Lessons for historical Mary

[Stranger]

Lol.....I don't have a complaint. I am simply responding to your post's. YOU are the one who started this thread to school me about Quantrill and pointed out how you thought I regurgitated a distorted view of Quantrill. Instead I schooled you.

In your original post you started it with a complaint about me and you quoted my statement: "I disapprove of respecting a man who has been called one of the psychopathic killers in America...and ordered/participated in the burning, looting and killing of the citizens of Lawrence Kansas"

Nothing....I repeat NOTHING....you have written has changed my mind. It is concerning to me how you have turned this from YOU being the complainant to me being the complainant.

I taught you about an eyewitness account of the Lawrence Massacre that was written within days of that horrible event. That eyewitness account included MULTIPLE eyewitness statements. I taught you about the historical record of the Tate House ambush that contradicts what is written in McCorkles book.

If you are unable to use a simple search engine (google, bing, internet explorer etc) to find out what Cordley wrote then get someone in your home to teach you how to use a search engine. If you have no one in your home here is the best I can do to help you: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...733A0A8C518938650820733A0A8C5189&&FORM=VRDGAR

I know what war is. I have read the historical records and personal letters of the brave men who have fought in them. If you don't understand what "there were bad men on both sides" means then I can't help you. You keep defending the actions of a BAD MAN by pointing to the actions of other bad men. I haven't defended the actions of any bad man....north or south....you have. Enough said.

Mary

Half truth Mary...you are true to the yankee half truth speakers. Yes I started this thread. But that is not the whole truth. It was started due to your complaints given in post #221 in the thread 'Communion vs Holy Communion'. Are you still Lol? You were always the one complaining. I responded.

I know I won't change your mind. You can't. You have retired and there is no fixing all the false history you have been teaching. For you to come to grips that you have been doing so, would be to much to bear. As you now have no way of repairing the damage done.

If you have something from Cordley, then produce it. You have said there is contradiction to the date of McCorkle's joining Quantrill, yet you haven't produced it. Don't send me to a link. I question your ability as a teacher when all you do is send me to a link.

I haven't heard you identify any 'badmen' of the North. Go ahead, I would love to hear your list. Then I have a list also. We will see if it is the same.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I know this is a waste if time but I wonder if you would take the time to read and quote from this book?

The Devil Knows How To Ride: The True Story Of William Clarke Quantril And His Confederate Raiders by Edward Leslie

Mary

I tell you what Mary. I know if you recommend this book that it is the yankee version. But I will do what I can to get a copy if possible. Till I do, I will say no more about it.

How are you liking John Brown up to this point? And the North's acceptance of this psychopathic killer?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

continued from post #38

The 'Secret Six' directly supported John Brown through money, moral support, and preaching his abolitionist cause that led to the Harpers Ferry terrorist attack. Here are their names.

1.) George Luthor Sterns
2.) Gerrit Smith
3.) Thomas Wentworth Higginson
4.) Samuel Gridley Howe
5.) Theodore Parker
6.) Franklin B. Sanborn

After the attack on Harpers Ferry most fled the country fearing being arrested as accomplices, as they should have been. Their names became known as letters from them to John Brown were found among Browns stuff. And of course the North acted outraged at the attack. But were they? Suffice it to say at this point that none of them were brought to justice. And all were received well by the North when the war started. But at this point I want to address their link to Transcendentalism.

Again, the quotes I give come from (John Brown Abolitionist, David S. Reynolds)

"Not long after Brown ordered the pikes, Frank Sanborn took him to Concord, the home of Transcendentalism. No one shaped the John Brown image more strongly than did the Transcendentalists, the nation's leading intellectuals. Their admiration of him laid the basis for the later widespread deification of him in the North." (p. 214-215)

"The relationship between this influential group and John Brown is an untold story in Civil War history. For a long time historians maintained that the Transcendentalists had little connection with antislavery reform and did not factor in the background of the war.....Actually, had the Transcendentalists not sanctified the arch-Abolitionist John Brown, he might have very well remained an obscure, tangential figure--a forgettable oddball. And had that happened, the suddenly intense polarization between the North and the South that followed Harpers Ferry might not have occurred. Frank Sanborn ensured John Brown's fame by bringing him into the Transcendentalist circle that immediately welcomed him and eventually magnified him to Christ-like proportions. " (p. 215)

"The Brown backers Sanborn organized, later known as the Secret Six, had strong links to Transcendentalism. The three most radical members of the group--Sanborn himself, Thomas Wentworth Higginson, and Theodore Parker--were devout followers of the Concord philosphy. A fourth, George Stearns, was a good friend of Emerson and his crowd. A fifth, Samuel Gridley Howe, was on the fringes of the Concord circle. Of the six, only the Peterboro philanthropist Gerrit Smith was outside the Transcendentalist set." (p. 215)

"Since the Harpers Ferry raid would not have come off without the support of the Secret Six, four of whom were connected to Transcendentalism, and since Transcendentalists would later take the lead in establishing Brown's reputation, the Concord philosophy must be recognized as a force behind the events that led to the Civil War." (p. 215)

to be continued:

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

continued from post #43

So, as has already been seen, spiritism, free love, Foruierism (a form of utopian socialism), and Transcendentalism, was sprouting in the industrial north. Coupled with this was a liberal Christianity know as Unitarian. Unitarianism is "A system of religious thought which rejects the doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of Christ, and seeks to show that genuinely religious community can be created without doctrinal conformity. It has evolved from emphasis on scriptural authority to a foundation on reason and experience. Unitarians believe in the goodness of human nature, criticize doctrines of the Fall, the Atonement, and eternal damnation, and require only openness to divine inspiration. " (The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, Douglas, Cairns, Ruark, Zondervan pub., 1978, p.995) Thus it is not hard to see how this 'goodness of man' christianity would be so appalled at the institution of slavery.

But while the industrial North was being turned over to all these 'isms' the agricultural South was holding to the Bible as the Word of God. This is why the South is known as the Bible Belt. And though no one likes it, the Bible sanctions the institution of slavery. So a liberal Christianity in the North would produce and later find an ally in the Transcendentalist for the goodness of man and opposition to slavery.

Transcendentalists...."The American Unitarian Association was formed in 1825 but by 1836 the Boston churches were torn again as rebellious young preachers, members of the ; 'Transcendental Club' abandoned Unitarianism, feeling it to be complacent and sterile in its rationalism. Among the most prominent were Ralph Waldo Emerson, GeorgeRipley...Theodore Parker, James Freeman Clarke..Orestes Brownson..and the layman Henry David Thoreau...they tried to introduce a strong note of mysticism and contemporary Romanticism's view of individual intuition, flashes and insights into truth,as the highest form of knowledge....For several years much of their writing appeared in the 'Dial', and Emerson's 'Divinity School Address' and Parker's sermon on 'The Transient and Permanent in Christianity' were expositions of their thought..." (The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, Douglas, Cairns, Ruark, Zondervan pub., 1978, p. 982-983)

to be continued:

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

continued from post #44
After the Harpers Ferry raid and Brown was being tried, many tried to separate themselves from Brown at the beginning. But the Transcendentalists would began their work of making Brown a Christ-like figure. And it would be their make over that would catch like fire among the North.

Quotes are from (John Brown Abolitionist, David S. Reynolds)

"Joshua Giddings, the Ohio Republican who had met Brown on a number of occasions, wanted to publicize the fact that the Virginia plan never came up during these meetings....Salmon P. Chase, the Republican governor of Ohio, assumed an attitude of condescending pity....He conceded that he had once donated money toward Brown's Kansas effort, but that was his only tie to Brown....Pity also characterized the response of Henry Ward Beecher, the period's leading antislavery preacher....I disapprove of his mad and feeble schemes."

"Given this avalanche of attacks on John Brown--from Democrats, from Southerners, and from Republicans--where did the overwhelming approval that the North later showered on Brown come from? Who kept alive his reputation long enough for sympathy to take root? Once more we must look to the Concord-Boston network of Brown supporters affiliated with Transcendentalism. " (p. 363)

"Emerson also wanted Brown to be rescued....But Emerson implemented an even more important form of rescue: a metaphorical rescue, one that plucked Brown from the obloquy that assaulted him from all sides." (p. 363)

"By the late 185O's, Emerson was widely regarded as America's leading intellectual....When Emerson spoke, America listened." (p. 364-365)

"...Emerson's startling description of John Brown: 'That new saint, than whom none purer or more brave was ever led by love of men into conflict and death,--the new saint awaiting his martyrdom, and who, if he shall suffer, will make the gallows glorious like the cross." (p. 366)

Then after the hanging of John Brown...

"At a service held in Concord, Massachusetts, on the day of John Brown's hanging, Henry David Thoreau declared that Brown embodied 'transcendent moral greatness. Thoreau rhapsodized, 'Almost any noble verse may be read, either as his elegy or his eulogy'; Brown was 'one of those rare cases of heroes and martyrs for which the ritual of no church has provided." (p. 402)

"Ten days later Senator Andrew Johnson of Tennessee expressed a very different sentiment in a speech before the U.S. Senate as it prepared to investigate the Harpers Ferry raid. Johnson announced, 'I want these modern fanatics who have adopted John Brown as their Christ and their cross, to see what their Christ is....This old man Brown was nothing more than a murderer, a robber,a thief, and a traitor'." (p.402)

"For Thoreau, speaking at a memorial service he had organized with Emerson and Alcott, Brown was on the level of Christ and other exalted beings....Thoreau read verses from Andrew Marvell and Aytoun's 'Lays of the Scottish Cavaliers.' Alcott read Plato and an ode he had written for the occasion. Emerson read Brown's speech to the Virginia court and selections from his prison letters. Others read statements made by Solomon and Jesus Christ. " (p.402)

"For Andrew Johnson, comparison's between John Brown and Jesus--or anyone else good, for that matter --were absurd and dangerous....the future vice president of the United States launched a diatribe against Brown, whose true colors, he argued, were revealed at Pottawatomie in May 1856..." (p.402-403)

"One important convert to his (Brown's) side was Garrison (William Lloyd Garrison). As a committed pacifist who had once quarreled sharply with Brown, Garrison was not easy to win over...In the first few weeks after the raid, most of the pieces he ran in his paper were harsh indictments reprinted from other papers,....Garrison himself called the raid a 'well-intended but sadly misguided effort,' a 'wild and futile' enterprise. Despite his qualms over tactics, Garrison was a leading promoter of Brown's personal qualities." (p.404)

The North, due to its moving away from Bible believing Christianity, would embrace this Christ-like Brown. See how much religion played a role in that war?

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

Half truth Mary...you are true to the yankee half truth speakers. Yes I started this thread. But that is not the whole truth. It was started due to your complaints given in post #221 in the thread 'Communion vs Holy Communion'. Are you still Lol? You were always the one complaining. I responded.

I know I won't change your mind. You can't. You have retired and there is no fixing all the false history you have been teaching. For you to come to grips that you have been doing so, would be to much to bear. As you now have no way of repairing the damage done.

If you have something from Cordley, then produce it. You have said there is contradiction to the date of McCorkle's joining Quantrill, yet you haven't produced it. Don't send me to a link. I question your ability as a teacher when all you do is send me to a link.

I haven't heard you identify any 'badmen' of the North. Go ahead, I would love to hear your list. Then I have a list also. We will see if it is the same.

Stranger

Dear friend,

I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT ANYTHING. I SIMPLY STATED: I disapprove of respecting a man who has been called one of the psychopathic killers in America...and ordered/participated in the burning, looting and killing of the citizens of Lawrence Kansas"

That is a statement about my PERSONAL FEELINGS. I don't' understand how you twisted that into a complaint.

As far as the Cordley thing goes: If you choose to remain intellectually lazy then that is your choice.

What do you like about Quantrill? What are his good attributes?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

I tell you what Mary. I know if you recommend this book that it is the yankee version. But I will do what I can to get a copy if possible. Till I do, I will say no more about it.

How are you liking John Brown up to this point? And the North's acceptance of this psychopathic killer?

Stranger

Do you read what I write or do you just look for words/sentences that offend you??

I SAY AGAIN: "I disapprove of respecting a man (any man) that has done things like this."

If John Brown did anything like Quantrill did (tortured animals as a child, stole from his neighbors, killed indiscriminately, collected reward money for giving one human being to another human being to be placed back into slavery and tortured etc.) then I don't respect him either.

HAVE I FINALLY MADE MYSELF CLEAR????

You respect a man who did horrible things. I don't. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend my personal beliefs???? Most people would find it hard to comprehend YOUR personal beliefs.

Mary

 

[Stranger]

Do you read what I write or do you just look for words/sentences that offend you??

I SAY AGAIN: "I disapprove of respecting a man (any man) that has done things like this."

If John Brown did anything like Quantrill did (tortured animals as a child, stole from his neighbors, killed indiscriminately, collected reward money for giving one human being to another human being to be placed back into slavery and tortured etc.) then I don't respect him either.

HAVE I FINALLY MADE MYSELF CLEAR????

You respect a man who did horrible things. I don't. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend my personal beliefs???? Most people would find it hard to comprehend YOUR personal beliefs.

Mary

Never mind Mary.

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

Never mind Mary.

Stranger

I knew you would run eventually.

Are you having a difficult time thinking of an answer to my question from post #46:

What do you like about Quantrill? What are his good attributes?

Since you have taken on his name as your own on another website you must like something about him??

Curious Mary

 

[Stranger]

I knew you would run eventually.

Are you having a difficult time thinking of an answer to my question from post #46:

What do you like about Quantrill? What are his good attributes?

Since you have taken on his name as your own on another website you must like something about him??

Curious Mary

Never mind Mary.

Stranger

 

[Triumph1300]

I knew you would run eventually.

And this is Marymog's ultimate goal on this forum.

Belittling people in every single discussion she manages to get involved in.

I'm still surprised people answer her.

 

[Stranger]

I knew you would run eventually.

Are you having a difficult time thinking of an answer to my question from post #46:

What do you like about Quantrill? What are his good attributes?

Since you have taken on his name as your own on another website you must like something about him??

Curious Mary

OK Mary. Good News. I just received in the mail the book "The Devil Knows How To Ride" about Quantrill. So now, what in it do you think I need to quote or are afraid to quote?

Do you have the book also? Have you read it? Or are you just reading some links of what others say about it.

I will read it, though I know it will have the typical yankee slant. Kinda obivious when Quantrill is labeled the Devil in the title. Don't wait too long to respond as I am a pretty fast reader.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Marymog

You spoke of the Rev. Cordley in his book "A History of Lawerence" and cite some his comments on Quantrill's raid of Lawrence. There were several raids on Lawrence Kansas. Are you sure you are referencing the correct one by Quantrill?

The book you recommended, that I have now, (The Devil Knows How To Ride, Edward E. Leslie), quotes Cordley in (p. 15-16). "Nearly every house was entered, and many of them robbed, 'wrote the Reverend Richard Cordley in A History of Lawrence.' Trunks were broken open, clothing stolen, and every thing taken off to which they took a fancy. In the evening Governor Robinson's house was set on fire and burned to the ground."

But this is not Quantrill. The war hadn't even started yet. Thus you can see the importance of not isolating an event and labeling someone as evil without knowing the history leading up to it. And the more you learn about the events taking place at this time, the more you understand the reasons Quantrill and his men did what they did.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I knew you would run eventually.

Are you having a difficult time thinking of an answer to my question from post #46:

What do you like about Quantrill? What are his good attributes?

Since you have taken on his name as your own on another website you must like something about him??

Curious Mary

Here is another quote from the book you recommended me. (The Devil Knows How To Ride, Edward E. Leslie, p. 34)

"Those who have written about Quantrill since Edwards and Connelley have tended to follow their extremes, presenting him either as a heroic Confederate knight-errant or a brilliant but brutal psychopath.

"William H. Gregg knew better. Gregg had been Quantrill's lieutenant and friend, although he was not blind to his faults.

"One thing I do know, wrote Gregg after the turn of the century, and that is, he was a soldier, and not afraid to die, that he was equitable and just to friend and foe up to a certain period in the war...Quantrill and his men have been unjustly slandered by the people of the North, a people who even to this day know nothing of [that time], except what they have read in irresponsible books and newspapers. The time has come when their minds should be disabused.

"Gregg added, The greatest fault in the people who write of us is that they only tell one side of the story, just as though [the redlegs, jayhawkers, and Yankee troops] had the right to murder, burn, rob and steal and those whom they murdered, robbed and plundered had no right to resist."

Sounds like someone I could and do respect.

It is like I said Mary, the victors write the history. And you have bought it, hook, line, and sinker. And worse, you have probably taught it.

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

OK Mary. Good News. I just received in the mail the book "The Devil Knows How To Ride" about Quantrill. So now, what in it do you think I need to quote or are afraid to quote?

Do you have the book also? Have you read it? Or are you just reading some links of what others say about it.

I will read it, though I know it will have the typical yankee slant. Kinda obivious when Quantrill is labeled the Devil in the title. Don't wait too long to respond as I am a pretty fast reader.

Stranger

What do you like about Quantrill? What are his good attributes?

Since you have taken on his name as your own on another website you must like something about him??

 

[Marymog]

Marymog

You spoke of the Rev. Cordley in his book "A History of Lawerence" and cite some his comments on Quantrill's raid of Lawrence. There were several raids on Lawrence Kansas. Are you sure you are referencing the correct one by Quantrill?

The book you recommended, that I have now, (The Devil Knows How To Ride, Edward E. Leslie), quotes Cordley in (p. 15-16). "Nearly every house was entered, and many of them robbed, 'wrote the Reverend Richard Cordley in A History of Lawrence.' Trunks were broken open, clothing stolen, and every thing taken off to which they took a fancy. In the evening Governor Robinson's house was set on fire and burned to the ground."

But this is not Quantrill. The war hadn't even started yet. Thus you can see the importance of not isolating an event and labeling someone as evil without knowing the history leading up to it. And the more you learn about the events taking place at this time, the more you understand the reasons Quantrill and his men did what they did.

Stranger

"The Lawrence Massacre" is based on a letter written by Reverend Richard Cordley, pastor of the Congregational Church and eye witness to Quantrill’s Raid on Lawrence in 1863. The letter furnished by Reverend R. Cordley to the Congressional Record a few days after the event and before all the facts and incidents had become known which was republished in Boughton & McAllister’s Directory of Lawrence 1865.

 

[Stranger]

What do you like about Quantrill? What are his good attributes?

Since you have taken on his name as your own on another website you must like something about him??

Historical Mary

I have the book you recommended. I gave the quote in post #54 that provided, as I said, things I could respect. Why do you avoid what I say? Why do you avoid my quesitons in post #55?

Do you have this book you recommended?

What in it is there that you think I will be afraid to quote?

Again, there were several Lawrence raids. You say in post #56 that Cordley gives an eyewitness account. Ok, then supply it. Cordley gave accounts of many things that I see so far.

Have you even read the book you recommended? The author at the beginning gives plenty of history leading up to the events concerning the Lawrence raids. He explains what 'jayhawkers, redlegs, and northern troops, and bushwackers were. Something you had no clue of. One wonders why, you being a history teacher and all.

You are nothing but a politically correct history teacher, Mary. You don't know the history. You get it from social media which is permeated with 'what you should believe'.

In my post #54, what do you think about Gregg's comment about Quantrill, since he was Quantrill's Lieutenant. Your author, of the book you recommended, provided it.

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

Historical Mary

I have the book you recommended. I gave the quote in post #54 that provided, as I said, things I could respect. Why do you avoid what I say? Why do you avoid my quesitons in post #55?

Do you have this book you recommended?

What in it is there that you think I will be afraid to quote?

Again, there were several Lawrence raids. You say in post #56 that Cordley gives an eyewitness account. Ok, then supply it. Cordley gave accounts of many things that I see so far.

Have you even read the book you recommended? The author at the beginning gives plenty of history leading up to the events concerning the Lawrence raids. He explains what 'jayhawkers, redlegs, and northern troops, and bushwackers were. Something you had no clue of. One wonders why, you being a history teacher and all.

You are nothing but a politically correct history teacher, Mary. You don't know the history. You get it from social media which is permeated with 'what you should believe'.

In my post #54, what do you think about Gregg's comment about Quantrill, since he was Quantrill's Lieutenant. Your author, of the book you recommended, provided it.

Stranger

Post #55 was my post.

You quoted 190 words from a book. At NO POINT did you say what YOU LIKE or what his GOOD ATTRIBUTES are. NONE of the words are YOURS!!

Based on what you quoted do you agree that he was "a heroic Confederate knight-errant" or do you agree that he was "a brilliant but brutal psychopath." ???

Are you " blind to his faults. "???

Mary

 

[Stranger]

Post #55 was my post.

You quoted 190 words from a book. At NO POINT did you say what YOU LIKE or what his GOOD ATTRIBUTES are. NONE of the words are YOURS!!

Based on what you quoted do you agree that he was "a heroic Confederate knight-errant" or do you agree that he was "a brilliant but brutal psychopath." ???

Are you " blind to his faults. "???

Mary

Yes, post #55 is where you avoided my questions. Why?

I gave you the quote from Gregg who was Quantrill's Lieutenent. The author of the book you recommended said Gregg new better than the two extremes you want to paint. And I said concerning that quote, sounds like someone I could and do respect. So what is your problem now?

So, Mary, do you have this book you highly recommend? I doubt it. If you had you would never have said the things you have. My advice to you is to purchase it and read it. Then you would be able to tell the difference between a Jayhawker and Quantrill's men. Of course that involves time and effort. Much easier to go for the quick internet brief. That way you can pick the one you want to believe. And you call yourself a history teacher?

I am not blind to anyone's faults. You are blind to anything that runs contrary to the way you have taught. You refuse it. Quantrill must have been evil. Why? Because that is what you and others have taught.

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

Yes, post #55 is where you avoided my questions. Why?

I gave you the quote from Gregg who was Quantrill's Lieutenent. The author of the book you recommended said Gregg new better than the two extremes you want to paint. And I said concerning that quote, sounds like someone I could and do respect. So what is your problem now?

So, Mary, do you have this book you highly recommend? I doubt it. If you had you would never have said the things you have. My advice to you is to purchase it and read it. Then you would be able to tell the difference between a Jayhawker and Quantrill's men. Of course that involves time and effort. Much easier to go for the quick internet brief. That way you can pick the one you want to believe. And you call yourself a history teacher?

I am not blind to anyone's faults. You are blind to anything that runs contrary to the way you have taught. You refuse it. Quantrill must have been evil. Why? Because that is what you and others have taught.

Stranger

Yes, I have the book. I will discuss the contents of the book with you when you decide to have a conversation with me instead of making ignorant accusations.

I repeated my questions in post #55 because you didn't answer them and instead you asked me several questions. I will answer your questions when you answer mine. That is not how one has a CONVERSATION with another.

And I still at NO POINT have found in any of your post what you said what YOU LIKE about Quantrill or what his GOOD ATTRIBUTES are!!

I will start: He was dedicated to his cause and willing to die for it.

See, I said something good about him. Now it's your turn. (and you can't repeat what I just said)

Mary