrice-annual attendance to the feasts in Jerusalem.

They are not forgotten. They are checked 'satisfied' for you by Christ.
It's 'spiritual' in that you did not literally satisfy them yourself. But they are satisfied nonetheless, not broken because 'they don't apply anymore', or 'those were for the Jews', etc.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If I've been properly listening, you'll explain how some is no longer applicable (cultural, that time)

There are some things that the law governs that we simply don't do anymore.
I've haven't taken a 'war bride' in years, lol.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

...some has been fulfilled by Christ, and as He lives in you, this is sufficient, and some must be fulfilled by you, showing you are truly Spirit filled. (let me know if I'm not understanding)

Without any other detail you seem to be on the right track.
The key being, the law is satisfied by faith, not cast away and trampled on and broken because it doesn't need to be satisfied anymore as many in the church think.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Again, everything I read in the Bible tells me the Mosaic Law is a covenant God made with Israel at Mount Horeb, and that it was to be kept by Isreal fully and completely

Yes, it was a covenant.
Just because it's not the covenant God has between his people and himself anymore that doesn't mean it's righteous requirements do not now have to be satisfied. That is the mistake most Christians make about the law.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

and to break part of it is to break all of it, as affirmed by James.

All he's saying is you can't call yourself a 'law keeper' if you don't 'keep' all of it. He explains this.
Paul talks about this, too, in Romans 2:17-24.
It has nothing to do with the subject of how one satisfies every single law of Moses in this New Covenant. That is addressing the matter of neglect and hypocrisy.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This is silliness, agreed, but who thinks that way?

I run into this thinking all the time in on-line forums.

The distorted thinking is if you read in the law to do right and then you purposely try to do that right you are working to save yourself. It's a horrible, horrible misunderstanding of Romans 14:23...

"...everything that is not from faith is sin."​

The mere suggestion of the law in a discussion about obedience suddenly makes obedience now a matter of your own 'works' and not faith. I run into this erroneous thinking all the time. I call it 'automatic Christianity'. Somehow obedience has to be this automatic thing that just happens 'by the Spirit' or else it's you trying to work to save yourself. Of course the net effect of such thinking is you end up doing nothing, or very little, and you rationalize your lack or absence of works in the name of avoiding the works gospel.

 

[marks]

This is not precisely correct. There are many lists of rules for Christians.
Here's one example in 1 Thessalonians 5 (rules identified by red numbers)
Wherefore
[1] comfort yourselves together, and
[2] edify one another, even as also ye do.
And we beseech you, brethren, to
[3] know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
[4] And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake.
[5] And be at peace among yourselves.
Now we exhort you, brethren,
[6] warn them that are unruly,
[7] comfort the feebleminded,
[8] support the weak,
[9] be patient toward all men.
[10] See that none render evil for evil unto any man;
[11] but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
[12] Rejoice evermore.
[13] Pray without ceasing.
[14] In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
[15] Quench not the Spirit.
[16] Despise not prophesyings.
[17] Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
[18] Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Yes, you are right. I'm thinking a different sense, but yes, I should be careful.

I'll pick one, to show better what I mean.

Rejoice evermore, we are told.

As a Law, it's a tough one. "I command you, rejoice!" How do you obey, "Rejoice evermore"?

I've known a great many Christians who answer this by defining rejoicing as something different than being extremely happy about something, but that's what the word means.

Romans 5 echoes this in saying we "joyfully boast" over our tribulations. If this is real rejoicing, real glorying, this is an obedient act to a commandment?

Or is it an emotional response to embracing a truth? When the apostle writes, "rejoice evermore", what is he really saying here? Isn't it that if you are not rejoicing, something is wrong, and fix what is wrong?

If we are not rejoicing, are we supposed to manufacture some feeling inside so we can say we are rejoicing? Or should we seek after the true reason for joy and rejoicing, and when we've found it, hold tightly to it?

That God loves us and accepts us in Christ, and for that I rejoice as often as this comes to mind. That God watches over all things that concern me, and He, not I, has their solutions, and they are already in place. I rejoice as often as that comes to my mind. That God has promised me that He will bring me safely home to Him No Matter What, and I rejoice as that comes to mind. That God is here with me, sharing this moment with me, and in His presence I rejoice.

If I'm not rejoicing, it means I'm not grounding my thoughts in the reality of the Gospel, and that can change in that moment of recognition.

We do have lists of things we are to do, but I see these lists as describing the person God is turning us into. And while "bucking ourselves up" when we feel down isn't a bad thing to do, and comforting the weak, even from a cold heart, if you can, may still be helpful, but I think the reality is that these are the things God is making us into.

Obedience purely for the sake of obedience is respect for God and others, and may it be transformative, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, we are being transformed into that Image, may our obedience open our faith to be transformed by the Spirit into the people who love, and do what is good out of love, as these Scriptures show the way.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Faith satisfies the requirements of the law, not replaces or breaks them.

"Upholds" is to "satisfy the requirements"? Is that what you are saying?

Much love!