Lessons for historical Mary

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Stranger

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I thought this was going to be a lesson for historical Mary. So far it has only been a lesson for @Stranger ;)

I look forward to the next lesson.

All in fun....Mary

As I asked before, what is your post #16 supposed to prove? Why do they call Quantrill and his men Jayhawkers?

We will see.

Stranger
 

Marymog

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Do you have the book? Yes/No? Check post #1. I gave the publishing co. and copyright date. If those are not the same you will probably have different page numbers. Or are you just getting this from the internet?

Wherever you are getting it, there is nothing on page 28-29 to indicate the date you are asking about. Give me the chapter it is found in, as that should not change. And I will look for it. I looked briefly through the book and could not see a date given where he joined.

Is this what you are going to rely on? You simply want to find some descrepancy in the book and so the story he told about the murder of his and his mens sisters is not to be believed?

Stranger

The book I have was printed by “Armstrong Herold Print in Armstrong Missouri”.

I think its from a library since it has the date stamped in it of Oct. 3 1914.

Page 28-29 are in Chapter IV.

I never suggested the “murder” was not to be believed. We are talking about McCorkle and his credibility. Not Quantrill and his life.

We are talking about when McCorkle joined Quantrill and the appearance of a discrepancy based on his own words.

When you catch up, let me know.

Historical Mary
 

Marymog

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As I asked before, what is your post #16 supposed to prove? Why do they call Quantrill and his men Jayhawkers?

We will see.

Stranger
Let me help you again. Post #16 is a historical record of 1 Union soldier killed at the Tate House. McCorkle suggested in his recollections that 40 Union soldiers were killed.

Notice the date of the Tate House incident in post #16???

When you establish the date that McCorkle joined Quantrill, which is written in his book, let me know.

Historical Mary
 

Marymog

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As I asked before, what is your post #16 supposed to prove? Why do they call Quantrill and his men Jayhawkers?

We will see.

Stranger
I don’t care WHY they call them Jayhawkers. I only care about their actions.

Mary
 

Stranger

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The book I have was printed by “Armstrong Herold Print in Armstrong Missouri”.

I think its from a library since it has the date stamped in it of Oct. 3 1914.

Page 28-29 are in Chapter IV.

I never suggested the “murder” was not to be believed. We are talking about McCorkle and his credibility. Not Quantrill and his life.

We are talking about when McCorkle joined Quantrill and the appearance of a discrepancy based on his own words.

When you catch up, let me know.

Historical Mary

There is no date given in chapter 4. Try again.

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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I don’t care WHY they call them Jayhawkers. I only care about their actions.

Mary
Well, calling Quantrill's men jayhawkers back then would be like mistaking the kkk for the naacp. Wouldn't happen. So, how could they make that mistake?

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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Let me help you again. Post #16 is a historical record of 1 Union soldier killed at the Tate House. McCorkle suggested in his recollections that 40 Union soldiers were killed.

Notice the date of the Tate House incident in post #16???

When you establish the date that McCorkle joined Quantrill, which is written in his book, let me know.

Historical Mary

Your the one worried about the date, not me. You need to establish it. I already said it is not stated where you said it was.

Concerning the 40 killed at the Tate house, McCorkle got that information later from neighbors. Most of the 40 were killed by their own men in a crossfire when Quantrill's men were escaping. Bottom line is, you can believe which ever one you want to.

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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Marymong

The only dates in ch. 4 pertain to the beginning of the war, 1861, and Quantrills raid of the Federals at Independence on Aug. 10, 1862. No date given for when McCorkle joined Quantrill. It would have been prior to the raid on Independence.


Stranger
 

Stranger

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To Marymog....another lesson

In posts #12-14, the subject of religion was brought up in the North and South. I had stated the the 'Christianity' of the North had become a social christianity and Jesus was just a social messiah. A good man. A ghandi of sorts. I think it is important to pursue this further. Perhaps some of the yankee idols can be thrown down. Can you sing "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"?

I will use the book (John Brown Abolitionist, David Reynolds, Vintage Books, 2006). You should like it as it is pro-yankee. I like it because, though I disagree with his conclusions, I believe he is honest in his presentation of facts. You probably ask what does John Brown have to do with the religion of the north? Well, it reveals a lot, as I think you will see. This will take more than a day for me to present, but , who knows when you will be back anyway.

We go back to May 24-25th, 1856. This is the day of the Pottawatomie murders by John Brown and his group. Remember, the War between the States would not start until 1861. All of this was leading up to it.

"Around ten o'clock at night on Saturday, May 24, the men seized their weapons and walked a mile north...They went first to the cabin of one of the settlers...to draw him out. The muzzle of a rifle poked at them through a chink, and they backed off. They went on to the nearby home of James Doyle and his family.

"In the cabin James Doyle, his wife, Mahala, and their six children lay asleep. A sharp rap on the door drew Doyle out of bed....As soon as Doyle opened the door...five armed men barged into the house. The leader, John Brown...announced they were from the Northern Army and were taking Doyle prisoner...Mahala Doyle, bursting into tears....

"She watched in horror as the invaders led him and her two oldest sons,...out into the night. She begged them to spare her sixteen-year-old son, John, and they did...As terrified as she and the young children were, they could not have imagined the atrocity that was about to happen.

"Brown's band led the three captives two hundred yards up the road that led into the woods. Owen and Salmon fell on them, hacking away with the heavy swords. In the melee, horrible wounds were inflicted. Drury Doyle's fingers and arms, raised to fen off blows, were severed, and his head and chest were gashed. His brother was stabbed through the head, jaw, and side, and the father was wounded in the breast. Although John Brown did not participate in the attack, he fired a single shot into the head of the senseless James Doyle to make sure of death.

"The group proceeded half a mile to the cabin of Allen Wilkinson...His wife roused him when she heard the dog barking....He asked the callers who they were. The reply was a shouted request for directions...When he opened the door, he found himself surrounded by four men...He was asked curtly to explain his position on slavery...he indicated that he opposed the Free State party, one of them declared, 'you are our prisoner'.....

"A hundred and fifty yards from the cabin Wilkinson met the same fate as the Doyles. Henry Thompson and Weiner, possibly with the help of one of the younger Browns, slashed him to death, stabbing him in the head and side. They heaved his body int dead brush.

The final victim, William Sherman, was staying at the home of a proslavery friend, James Harris,....Brown's party waded across the creek toward Harris's cabin....midnight had passed. The pious John Brown, once so careful about observing the Sabbath that he accepted no visitors on Sunday, was now prepared to kill on that day.

"When Brown and his party learned that Dutch Henry, their main target, was out on the prairie, they decided upon his brother Dutch Bill instead. They led Sherman to the edge of the creek, where Brown's two youngest sons, along with Weiner and Thompson, felled him....In the meantime, Brown and his followers hid out in the wilderness, resurfacing occasionally to battle proslavery forces. By the end of September, he had left Kansas for the East to raise funds for his war against slavery. " (p. 171-174)

to be continued.

Stranger
 
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Marymog

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There is no date given in chapter 4. Try again.

Stranger
I never said there was a date given. Read the chapter and build the timeline from his own words.

I'm not helping you on this one.....Try to do it on your own.

Historical Mary
 

Marymog

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Well, calling Quantrill's men jayhawkers back then would be like mistaking the kkk for the naacp. Wouldn't happen. So, how could they make that mistake?

Stranger
Don't know....Don't care. Your getting off track.

Historical Mary
 

Marymog

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Your the one worried about the date, not me. You need to establish it. I already said it is not stated where you said it was.

Concerning the 40 killed at the Tate house, McCorkle got that information later from neighbors. Most of the 40 were killed by their own men in a crossfire when Quantrill's men were escaping. Bottom line is, you can believe which ever one you want to.

Stranger
Sooooo once again 50 years later McCorkle recalls being told by neighbors that 40 Union Soldiers were killed at the Tate House and the Major in charge of the soldiers writes the day of the Tate House ambush that only one soldier died and you are telling me I can believe which ever one I want???? I believe both of them. I believe McCorkle when, according to HIS timeline, didn't join Quantrill until 4 months AFTER the Tate House ambush and I believe the Major when he said only one soldier was killed.

Reverend Cordley writes about Lawrence Kansas Massacre within days of it happening and includes eyewitness accounts of what happened and you believe he is biased and can't be believed. But McCorkle isn't biased and his memory can be trusted 50 years later????

Are you being serious?????

I don't think you are so I think we should stop talking about the Tate House and the Lawrence Massacre.

My original statement still holds true: I disapprove of respecting a man who has been called one of the psychopathic killers in America...and ordered/participated in the burning, looting and killing of the citizens of Lawrence Kansas.

I now make a new statement: It saddens me that some people can't take off their rose colored glasses and have a serious conversation.

Historical Mary
 

Stranger

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I never said there was a date given. Read the chapter and build the timeline from his own words.

I'm not helping you on this one.....Try to do it on your own.

Historical Mary

You haven't helped on any of them. I already told you in #28 that from the information given McCorkle joined sometime prior to the raid on Independence. I don't see a problem.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Sooooo once again 50 years later McCorkle recalls being told by neighbors that 40 Union Soldiers were killed at the Tate House and the Major in charge of the soldiers writes the day of the Tate House ambush that only one soldier died and you are telling me I can believe which ever one I want???? I believe both of them. I believe McCorkle when, according to HIS timeline, didn't join Quantrill until 4 months AFTER the Tate House ambush and I believe the Major when he said only one soldier was killed.

Reverend Cordley writes about Lawrence Kansas Massacre within days of it happening and includes eyewitness accounts of what happened and you believe he is biased and can't be believed. But McCorkle isn't biased and his memory can be trusted 50 years later????

Are you being serious?????

I don't think you are so I think we should stop talking about the Tate House and the Lawrence Massacre.

My original statement still holds true: I disapprove of respecting a man who has been called one of the psychopathic killers in America...and ordered/participated in the burning, looting and killing of the citizens of Lawrence Kansas.

I now make a new statement: It saddens me that some people can't take off their rose colored glasses and have a serious conversation.

Historical Mary

I haven't seen anything you have produced by a so-called Rev.Cordley. All you produced was something by a Maj. Banzof. If you have something from Cordley, present it. I don't see the problem here. I don't deny that the destruction and massacre at Lawrence did take place. So what is your complaint?


You keep claiming that in Ch 4 you have developed a time line that according to it, McCorkle couldn't have been there. But that is not true. Ch. 4 begins in 1859 with the hanging of John Brown. (p.53) Then on (p.56) the date 1861 is given as the start of the war and Quantrill had 6 men with him at that time. It was after that when McCorkle tells of his joining Quantrill. (p. 57) In 1862 McCorkle was with Quantrill in the raid on Independence which occurred in Aug. of 1862. So, sometime between 1861 and 1862, he joined Quantrill.

Yankees called Southernors lots of things. And still do. When they killed the citizens, it is called total war. When Quantrill killed citizens, he is a psychopathic killer. And you speak of rose colored glasses.

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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Don't know....Don't care. Your getting off track.

Historical Mary

Well, you want to pick a bone over the date of McCorkle's joining Quantrill. And yet the source you provide doesn't know the difference between a jayhawker and Quantrill's men. But yet, you don't care about that, and I am the one sidetracking.

Stranger
 

Marymog

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Well, you want to pick a bone over the date of McCorkle's joining Quantrill. And yet the source you provide doesn't know the difference between a jayhawker and Quantrill's men. But yet, you don't care about that, and I am the one sidetracking.

Stranger
Establishing the accuracy of the CORRECT DATE shows if McCorkle lied or has a bad memory. It was one or the other.

Is there anything else you would like to talk about or get off your chest?

Mary
 

Stranger

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Establishing the accuracy of the CORRECT DATE shows if McCorkle lied or has a bad memory. It was one or the other.

Is there anything else you would like to talk about or get off your chest?

Mary

Yet you refuse to establish it. See post #34.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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continued from post #29

John Brown was now under indictment by the U.S. government for the Pottawatomie murders. And he was caught as he left Kansas and went into Nebraska. "Although under indictment for the Pottawatomie killings, Brown thought he could slip out of Kansas without being noticed. He was wrong....He left Kansas in a teamster's wagon...crossing over into Nebraska before U.S. troops caught him." (Reynolds, p. 207)

But even though Brown was caught, he remained a free man in the free states of the North. And was allowed to solicit for money for his war. "...Brown, shivering with ague and fever, reached Tabor, Iowa. This frontier town, which had been founded in 1848 by Abolitionists from Ohio, was a western station on the Underground Railroad. Welcomed as a guest in the home of the genial Quaker Jonas Jones, Brown was glad to be among lik-minded folk again....He wanted Tabor to be the training base for a volunteer army of anti-slavery warriors. " (p. 207)

"After a week in Tabor, Brown...felt strong enough to travel to Chicago. From there he went to Ohio,where Congressman Joshua Giddings gave him a letter of introduction to potential funders. Continuing east Brown stopped at Peterboro, New York, to consult with the antislavery philanthropist Gerrit Smith.

"....January 1857 found Brown in Boston, where he looked up Franklin B. Sanborn, the secretary of the Massachusetts State Kansas Committe. When Brown arrived at Sanborn's office...he unwittingly opened the door not only to Harpers Ferry but also to his future fame. Through Sanborn he gained access to arms and money for Kansas and later, for Harpers Ferry.....Excited, Sanborn wrote an Abolitionist friend, the Worcester minister Thomas Wentworth Higginson, urging him to come to Boston to meet Brown....He took so strongly to Brown that he soon became his most radical supporter.

"Sanborn also introduced Brown to another antislavery minister,Theodore Parker. The learned Parker had gained notoriety as a clergyman so liberal that he was forced to preach in the Boston Music Hall instead of in a church. Even though his religious views were poles apart from those of the Calvinistic Brown, the two met on the common ground of antislavery....He was thrilled to meet the militant Brown, whom he invited to a Sunday reception at his home.

"At the reception Brown met William Lloyd Garrison...longtime pacifist....He was more in tune with three other Boston Abolitionists he met that month: Amos A. Lawrence, Dr.Samuel Gridley Howe, and George Luther Stearns. The wealthy Lawrence, after whom Lawrence, Kansas was named, was a chief donor to Eli Thayer's New England Emigrant Aid Society. He enjoyed hearing firsthand about the Territory's antislavery wars when Brown visited him...he offered to give $1,000 a year to Brown's indigent family and the same amount annually to the antislavery cause in Kansas until freedom was ensured there." (p. 208-209)

Note here the freedom that the Northern people have allowed Brown to have and to help to fund his terrorism upon the Southern people. All the while knowing he was a murderer. Yet he is embraced. Note also the liberal Christian preachers involved in supporting him. But it would not just be liberal Christianity, but the new cult of 'Transcendentalism'. "Movements such as spiritualism, free love, Fourierism, Transcendentalism, and women's rights had,in fact sprouted prolifically in the antebellum North,a society caught in the throes of reform and creative ferment." (p. 15)

The big money men, the backers of John Brown's war would be known as the 'Secret Six'. They would be composed of the men listed above that Brown had been meeting. They would be liberal Christians, or Transcendentalists, or connected to Transcendentalism. Note the affect that 'religion' is having in the war between the states.

to be continued:

Stranger
 

Marymog

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I haven't seen anything you have produced by a so-called Rev.Cordley. All you produced was something by a Maj. Banzof. If you have something from Cordley, present it. I don't see the problem here. I don't deny that the destruction and massacre at Lawrence did take place. So what is your complaint?

You keep claiming that in Ch 4 you have developed a time line that according to it, McCorkle couldn't have been there. But that is not true. Ch. 4 begins in 1859 with the hanging of John Brown. (p.53) Then on (p.56) the date 1861 is given as the start of the war and Quantrill had 6 men with him at that time. It was after that when McCorkle tells of his joining Quantrill. (p. 57) In 1862 McCorkle was with Quantrill in the raid on Independence which occurred in Aug. of 1862. So, sometime between 1861 and 1862, he joined Quantrill.

Yankees called Southernors lots of things. And still do. When they killed the citizens, it is called total war. When Quantrill killed citizens, he is a psychopathic killer. And you speak of rose colored glasses.

Stranger
Lol.....I don't have a complaint. I am simply responding to your post's. YOU are the one who started this thread to school me about Quantrill and pointed out how you thought I regurgitated a distorted view of Quantrill. Instead I schooled you.

In your original post you started it with a complaint about me and you quoted my statement: "I disapprove of respecting a man who has been called one of the psychopathic killers in America...and ordered/participated in the burning, looting and killing of the citizens of Lawrence Kansas"

Nothing....I repeat NOTHING....you have written has changed my mind. It is concerning to me how you have turned this from YOU being the complainant to me being the complainant.

I taught you about an eyewitness account of the Lawrence Massacre that was written within days of that horrible event. That eyewitness account included MULTIPLE eyewitness statements. I taught you about the historical record of the Tate House ambush that contradicts what is written in McCorkles book.

If you are unable to use a simple search engine (google, bing, internet explorer etc) to find out what Cordley wrote then get someone in your home to teach you how to use a search engine. If you have no one in your home here is the best I can do to help you: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...733A0A8C518938650820733A0A8C5189&&FORM=VRDGAR

I know what war is. I have read the historical records and personal letters of the brave men who have fought in them. If you don't understand what "there were bad men on both sides" means then I can't help you. You keep defending the actions of a BAD MAN by pointing to the actions of other bad men. I haven't defended the actions of any bad man....north or south....you have. Enough said. ;)

Mary
 

Marymog

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(continued from post #1) This from Flora Stevens:

"There were nine of these girls in the prison at 1409 Grand Avenue, when it fell. One of these was Josephine Anderson. Her two sister, Mollie, aged sixteen,and Janie, ten years old,were also prisoners with her,and it was these three especially that the Union soldiers wanted to kill because they were sisters of Bill Anderson, the guerrila....When the soldiers heard that Bill Anderson's sisters were in their power,they determined to kill them. The first inkling of the plot was when Mrs. B.F. Duke,...heard some of the soldiers who were staying at her house speak of the progress they were making in tearing down a wall. Mrs. Duke was a cousin of Bill Anderson, but the soldiers did not know it and told her of the scheme, and how they had removed a large section of the foundation wall of the woman's prison.....

"...The building did not fall the first day, so more of the wall was removed and it was at this time that Mrs. Duke learned of it. She was beside herself with rage and ordered all the soldiers from the house With a number of friends she hurried to the military headquarters and begged that the girls be taken from the building before they were killed. Their pleadings were in vain and an hour later the building fell...The guard, evidently repenting at the last moment, carried...two girls to safety.

"Janie Anderson,who was the youngest, tried to escape through a window, but a twelve pound ball that had been chained to her ankle held her back and both her legs were broken. The other girls went down with the ruins. There were groans and screams for a long time, and Josephine Anderson could be heard calling for someone to take the bricks off her head. Finally her cries ceased."

Quotes now are from Quantrill's scout McCorkle.

"This foul murder was the direct cause of the famous raid on Lawrence, Kansas. We could stand no more. Imagine, if you can, my feelings. A loved sister foully murdered and the widow of a dead brother seriously hurt by a set of men to whom the name of assassins, murderers and cutthroats would be a compliment. People abuse us, but, my God, did we not have enough to make us desperate and thirst for revenge? We tried to fight like soldiers but were declared outlaws, hunted under a black flag and murdered like beasts. The homes of our friends burned, our aged sires, who dared sympathize with us had been either hung or shot in the presence of their famalies and all their furniture and provisions loaded in wagons and with our live stock taken to the state of Kansas.

"...And now our innocent and beautiful girls had been murdered in a most foul, brutal, savage and damnable manner. We were determined to have revenge, and so Colonel Quantrill and Captain Anderson planned a raid on Lawrence, Kansas the home of the leaders, Jim Lane and Jennison."

Stranger
I know this is a waste if time but I wonder if you would take the time to read and quote from this book?

The Devil Knows How To Ride: The True Story Of William Clarke Quantril And His Confederate Raiders by Edward Leslie

Mary