Legalism in religion

[Bible Highlighter]

Those who are truly saved are still learning. If we have to obey God in all things then NONE of us are saved.

Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?

Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of New Testament commands on day one of our service to be saved (after we are saved by God’s grace)? The charge has been claimed by Belief Alone Salvationists that you must obey all of the New Testament commands (or that you must reach a state of Sinless...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, it's not ok. Those who drift that way, as most of us will at times, will be treated as a son. And what son that belongs to God will go without chastising, unless he be illegitimate?

How do you determine if someone is a son or a bastard?

Anyways, with this kind of over confident attitude of being invincible and locked into the kingdom, there is the danger of teaching against the fear of God (which never turns out well for a person). For the Scriptures talk about how there are those who have no fear of God before their eyes.

Why would Jesus warn how just the sin of lusting can lead us to be cast bodily into hellfire?

 

[Charlie24]

How do you determine if someone is a son or a bastard?

Anyways, with this kind of over confident attitude of being invincible and locked into the kingdom, there is the danger of teaching against the fear of God (which never turns out well for a person). For the Scriptures talk about how there is no fear of God before their eyes.

That is above my pay grade, BH. It's not for me to determine who is a son and who is not.

It's my responsibility to keep the faith and not become illegitimate.

I know from experience that the spankings from the Lord are present with His sons.

There will be no doubt, you will know where it came from and what you did to receive it.

 

[Brakelite]

The term 'legalistic' of applied often by those unwilling to obey certain scriptural Commandments. God has ultimate authority. The very moment we reason against a commandment, be it OT or NT, we are placing ourselves as an authority above God. And if we use other's education, principles, teaching, reputation, or fame as our yardstick for moral or doctrinal standards, they become our god. To whom or to whatever we surrender our, as @Lizbeth put it it thread Sola Scriptura, 'mental or intellectual autonomy' to, they become the object of our worship.
In Revelation, it says the whole world will soon be 'wondering after the beast'. They will quote: KJV Revelation 13:4
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

They worship the dragon by proxy, because they surrender their wills and autonomy to the beast, granting him ultimate authority over their lives. This is a soon to be realized global phenomenon, and we ought to be looking now to global movements toward this united collective mindset, and that unity must include both religious and secular political powers. I have been observing this movement for years now, have you?

For example. Christian forums all have one thing in common. Controversy and debate. And one of the most common is the debate over obedience. Who's authority do you submit to. Hence this thread... Sola scriptura. Hence the controversy between the Catholic world and Protestant. But the final question in the global controversy for the last days will be centered on authority and worship. Just as it did in the beginning between Cain and Abel. Between two brothers. So it will be in the end. Between an apostate Christian power that unites with the political power to form a global union of church and state requiring the world to surrender to their authority, and those who "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus". Revelation 14:12
What characteristics should mark the apostate church as being identifiable as apostate? What should we expect to see taking place even now in the religious and political sphere?
Claims to ultimate authority in religious matters.
Claims to a higher authority than either God or His word.
Doctrines and beliefs that reflect those claims, denying scripture but claiming to be for the 'common good'.
A willingness, even need, to associate with and partner with secular powers in order to legislate on her behalf.

Are you a fundamentalist who believes scripture, has hope in the second coming, believes prophecy, denies the authority of political and religious institutions when they contradict the word of God, rejects the principles behind the present moves toward globalist unity and one world authority? Then you are a terrorist and one to be watched.
Who rejects Sola scriptura?
Who rejects Sola fide?
Who rejects Sola Christus?
Who desiresa fascist socialist global governance?
Who's working behind the scenes to accomplish this? What political leaders today have been trained and educated I'm their institutions and are working toward those same goals? They are not your friends nor are they to be trusted. And they own everything, and what little they don't own, they want. Including you.

 

[amigo de christo]

I agree.

I know my friend . Now let the glorious LORD be praised and thanked .

 

[amigo de christo]

That is above my pay grade, BH. It's not for me to determine who is a son and who is not.

It's my responsibility to keep the faith and not become illegitimate.

I know from experience that the spankings from the Lord are present with His sons.

There will be no doubt, you will know where it came from and what you did to receive it.

Thus its our duty to correct any brethren in any error .
But believe me you can know one by their fruits .
One who can embrace sin does not know the LORD .
You can easily discern the mouths only verses those who love in spirit and in truth .
Let me give an example .
If a lamb errs it gets convicted . IT DONT JUSTIFY and HONOR ITS SIN and say HEY GOD MADE ME LIKE THIS .
I mean if one is truly born again , THEY DO have what is known as the HOLY , HOLY , HOLY Spirit .
IF one has the HOLY SPIRIT , they can have no rest nor peace in evil .
If a man can come into your church and holler I AM GAY AND I AM PROUD OF IT , No matter how much he praises
and thanks GOD , ITS ALL FALSE . cause where is the conviction .
Where is the evidence one even has the HOLY SPIRIT in them . ITS IN THEY FRUITS , not just in the lips .
SO , charlie my next question is , HOW Come so many within the churches
openly wont correct sin , not only that they have come to the conclusion some sins just aint sin anymore .
CAUSE GOD SURE DONT LEAD US IN THAT DIRECTION . THE FLESH WOULD , BUT NOT GOD .
SO how come so many wont correct PC sins . and worse they even accept it as good .
Answer . THEY NOT BORN AGAIN , they follow another jesus and it wont save them .

 

[amigo de christo]

The term 'legalistic' of applied often by those unwilling to obey certain scriptural Commandments. God has ultimate authority. The very moment we reason against a commandment, be it OT or NT, we are placing ourselves as an authority above God. And if we use other's education, principles, teaching, reputation, or fame as our yardstick for moral or doctrinal standards, they become our god. To whom or to whatever we surrender our, as Lisbeth put it, 'mental or intellectual autonomy' to, they become the object of our worship.
In Revelation, it says the whole world will soon be 'wondering after the beast'. They will quote: KJV Revelation 13:4
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

They worship the dragon by proxy, because they surrender their wills and autonomy to the beast, granting him ultimate authority over their lives. This is a soon to be realized global phenomenon, and we ought to be looking now to global movements toward this united collective mindset, and that unity must include both religious and secular political powers. I have been observing this movement for years now, have you?

For example. Christian forums all have one thing in common. Controversy and debate. And one of the most common is the debate over obedience. Who's authority do you submit to. Hence this thread... Sola scriptura. Hence the controversy between the Catholic world and Protestant. But the final question in the global controversy for the last days will be centered on authority and worship. Just as it did in the beginning between Cain and Abel. Between two brothers. So it will be in the end. Between an apostate Christian power that unites with the political power to form a global union of church and state requiring the world to surrender to their authority, and those who "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus". Revelation 14:12
What characteristics should mark the apostate church as being identifiable as apostate? What should we expect to see taking place even now in the religious and political sphere?
Claims to ultimate authority in religious matters.
Claims to a higher authority than either God or His word.
Doctrines and beliefs that reflect those claims, denying scripture but claiming to be for the 'common good'.
A willingness, even need, to associate with and partner with secular powers in order to legislate on her behalf.

Are you a fundamentalist who believes scripture, has hope in the second coming, believes prophecy, denies the authority of political and religious institutions when they contradict the word of God, rejects the principles behind the present moves toward globalist unity and one world authority? Then you are a terrorist and one to be watched.
Who rejects Sola scriptura?
Who rejects Sola fide?
Who rejects Sola Christus?
Who desiresa fascist socialist global governance?
Who's working behind the scenes to accomplish this? What political leaders today have been trained and educated I'm their institutions and are working toward those same goals? They are not your friends nor are they to be trusted. And they own everything, and what little they don't own, they want. Including you.

Tell that to the hug and accept all churches . they have no idea what spirit they are of nor whom they follow .
Folks have no idea that for a while now THEY have infiltrated all religoins and all faiths within christendom
to take the churches into a direction of unity and common ground for one goal .
CREATE A RELIGION that will serve THEM and their agenda . Folks got no idea
that satan is fast at work and that he too can holler unity , love , tolerance , freedom , liberty , holiness
and etc . BUT rest assured his version of said words WONT AGREE WITH GODS VERSION . HE is a liar
and those who do his work are owned by him and lie very well and are very crafity indeed .
But they aint fooling GOD but rather themselves . IF any other comes preaching another jesus , MY ADVICE IS
DONT HEED IT . FOLLOW the biblical one . Follow what the apostles also left us in letters .
Too many are being led by what they THINK is JESUS what they THINK is the SPIRIT
only its not . ITS the dragon , spirit of anti christ and it feeds the FLESH . But then this is why many love it and embrace it .

 

[Charlie24]

Thus its our duty to correct any brethren in any error .
But believe me you can know one by their fruits .
One who can embrace sin does not know the LORD .
You can easily discern the mouths only verses those who love in spirit and in truth .
Let me give an example .
If a lamb errs it gets convicted . IT DONT JUSTIFY and HONOR ITS SIN and say HEY GOD MADE ME LIKE THIS .
I mean if one is truly born again , THEY DO have what is known as the HOLY , HOLY , HOLY Spirit .
IF one has the HOLY SPIRIT , they can have no rest nor peace in evil .
If a man can come into your church and holler I AM GAY AND I AM PROUD OF IT , No matter how much he praises
and thanks GOD , ITS ALL FALSE . cause where is the conviction .
Where is the evidence one even has the HOLY SPIRIT in them . ITS IN THEY FRUITS , not just in the lips .
SO , charlie my next question is , HOW Come so many within the churches
openly wont correct sin , not only that they have come to the conclusion some sins just aint sin anymore .
CAUSE GOD SURE DONT LEAD US IN THAT DIRECTION . THE FLESH WOULD , BUT NOT GOD .
SO how come so many wont correct PC sins . and worse they even accept it as good .
Answer . THEY NOT BORN AGAIN , they follow another jesus and it wont save them .

Great post, amigo de christo! I have calmed down quite a bit in my older years. I have learned that only the Holy Spirit can break the barriers that Satan has placed. But I still from time to time lose my cool, so to speak. Then become ashamed of myself and ask the Lord to forgive me.

Brother, all we can do is to give them what the Lord has given us, and let the Holy Spirit take it from there. I'm not sure that I myself have learned this as fully as I should. The older I get the more I not only talk it, but practice it.

I can see your heart, Brother, and I know that the Spirit of Christ dwells in you! I see your concern for the lost and confused, but more importantly, God sees it! Just do what you have been doing as you are led to do it. Your labor is not in vain, and the Lord has accomplished many things that you may not be aware of in your dedication to Him.

Patience, patience, patience, is what we are so long in learning, lol. Letting God do the work as we share what He has given us.

Sooner than we think, either through the grave or the resurrection, the door will be shut for us. The Lord will wind this thing up and all opportunities to carry out His Commission will be gone. Brother, take advantage of the time you have to proclaim the riches of His Kingdom. Look forward to the words, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

May the Lord bless you my Brother!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is above my pay grade, BH. It's not for me to determine who is a son and who is not.

It's my responsibility to keep the faith and not become illegitimate.

I know from experience that the spankings from the Lord are present with His sons.

There will be no doubt, you will know where it came from and what you did to receive it.

We have to follow our instructions. Continue in the Word and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free (John 8:31-32). Other translations say abide. It means we have to keep putting the Word back inside us. You cannot speak against the Word, either (even when we don’t like it).

 

[Charlie24]

We have to follow our instructions. Continue in the Word and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free (John 8:31-32). Other translations say abide. It means we have to keep putting the Word back inside us. You cannot speak against the Word, either (even when we don’t like it).

You know, BH, concerning continuing in the Word. There are so many grey areas in Scripture that must be explained by other Scripture and then other Scripture that we all get separated down the line.

Scripture explaining Scripture is the general rule for determining doctrine, but when one understands the Scripture to say this, and then adds it to that, well you see what I mean.

There is a certain order in which things must be understood to determine the truth. I'm certainly not saying that I'm right about everything. None of can say that while being honest. But don't you think that certain doctrines should be nailed down in general? For example, salvation is the most important subject found in Scripture. But yet there are many different explanations for salvation that certainly do not agree and are quite frank, the opposite of one another.

So for us to continue in the Word is a one on one situation with God for those who are on course with the truth. Not all of us are there, and so the truth is not in everyone who considers themselves, "continuing in the Word."

 

[Brakelite]

You know, BH, concerning continuing in the Word. There are so many grey areas in Scripture that must be explained by other Scripture and then other Scripture that we all get separated down the line.

Scripture explaining Scripture is the general rule for determining doctrine, but when one understands the Scripture to say this, and then adds it to that, well you see what I mean.

There is a certain order in which things must be understood to determine the truth. I'm certainly not saying that I'm right about everything. None of can say that while being honest. But don't you think that certain doctrines should be nailed down in general? For example, salvation is the most important subject found in Scripture. But yet there are many different explanations for salvation that certainly do not agree and are quite frank, the opposite of one another.

So for us to continue in the Word is a one on one situation with God for those who are on course with the truth. Not all of us are there, and so the truth is not in everyone who considers themselves, "continuing in the Word."

There is in many the Babylonian Spirit that declares, "I can do this". (Think the tower of Babel). Self sufficiency and an independent mindset is the enemy to the Christian way of life, and constantly impedes our understanding and acceptance of biblical truth.
KJV 2 Corinthians 10:5
5 "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ"
is a life long work. Wisdom, discernment and understanding biblical truth is not dependant on education but revelation. God reveals Himself to the humble. To those who recognize their need of a Savior, and those who seek to know Him above all else, and admit their need of Him in all things.
KJV Jeremiah 9:23-24
23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Like our Saviour, we are in this world to do service for God. We are here to become like God in character, and by a life of service to reveal Him to the world. In order to be co-workers with God, in order to become like Him and to reveal His character, we must know Him aright. We must know Him as He reveals Himself. A knowledge of God is the foundation of all true education and of all true service. It is the only real safeguard against temptation. It is this alone that can make us like God in character.

It's interesting, and encouraging, that Jesus never censured human weakness. But He did rebuke the hypocrites, the deceivers, and the liars.

 

[Gottservant]

I've been watching some religious talks from different churches as I still haven't decided which church to join and in one I'm noticing legalism. And it's not such a bad thing as they stress obeying the commandments. But as I watch and listen to the talks I'm hearing a couple things that throw me off, and they appear to be centered around legalism.

1. That we need to prove to God that we are worthy be saved.

2. That we will go to the after life area that we know we belong and know we are worthy of.

As far as number 1. I think we need to provide works meet for repentance. But I know I can't do anything that will save myself.

And number 2 just sounds all wrong to me. As people can be shamed into guilt by secular people just the same as religious people.

Does anybody else encounter these things in their religion or similar ideas brought on by legalism.

I just want to discuss these legalism brought on ideas so I can get a better understanding of what I believe and don't believe.

Legalism can only ultimately be fixed, with appropriate works.

The core work that God does is forgive, all our other works add to that.

We must be diligent in prayer that we escape carousing, drunkenness and cares of this life (Jesus), as if our forgiveness is a given thing (not something we continue to thank God for)

 

[Phoneman777]

I've been watching some religious talks from different churches as I still haven't decided which church to join and in one I'm noticing legalism. And it's not such a bad thing as they stress obeying the commandments. But as I watch and listen to the talks I'm hearing a couple things that throw me off, and they appear to be centered around legalism.

1. That we need to prove to God that we are worthy be saved.

2. That we will go to the after life area that we know we belong and know we are worthy of.

As far as number 1. I think we need to provide works meet for repentance. But I know I can't do anything that will save myself.

And number 2 just sounds all wrong to me. As people can be shamed into guilt by secular people just the same as religious people.

Does anybody else encounter these things in their religion or similar ideas brought on by legalism.

I just want to discuss these legalism brought on ideas so I can get a better understanding of what I believe and don't believe.

Obedience is definitely "proof" (1 John 2:3-4 KJV) but not for the benefit of God - he already knows everything.

It's "proof" we're on the right track (James 1:22-25 KJV), and the lack thereof is "proof" in the day of Judgment that we deserve our tragic fate.

 

[Gospel Believer]

How do you determine if someone is a son or a bastard?

Anyways, with this kind of over confident attitude of being invincible and locked into the kingdom, there is the danger of teaching against the fear of God (which never turns out well for a person). For the Scriptures talk about how there are those who have no fear of God before their eyes.

Why would Jesus warn how just the sin of lusting can lead us to be cast bodily into hellfire?



Jesus came to His Own, His fellow Jews...yet most did not Believe in Him......But to all of those that “ DID” Believe in His Name, He gave them the Privilege to be the SONS OF GOD......John 1:12....
Do you believe that Jesus “WAS” Who He claimed to be—— God’s only Begotten Son and Your Savior? In that case, you are “ good to go”...... you are no longer a “ bastard”..... you are a Child of God......Saved forever .....it’s a Promise Of Jesus.....If you Believe in Him , you have * ALREADY* “ Passed From Death unto Life Eternal “

That warning about being in danger of Damnation for merely harboring a Lustful Thought? Jesus said that to burst the “Self-Righteous Balloons” Of Those That Thought That they were “ Good Enough” to Merit Salvation because they thought that they had “ kept the Law”......The Pharisees Of those days thought that they were “ hot stuff” because they never committed Adultery—- they kept the Law! Jesus let them know that if they had ever lusted over a woman, they were just as guilty as an Adulterer in God’s eyes.....They May have kept the “ Letter” of the Law, But just like every other human being , they had violated the “ Spirit” of the Law......The whole Point Of Jesus Warning was to let everybody know that nobody could ever “ Merit” Salvation....everybody is a Sinner That MUST have a Savior.....That “ Savior” Being Him! The goal was to drive people to their knees just like the example of the Sinful Publican that saw his Lost Condition and Could only cry out —- “ Lord, have Mercy on me, a Sinner!” That guy went home Saved— “ Justified” ....have YOU been driven to your knees yet, Sinner? You had bette hope so!

 

[mailmandan]

The washing away of sins by the Blood of Christ took place the very moment Paul believed on Christ on the road to Damascus.

Three days later Paul was water baptized symbolizing those sins being washed way, and His new faith in Christ.

In regards to Acts 22:16, as Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ, but it does not literally wash away our sins, contrary to his conclusion. Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

In Acts 10:43, receiving remission of sins is connected with "believes in Him" and not with baptism (Acts 10:43-47). In Acts 9, Jesus told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto Me" (vs. 15), although the apostle had not yet been water baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15) and such a commission is not for one who is still lost in their sins. Before Paul’s baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His name’s sake" (9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christ’s sake? NO.

So, Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was BEFORE he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

*It's interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was still lost in his sins.

No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa. *Hermeneutics.

 

[mailmandan]

Read it again, Titus! Does it not say "The like figure" whereas even baptism does also now save us?

What do you suppose "the like figure" means?

In regards to 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

The Greek word “antitupon,” as used in I Peter 3: 21, is “an adjective, used as a noun,” and denotes, in the NT, “a corresponding type,” being “said of baptism.” “The circumstances of the flood, the ark and its occupants, formed a type, and baptism forms “a corresponding type,” each setting forth the spiritual realities of the death, burial, and resurrection of believers in their identification with Christ. Noah was saved by the ark “through (via) water.” Water was not the means of their salvation, but the ark. The ark is what both delivered and preserved them. Their salvation was typical of the salvation promised to the Christian. It pictured it. So also does Christian baptism picture the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. *By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience -through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

 

[mailmandan]

True saving faith is never alone. It will always taken action.
Jesus said He who enters the kingdom does so by water and Spirit, John 3:5. Jesus repeats in His great commission that belief and baptism saves, Mark 16:15-16. Jesus never taught ones faith without obedience saves.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on our works) that we are saved and accounted as righteous on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9; Ephesians 2:8,9); yet the faith that justifies never remains alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). An empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" (barren of works - James 2:14) is not authentic faith.

In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (vs. 4) and with "flesh" (vs. 6). In that case, such people believe that Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, "flesh" birth (accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

*So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.*

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith alone salvation plainly contradicts the Bible,
James 2:24,
-You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

An empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" (barren of works - James 2:14) is what James has in mind here. Hence, "faith alone" or "faith only" in that sense. James 2:24 - You see then that a man is justified (shown to be right) by works and not by (a bare profession of) faith (that remains) alone (barren of works). You need to realize that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Faith only salvation is saved by a,
Loveless faith
Dead faith
Disobedient faith.

You are describing a 'bare profession of faith' which is not authentic faith, hence loveless, dead, disobedient. Authentic faith on the other hand trusts only in Christ for salvation and not in works (hence, faith "rightly understood" in Christ alone - Romans 4:5-6), expresses itself through love (Galatians 5:6; 1 John 4:7), is alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5) and results in obedience/works. (Matthew 13:23; Ephesians 2:10)

 

[Phoneman777]

You know, BH, concerning continuing in the Word. There are so many grey areas in Scripture that must be explained by other Scripture and then other Scripture that we all get separated down the line.

Scripture explaining Scripture is the general rule for determining doctrine, but when one understands the Scripture to say this, and then adds it to that, well you see what I mean.

There is a certain order in which things must be understood to determine the truth. I'm certainly not saying that I'm right about everything. None of can say that while being honest. But don't you think that certain doctrines should be nailed down in general? For example, salvation is the most important subject found in Scripture. But yet there are many different explanations for salvation that certainly do not agree and are quite frank, the opposite of one another.

So for us to continue in the Word is a one on one situation with God for those who are on course with the truth. Not all of us are there, and so the truth is not in everyone who considers themselves, "continuing in the Word."

I know exactly what you mean about Christians not continuing in the Word.
Genesis 2:7 KJV right there in the beginning says "man BECAME a living Soul" when the Body and Breath of Life were joined...crystal clear evidence that Adam IS a Soul - not GIVEN a Soul. A Soul is the whole, complete, entire being comprised of its parts, the Body and the Breath of Life.

So, how is it 6,000 years later, Christianity has joined with the entire pagan world in teaching man "has an immortal Soul inhabiting his Body until death releases it to continue on another plain of existence"?

They've failed to "continue in My word". Souls are not immortal because human beings are not immortal: we die. At death, our Body returns to the Earth, the Breath of Life returns to God, and the Soul ceases until the one or the other resurrection. Would God people would believe Genesis 2:7 KJV.

 

[mailmandan]

That is above my pay grade, BH. It's not for me to determine who is a son and who is not.

It's my responsibility to keep the faith and not become illegitimate.

I know from experience that the spankings from the Lord are present with His sons.

There will be no doubt, you will know where it came from and what you did to receive it.

Hebrews 12:6 (AMPC) - For the Lord corrects and disciplines everyone whom He loves, and He punishes, even scourges, every son whom He accepts and welcomes to His heart and cherishes. 7 You must submit to and endure [correction] for discipline; God is dealing with you as with sons. For what son is there whom his father does not [thus] train and correct and discipline? 8 Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God’s children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all].