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I see this commentary showing different views, and I did not want to c/p the whole thing...sorry I missed the first half will find it and check it out again...
Here is one on I Thes.
The word “rapture” is derived from the Latin rapio, which means “to seize, to snatch.”
"Though this word is not used in the Bible, dispensationalists claim the idea is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. There Paul speaks of the second coming of Christ. He declares that those living saints who witness the Lord’s return will be “caught up” (harpagesometha) in the clouds to meet Him.
To use 1 Thessalonians 4, though, in an effort to prove a silent, secret return of Christ is, as Alexander Reese put it, one of the sorriest attempts “in the whole history of freak exegesis” (1975, 146).
Problems With the Rapture Doctrine
The foregoing rapture theory is plainly contradicted by the following Biblical facts:
Christ’s return will be visible.
The return of Christ will be visible universally, not invisible or secretive, known only by a few.
In Matthew 24:15-22 Jesus described the conditions to be associated with the destruction of Jerusalem. In connection therewith, He warns that should anyone claim, “Lo, here is the Christ,” it was not to be believed: "For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen (from phaino, “to shine”) even unto the west; so (houtos, “in this manner”) shall be the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man" (27).
As those early disciples “beheld” (theaomai, “see, look at”) Christ’s departure (Acts 1:11), so in like manner (tropos, “in the same way”) would He come again.
The coming of the Lord will involve a revelation" (apokalupsis, “to uncover”) of His being (2 Thes. 1:7).
At his coming Christ will be “manifested” (phaneroo). When this term is used in the passive voice, as in 1 John 2:28, it means to “show or reveal oneself, be revealed, appear to someone” (Arndt & Gingrich 1967, p. 860).
As Jesus was visible during his first “appearing” (epiphaneia) on earth (2 Tim. 1:10), so will He be visible when He appears at His second coming (1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim.4:1, 8; Tit. 2:13).
Of His coming it is said that Christ "shall appear (horao, “become visible”) a SECOND time" (Heb. 9:28).
If Lindsey and his dispensational kin are correct, Christ will not appear until his THIRD coming!
Sound will accompany Jesus’ second coming.
Further, the Scripture indicates that the advent of Christ will be accompanied by considerable audible phenomena.
The Lord will descend from heaven “with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God” (1 Thes. 4: 16). Someone has called this the “noisiest” verse in the Bible!
Too, when Jesus comes again “the heavens shall pass away with a GREAT NOISE” (2 Pet. 3:10), and that hardly accords with the notion that the second advent will be a silent, secret event!
Both the righteous and the wicked will be resurrected when Christ returns.
The idea that only the righteous dead will be resurrected at the time of the rapture is totally false.
First of all, the New Testament teaches that there will be a single resurrection consisting of both just and unjust (Acts 24:15), who will come forth in the same hour (John 5:28,29).
Secondly, this resurrection will occur at “the last day” (John 6:54), which does not leave time for a seven-year tribulation period, much less a millennium!
Clearly, both the good and bad are rewarded at the time of Christ’s coming (Matt.25:31ff; 2 Thes. 1:7ff).
Truly, the rapture theory is a ruptured theory!
The History of the Rapture Theory
The rapture doctrine has its roots in history, not in Scripture. The idea appears to be traceable to the old Irvine (pentecostal) movement of the early 1800’s."
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1577-what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-rapture
Shut up. Ahaha---I could never say that as straight faced as you can Rollo...I try, just doesn't work for me!
Helen
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Obviously "I" don't put it in the same category. :)
We are a SPIRITUAL people...not physical "We" are the person within us..my skin and bone is not " me".
Why would God wish to save our fleshly bodies?
As for all the rubbish about my son-in-law in the middle of saving an unsaved persons life on the operating table...then God would whisk him away..body, soul and spirit into the blue and blue.
Planes crashing, trains crashing, cars crashing...yep..great testimony that would to the unsaved ...who didn't even know that there was such a thing as a rapture!!
That may be some peoples God...but it sure isn't mine. Ha!!
Even when I belonged to a church group that believed it and was only beginning to read the Bible myself, I had serious doubts about it. As for the books and movies of the OP, I have never read any of them or seen any of them. So I try not to comment directly on them with a yea or a nay.Obviously "I" don't put it in the same category. :)
We are a SPIRITUAL people...not physical "We" are the person within us..my skin and bone is not " me".
Why would God wish to save our fleshly bodies?
As for all the rubbish about my son-in-law in the middle of saving an unsaved persons life on the operating table...then God would whisk him away..body, soul and spirit into the blue and blue.
Planes crashing, trains crashing, cars crashing...yep..great testimony that would to the unsaved ...who didn't even know that there was such a thing as a rapture!!
That may be some peoples God...but it sure isn't mine. Ha!!
You are looking to the new man of us which is good, but I see also our duty as stewards of all that God has given us. He gave us also this veil of flesh and we are to keep it in the best condition we are able especially when it comes to engaging in what would be described as sinful activities. Will God stand with us when we are not doing all that we can avoid such things? What is all that we can do? Is there anything impossible for the God that is in us?
And what Alexander Reese says is one of the sorriest attempts to dismiss the Rapture. He does not even know the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming!
This is as NONSENSICAL as saying that you could make an elevator go UP and DOWN at the same time.
At the second coming Christ comes WITH His saints.
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh WITH ten thousands of his saints,to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
But at the Rapture He comes FOR His saints. See John 14:1-3.
This is the Second Coming of Christ, not the Rapture.
Behold, he cometh WITH clouds; and every eye shall see him, and theyalso which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)
Reese does not even know how to distinguish between the resurrection of the saints and the resurrection unto damnation, which are separated by AT LEAST 1000 YEARS.
More baloney from those who cannot even see the Rapture in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in 30 AD BEFORE HIS CRUCIFXION. See John 14:1-3.
Sorry Nancy, but you latched on to a sorry excuse for someone trying to explain the Rapture and then confusing it with the Second Coming.
Helen
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People assume that whenever 'it' happens, we will go zooming off the earth into outer space to meet the Lord somewhere in another geographical location. Pictures have been drawn by artists, and distributed by the multiplied thousands, of Jesus standing on a stratocumulus cloud a few thousand feet in the air, while Christians are being lifted out of a village below. Some are a few feet off the ground, others halfway to the cloud, etc. A most unscriptural picture, yet many form their beliefs from this sort of thing, and take it as acceptable gospel truth.
After a young Scottish lass by the name of Margaret MacDonald went into a trance and described a vision in which she said she saw the saints leaving the earth at the return of the Lord, before the tribulation.
Her trance and vision took place in the spring of 1830, while living in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her “revelation” was recorded in a book written by R. N. Norton and printed in London in 1861.
Prior to this time, the Church, clear back to the Apostles, had always preached that the Church would go victoriously through the tribulation.
There is no record of the “escape rapture” theory being preached before 1830.
On April 30, 1831, a Mrs. J. B. Cardale, who later joined Irving’s church, had uttered a personal revelation in a home prayer meeting, echoing Margaret MacDonald’s revelation of a pre-tribulation rapture.
And so the lie grew....I am amazed that so many "so called' mature Christians have fallen for this!!! And God help them for propagating it ...instead of encouraging and teaching the saints to "be prepared " to go through and stand on firm ground before the Enemy.
After a young Scottish lass by the name of Margaret MacDonald went into a trance and described a vision in which she said she saw the saints leaving the earth at the return of the Lord, before the tribulation.
Her trance and vision took place in the spring of 1830, while living in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her “revelation” was recorded in a book written by R. N. Norton and printed in London in 1861.
Prior to this time, the Church, clear back to the Apostles, had always preached that the Church would go victoriously through the tribulation.
There is no record of the “escape rapture” theory being preached before 1830.
On April 30, 1831, a Mrs. J. B. Cardale, who later joined Irving’s church, had uttered a personal revelation in a home prayer meeting, echoing Margaret MacDonald’s revelation of a pre-tribulation rapture.
And so the lie grew....I am amazed that so many "so called' mature Christians have fallen for this!!! And God help them for propagating it ...instead of encouraging and teaching the saints to "be prepared " to go through and stand on firm ground before the Enemy.
I should have left this to you! lol...I'm getting pretty tired of constantly looking at the computer...since May 30TH...making me sloppy. Guess I will stick with the other stuff...this thing just goes round, and round and goes nowhere. Is a shame...they WILL be caught unawares....they will NOT be prepared...all those warnings, hmmm..I suppose those aren't all THAT important...just some words in a book...ok...I'm getting nasty now, so...better get off here.
nite
Did God rapture Enoch alive into heaven? Did God rapture Elijah alive into heaven?
We who believe in the Rapture of the Church don't do so in hopes of getting out of trouble. It will take us away from the Tribulation period, but that is not why we believe it.
Understanding of the Rapture and other End time events has grown over the years. So? There was no doctrine of the Trinity for years either. Revelation is progressive as is our understanding of said revelation.
When you were first born-again, how much did you understand about what was in the Bible? When is the cut-off date for when you have learned all that is in the Bible?
Is there not a precedent that God can and does rapture His people at times, with Enoch and Elijah?
Stranger
We who believe in the Rapture of the Church don't do so in hopes of getting out of trouble. It will take us away from the Tribulation period, but that is not why we believe it.
Understanding of the Rapture and other End time events has grown over the years. So? There was no doctrine of the Trinity for years either. Revelation is progressive as is our understanding of said revelation.
When you were first born-again, how much did you understand about what was in the Bible? When is the cut-off date for when you have learned all that is in the Bible?
Is there not a precedent that God can and does rapture His people at times, with Enoch and Elijah?
Stranger
I too get tired of this same old "gotta be watching and ready" stuff. Since the Bible tells us that to be saved, we need only believe.... what, then, is entailed in all this additional "watching and being ready?"
You still have not responded to my post requesting that you give us your understanding of 1 Thess 4:13-18 (and now I will add John 14:1-3). You say "most unscriptural" but you do not address the actual Scriptures. Which means that you have swallowed anti-pre-trib propaganda hook, line, and sinker. Margaret McDonald indeed. How about Ronald McDonald?
Many Christians do not really understand what Daniel's 70th week is all about, and that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are manifestations of God wrath against sin and sinners. Which means that they also don't understand what Christ accomplished on the Cross to prevent the wrath of God from falling on the saints.
Enoch and Elijah are indeed examples of God taking his saints out of the earth supernaturally. Enoch was *translated* before the Flood, Noah and his family were preserved from God's judgment through the Flood, and Lot and his family escaped the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah. Noah and Lot are both called *righteous* in the Bible, and every child of God is deemed to be righteous in the sight of God by His grace and through Christ.
Helen
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We all have choices...if we are wise we get before God and wait on Him for a week , a month or a year...waiting for the answer or confirmation of what we have asked.
I have mentioned before...it is no longer my habit to play the " show me your scripture and I will show you mine" It is totally pointless and a waste of time..
as they say " Been there and done that" . Whatever scripture is used, there is always a counter scripture to be found in the bible.
I personally believe that it is like that "so that"...we take our hearts to God and lay it before Him.
We have free will...and God says "Choose you..."
You are quite free to believe it if you like.
But, you are in a much weaker position than I am.
As we follow and walk with God ...together....and you happen to be wrong and I am right...you will wait and wait to be "rescued" and it wont come...you will have to stand and face the heat like any true soldier of the cross.
But, on the flip side, if I am wrong...and you are right...but I have lived heart and soul for God, following close to Him...I will be taken anyway just as you believe.
My burden is not for the individual beliefs...but woe unto them who have fed false information to young Christians , so that they are not prepared to stand in the heat of the battle... Woe to those to lead them astray...
Helen
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Hello my friend
Glad to hear it. Then you will be ready either way.
That is your "personal" stand...but I disagree , you cannot speak for others only yourself . You say < " We who believe in the Rapture of the Church don't do so in hopes of getting out of trouble. " >
I beg to differ...I believed it all myself for over a decade, and that is what I heard taught. ....until I took it to the Lord and asked..
I have heard it preached like that countless times from different pulpits over the many years....our friend on here on the Site GIMSY is always putting up his scare threads on "Don't be left behind"
"Are you ready?" etc etc
Tim Lahaye's stuff on it is nothing but scare tactics and fear mongering...
I'm glad that you will be ready to stand...But I hope you are not telling your bible group that they will be escaping all the horrid terrors and be zapped out of trouble. Causing them to be complacent in the battle against evil and drop their guard.
>.....Helen
I really doubt that anyone who teaches the Rapture and the literal 7 year Tribulation period teaches also that we can be complacent in our spiritual warfare here and now. Such a thing is ridiculous. It is akin to those who claim because I don't believe you can lose your salvation, then I am teaching you can sin all you want and not worry about it. So many false assumptions.
For one to miss the Rapture they would not be Christian. So the warning, 'don't be left behind', is not to Christians but to non-believers. It would be no different than giving the Gospel and warning against entering eternity separated from God. Which, though I know you don't believe it, would mean being cast eventually into the lake of fire.
When one teaches the Rapture he is teaching that God's purpose at that time for the Church is done. He is calling the Church out of the earth into Heaven and then begins to finish His work with Israel that He has promised. And that work with Israel first involves 7 years of Tribulation to fulfill the final 7 weeks of Daniels prophecy.
So, yes, the Church doesn't go through the Tribulation. It is not because the Church shouldn't suffer and be involved in spiritual warfare. It is because the Tribulation is not for the Church. It is for Israel and the unbelieving Gentile nations.
Stranger
I too believed in the rapture up until 3 years ago! I see thing so different now. Here is something I just came across...seems to me that the Saints/Elect will still be here: "“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Mt. 24:29-31) "
Oh boy, here I go again...on that stupid fence! I did once fully believe in the rapture, for years...then, the last few years decided after reading (probably too many opinions, WITH scripture, lol) found I did not believe it...and now you have to write this!
: I guess I AM wishy washy! Either way...yes, still need to don our suit of armor and learn satan's wiles while being daily equipped with our spiritual weapons. Sometimes I feel as though I am on a treadmill, going nowhere fast sometimes, lol.
Helen
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@Stranger I have always heard the Rapture messages over the pulpits directed at Christians.
As a brand new Christian I always wondered why our little church of about 60 or 70 people, always had a Sunday night gospel meeting ..and he still gave all the Christians the gospel message and an altar call after!
I never understood that .:
Same people every week, same message.
When we got older and had our own church...we never gave a "gospel message" not never...it was just a good body meeting that lasted two hours...but God was always there, unsaved just came in, or people brought them along...and people got saved left, right and centre.
But, that being said...Back then in the 60's and 70's with God moving like he did, one could almost preach on Humpty Dumpty and people would get saved!!
It was all a God-thing, nothing of ourselves. We just 'happened ' be the ones who paid the rent on the place and led the meetings.
" Times and seasons..."
As a brand new Christian I always wondered why our little church of about 60 or 70 people, always had a Sunday night gospel meeting ..and he still gave all the Christians the gospel message and an altar call after!
I never understood that .
:Same people every week, same message.
When we got older and had our own church...we never gave a "gospel message" not never...it was just a good body meeting that lasted two hours...but God was always there, unsaved just came in, or people brought them along...and people got saved left, right and centre.
But, that being said...Back then in the 60's and 70's with God moving like he did, one could almost preach on Humpty Dumpty and people would get saved!!
It was all a God-thing, nothing of ourselves. We just 'happened ' be the ones who paid the rent on the place and led the meetings.
" Times and seasons..."
I too believed in the rapture up until 3 years ago! I see thing so different now. Here is something I just came across...seems to me that the Saints/Elect will still be here: "“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Mt. 24:29-31) "
Oh boy, here I go again...on that stupid fence! I did once fully believe in the rapture, for years...then, the last few years decided after reading (probably too many opinions, WITH scripture, lol) found I did not believe it...and now you have to write this!
(Matt. 24:29-31) is speaking of the 2nd Coming which occurs at the end of the Tribulation period. Yes, there are believers there, the elect of God of Israel, and the elect of God who became believers after the Rapture of the Church. Neither group is part of the Church but they are saved and are believers.
Have you done your own study of the Rapture or dispensations of God? If not I would encourage you to. There are some good commentaries on the subject. Know this though, even if you disagree with the Rapture, if it occurs while you are here, you won't miss it. All believers are taken.
Stranger
@Stranger I have always heard the Rapture messages over the pulpits directed at Christians.
As a brand new Christian I always wondered why our little church of about 60 or 70 people, always had a Sunday night gospel meeting ..and he still gave all the Christians the gospel message and an altar call after!
I never understood that .
Same people every week, same message.
When we got older and had our own church...we never gave a "gospel message" not never...it was just a good body meeting that lasted two hours...but God was always there, unsaved just came in, or people brought them along...and people got saved left, right and centre.
But, that being said...Back then in the 60's and 70's with God moving like he did, one could almost preach on Humpty Dumpty and people would get saved!!
It was all a God-thing, nothing of ourselves. We just 'happened ' be the ones who paid the rent on the place and led the meetings.
" Times and seasons..."
I have no problem with alter calls, or not having them. Of course I would have a problem with the same message every week. There is so much there to be said.
Yes, many are not aware, but in the 60's and 70's, a time of rebellion in our country, there was a great revival of God taking place among those who were caught up in the drugs, riots, Vietnam, God is dead philosophies. And I have no doubt it was in other parts of Western Civilization also.
Stranger
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