Lessons for historical Mary

[Stranger]

Now order #(11) was law. Here are some quotes from the same book I have been using,(The Devil Knows How To Ride) by Edward E. Leslie.

"As for Order No. 11, hardly had it been issued than the editor of the St. Louis Missouri Republican thunderously pronounced it 'inhuman, unmanly, barbarous." p. (259)

"General Frank Blair, home on leave from Sherman's army...told a St. Louis crowd that Ewing was responsible for failing to thwart 'that hellish and diabolical scheme of Quantrell to destroy the people of Lawrence.' Ewing had become so 'excited and unmanned by his mistake that he sought to cover it up by condemning 'one entire slice of the state of Missouri, thirty-five miles deep, to devastation, rapine and plunder. It is the subterfuge of an imbecile." p. (259)

"I can affirm, from painful personal observation, that the sufferings of the unfortunate victims were in many instances such as should have elicited sympathy even from hearts of stones, wrote George Caleb Bingham in 1877." p. (261)

"Bare-footed and bare-headed women and children, stripped of every article of clothing except a scant covering for their bodies, were exposed to the heat of an August sun and compelled to struggle through the dust on foot. All their means of transportation had been seized by their spoilers, except an occasional dilapidated cart, or an old and superannuated horse, which were necessarily appropriated to the use of the aged and infirm." p. (261)

"It is well-known that men were shot down in the very act of obeying the order, and their wagons and effects seized by their murderers." p.(261)

"...Colonel Bazel Lazear, who had unhestiatingly shot captured bushwhackers, was appalled. 'It is heartsickening to see what I have seen' he wrote his wife. A desolated country and women and children, some of them all most naked. Some on foot and some in old wagons. Oh God." p.(261-262)

"Enforcement was assigned to militia units...Redleg Bands and Kansas civilians quickly joined in, looting and burning with undisguised glee." p.(262)

"They swooped down on farmhouses, stealing money, jewelry, and livestock from the occupants, then ignited the buildings." p. (262)

"Since many of the young men were away serving in the Union or Confederate army or had joined guerrilla bands, those who were shot down tended to be harmless old men or mature upright citizens, valued members of their communities: physicians, judges, merchants, ministers, and missionaries." p. (262)

"Redlegs struck the John Cave farm, which was near Lone Jack. Cave and some other menfolk were loading wagons, intending to leave the area in the morning. Cave's daughter, Matilda Ann, watched the men being led away: In addition to Cave there were two of her uncles, William and David Hunter; a cousin, Andy Owsley; and two neighbors, Cal Tate and Ben Potter. The Redlegs marched them only a short distance, then shot them....The heartsick survivors then set out on their sad journey." p. (262)

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

The posts were very specific. The problem is you never even knew of a 'secret six'. Yet you are some so called 'teacher of history'. You either didn't read them or they are so over whelming to you that you must plead this generalization. You are correct in that you are not reading correctly.

Do you have the book I quoted from? I do. Perhaps you should buy it. I bought the one you recommended and found it quite useful. I think you would find mine the same. But of course, it may cause you great consternation seeing how you have taught just the opposite to so many for so many years.

Hurts doesn't it. To know you have spent a life time teaching a lie. What excuse will you have before God for all the lies you have taught?

Stranger

Hi Stranger,

Not sure why you continue to snipe at me. I asked a simple question so that I can have a conversation with you about the subject matter you have brought forth. To suggest I never knew about the "Secret Six" would be a delusion on your part.

Historically the event is one small event in a very large picture. I still don't know what you want me to say about it that is why I asked you: Can you be more specific in your request for my input?


I still don't know what you want from me. I read all your references from the book but I am not sure what you think I am supposed to think of it. I will give it one more try by re-reading everything and see if I can wrap my head around it.

If you could summarize your thoughts and what you expect me to comment on that would be helpful.

Historical Mary

 

[Marymog]

I am not on one at present. And, I don't believe I have ever been. When I do use the name 'Quantrill' it is because I have respect for the man and his contribution to the 'Cause'. I have used the name on several Christian forums in the past.

I was just reading through all 6 pages and noticed we never got around to discussing the Secret Six that I described and the Northern religion. I think this would be important since you feel the North won because they were godly and the South was ungodly.

See posts. (29, 38, 43,44,45) If you would rather discuss some other related topic about Quantrill, that would be fine also.

Stranger

OK.... over the last couple of days and this morning I have re-familiarized myself with all those post.

Would it be best for our conversation if I responded to post #29, 38, 43,44,45 separately? Or would you like me to summarize my response to all of them in one big post?

Patient Mary

 

[Stranger]

Continued quotes concerning order #(11).

"Another woman had two cows hitched to a wagon;...inside the wagon was a very sick child....the got out with her sick babe in her arms and seated herself under the friendly shade of a tree. It was apparent to all that the child was dying....her husband had been killed, she was forced to leave her home, driven out into the cold world with her children....The crowd surged on, women and children dragging their weary limbs through the dust and heat." p. (263)

"By November all the Twymans were terribly homesick and decided to to move to Missouri City, Clay County, just across the river from our home....The weather was bad-near constant snow and sleet-and no one would give them shelter at night; they tried to rent rooms, even out buildings, and were turned away. They managed to reach Missouri City, but then the eldest daughter, Julia, sixteen years old, sickened and died. The harships we had to endure under Order No. 11 were too much for one of her delicate nature, Mrs. Frances Twyman wrote in 1913. She was my only daughter. She was too pure for this earth." p. (263)

"Twenty -five-year old Laura Harris, who lived near Westport, had a husband in the Confederate army. After his discharge, he was persecuted by Unionists until he slipped away and joined Quantrill." p. (263)

"Into my wagon I loaded one hoarded feather bed, two pairs of pillows and an old trunk....the trunk contained a few bare necessities in the way of cooking utensils etc. She put her own small son in the wagon, along with two neighbors, eighty-four-year-old Buckner Muir and his blind son, Sam, who was fifty-six. She hitched up a team of horses and joined a column of sixty-one women and children headed for Texas. Mrs. James Cabness, who as a little girl had been in the same column, remembered that Everday or two Yankee soldiers would unload our wagons in search of something to steal. They said they were hunting firearms." p. (264)

"Not far from Clinton,Missouri, which was southwest of Sedalia, they encountered three hundred redlegs. Despite the fact that they were now in Henry County and were therefore outside the area affected by Order No. 11, the Kansans stole all the stock but a single team of horses. They also scattered on the ground whatever food they decided they did not want." p. (264)

These stories characterize thousands of more just like them for those under order #(11). You never hear of it. It is not the story that the government wants you to hear. These are the actions of those godly people that Marymog indicated was why the north won the war. These are the types of people that Quantrill and the Confederacy was fighting.

So, weep for the black slave who was kept and fed and housed by the Southernor. Weep for the Indians who had their trail of tears to the reservation. Weep for the Japenese who were sent to prison camps by the government at the outbreak of WWII. But forget about the Southern white man under Order #(11). Just continue to tear down his monuments and flags.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

OK.... over the last couple of days and this morning I have re-familiarized myself with all those post.

Would it be best for our conversation if I responded to post #29, 38, 43,44,45 separately? Or would you like me to summarize my response to all of them in one big post?

Patient Mary

So, have you come to a better understanding of the Secret Six and Transcendentalism? Your comment before, that you failed to see any connection, was strange. I referenced the book. Do you have it?

As there is connection with the Secret Six and John Brown, then it is also linked to Transcendentalism and the liberal social christianity that pervaded the north.

Do you see the north's attitude toward John Brown, the murderer and terrorist?

This is the so called godly north you described earlier.

If you think I misrepresented anything in the posts given, by all means, show me.

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

So, have you come to a better understanding of the Secret Six and Transcendentalism? Your comment before, that you failed to see any connection, was strange. I referenced the book. Do you have it?

As there is connection with the Secret Six and John Brown, then it is also linked to Transcendentalism and the liberal social christianity that pervaded the north.

Do you see the north's attitude toward John Brown, the murderer and terrorist?

This is the so called godly north you described earlier.

If you think I misrepresented anything in the posts given, by all means, show me.

Stranger

Would it be best for our conversation if I responded to post #29, 38, 43,44,45 separately? Or would you like me to summarize my response to all of them in one big post?

 

[Stranger]

Would it be best for our conversation if I responded to post #29, 38, 43,44,45 separately? Or would you like me to summarize my response to all of them in one big post?

You better do them separately. Did you check my references? Do you have the book or access to it?

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

To Marymog....another lesson

In posts #12-14, the subject of religion was brought up in the North and South. I had stated the the 'Christianity' of the North had become a social christianity and Jesus was just a social messiah. A good man. A ghandi of sorts. I think it is important to pursue this further. Perhaps some of the yankee idols can be thrown down. Can you sing "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"?

I will use the book (John Brown Abolitionist, David Reynolds, Vintage Books, 2006). You should like it as it is pro-yankee. I like it because, though I disagree with his conclusions, I believe he is honest in his presentation of facts. You probably ask what does John Brown have to do with the religion of the north? Well, it reveals a lot, as I think you will see. This will take more than a day for me to present, but , who knows when you will be back anyway.

We go back to May 24-25th, 1856. This is the day of the Pottawatomie murders by John Brown and his group. Remember, the War between the States would not start until 1861. All of this was leading up to it.

"Around ten o'clock at night on Saturday, May 24, the men seized their weapons and walked a mile north...They went first to the cabin of one of the settlers...to draw him out. The muzzle of a rifle poked at them through a chink, and they backed off. They went on to the nearby home of James Doyle and his family.

"In the cabin James Doyle, his wife, Mahala, and their six children lay asleep. A sharp rap on the door drew Doyle out of bed....As soon as Doyle opened the door...five armed men barged into the house. The leader, John Brown...announced they were from the Northern Army and were taking Doyle prisoner...Mahala Doyle, bursting into tears....

"She watched in horror as the invaders led him and her two oldest sons,...out into the night. She begged them to spare her sixteen-year-old son, John, and they did...As terrified as she and the young children were, they could not have imagined the atrocity that was about to happen.

"Brown's band led the three captives two hundred yards up the road that led into the woods. Owen and Salmon fell on them, hacking away with the heavy swords. In the melee, horrible wounds were inflicted. Drury Doyle's fingers and arms, raised to fen off blows, were severed, and his head and chest were gashed. His brother was stabbed through the head, jaw, and side, and the father was wounded in the breast. Although John Brown did not participate in the attack, he fired a single shot into the head of the senseless James Doyle to make sure of death.

"The group proceeded half a mile to the cabin of Allen Wilkinson...His wife roused him when she heard the dog barking....He asked the callers who they were. The reply was a shouted request for directions...When he opened the door, he found himself surrounded by four men...He was asked curtly to explain his position on slavery...he indicated that he opposed the Free State party, one of them declared, 'you are our prisoner'.....

"A hundred and fifty yards from the cabin Wilkinson met the same fate as the Doyles. Henry Thompson and Weiner, possibly with the help of one of the younger Browns, slashed him to death, stabbing him in the head and side. They heaved his body int dead brush.

The final victim, William Sherman, was staying at the home of a proslavery friend, James Harris,....Brown's party waded across the creek toward Harris's cabin....midnight had passed. The pious John Brown, once so careful about observing the Sabbath that he accepted no visitors on Sunday, was now prepared to kill on that day.

"When Brown and his party learned that Dutch Henry, their main target, was out on the prairie, they decided upon his brother Dutch Bill instead. They led Sherman to the edge of the creek, where Brown's two youngest sons, along with Weiner and Thompson, felled him....In the meantime, Brown and his followers hid out in the wilderness, resurfacing occasionally to battle proslavery forces. By the end of September, he had left Kansas for the East to raise funds for his war against slavery. " (p. 171-174)

to be continued.

Stranger

I think your assesment that "the 'Christianity' of the North had become a social Christianity and Jesus was just a social messiah.... A good man....A ghandi of sorts is a generalization of a FEW northerners.

 

[Marymog]

continued from post #29

John Brown was now under indictment by the U.S. government for the Pottawatomie murders. And he was caught as he left Kansas and went into Nebraska. "Although under indictment for the Pottawatomie killings, Brown thought he could slip out of Kansas without being noticed. He was wrong....He left Kansas in a teamster's wagon...crossing over into Nebraska before U.S. troops caught him." (Reynolds, p. 207)

But even though Brown was caught, he remained a free man in the free states of the North. And was allowed to solicit for money for his war. "...Brown, shivering with ague and fever, reached Tabor, Iowa. This frontier town, which had been founded in 1848 by Abolitionists from Ohio, was a western station on the Underground Railroad. Welcomed as a guest in the home of the genial Quaker Jonas Jones, Brown was glad to be among lik-minded folk again....He wanted Tabor to be the training base for a volunteer army of anti-slavery warriors. " (p. 207)

"After a week in Tabor, Brown...felt strong enough to travel to Chicago. From there he went to Ohio,where Congressman Joshua Giddings gave him a letter of introduction to potential funders. Continuing east Brown stopped at Peterboro, New York, to consult with the antislavery philanthropist Gerrit Smith.

"....January 1857 found Brown in Boston, where he looked up Franklin B. Sanborn, the secretary of the Massachusetts State Kansas Committe. When Brown arrived at Sanborn's office...he unwittingly opened the door not only to Harpers Ferry but also to his future fame. Through Sanborn he gained access to arms and money for Kansas and later, for Harpers Ferry.....Excited, Sanborn wrote an Abolitionist friend, the Worcester minister Thomas Wentworth Higginson, urging him to come to Boston to meet Brown....He took so strongly to Brown that he soon became his most radical supporter.

"Sanborn also introduced Brown to another antislavery minister,Theodore Parker. The learned Parker had gained notoriety as a clergyman so liberal that he was forced to preach in the Boston Music Hall instead of in a church. Even though his religious views were poles apart from those of the Calvinistic Brown, the two met on the common ground of antislavery....He was thrilled to meet the militant Brown, whom he invited to a Sunday reception at his home.

"At the reception Brown met William Lloyd Garrison...longtime pacifist....He was more in tune with three other Boston Abolitionists he met that month: Amos A. Lawrence, Dr.Samuel Gridley Howe, and George Luther Stearns. The wealthy Lawrence, after whom Lawrence, Kansas was named, was a chief donor to Eli Thayer's New England Emigrant Aid Society. He enjoyed hearing firsthand about the Territory's antislavery wars when Brown visited him...he offered to give $1,000 a year to Brown's indigent family and the same amount annually to the antislavery cause in Kansas until freedom was ensured there." (p. 208-209)

Note here the freedom that the Northern people have allowed Brown to have and to help to fund his terrorism upon the Southern people. All the while knowing he was a murderer. Yet he is embraced. Note also the liberal Christian preachers involved in supporting him. But it would not just be liberal Christianity, but the new cult of 'Transcendentalism'. "Movements such as spiritualism, free love, Fourierism, Transcendentalism, and women's rights had,in fact sprouted prolifically in the antebellum North,a society caught in the throes of reform and creative ferment." (p. 15)

The big money men, the backers of John Brown's war would be known as the 'Secret Six'. They would be composed of the men listed above that Brown had been meeting. They would be liberal Christians, or Transcendentalists, or connected to Transcendentalism. Note the affect that 'religion' is having in the war between the states.

to be continued:

Stranger

Quotes from a book. No comments from you for me to reply to! IMO

 

[Marymog]

continued from post #38

The 'Secret Six' directly supported John Brown through money, moral support, and preaching his abolitionist cause that led to the Harpers Ferry terrorist attack. Here are their names.

1.) George Luthor Sterns
2.) Gerrit Smith
3.) Thomas Wentworth Higginson
4.) Samuel Gridley Howe
5.) Theodore Parker
6.) Franklin B. Sanborn

After the attack on Harpers Ferry most fled the country fearing being arrested as accomplices, as they should have been. Their names became known as letters from them to John Brown were found among Browns stuff. And of course the North acted outraged at the attack. But were they? Suffice it to say at this point that none of them were brought to justice. And all were received well by the North when the war started. But at this point I want to address their link to Transcendentalism.

Again, the quotes I give come from (John Brown Abolitionist, David S. Reynolds)

"Not long after Brown ordered the pikes, Frank Sanborn took him to Concord, the home of Transcendentalism. No one shaped the John Brown image more strongly than did the Transcendentalists, the nation's leading intellectuals. Their admiration of him laid the basis for the later widespread deification of him in the North." (p. 214-215)

"The relationship between this influential group and John Brown is an untold story in Civil War history. For a long time historians maintained that the Transcendentalists had little connection with antislavery reform and did not factor in the background of the war.....Actually, had the Transcendentalists not sanctified the arch-Abolitionist John Brown, he might have very well remained an obscure, tangential figure--a forgettable oddball. And had that happened, the suddenly intense polarization between the North and the South that followed Harpers Ferry might not have occurred. Frank Sanborn ensured John Brown's fame by bringing him into the Transcendentalist circle that immediately welcomed him and eventually magnified him to Christ-like proportions. " (p. 215)

"The Brown backers Sanborn organized, later known as the Secret Six, had strong links to Transcendentalism. The three most radical members of the group--Sanborn himself, Thomas Wentworth Higginson, and Theodore Parker--were devout followers of the Concord philosphy. A fourth, George Stearns, was a good friend of Emerson and his crowd. A fifth, Samuel Gridley Howe, was on the fringes of the Concord circle. Of the six, only the Peterboro philanthropist Gerrit Smith was outside the Transcendentalist set." (p. 215)

"Since the Harpers Ferry raid would not have come off without the support of the Secret Six, four of whom were connected to Transcendentalism, and since Transcendentalists would later take the lead in establishing Brown's reputation, the Concord philosophy must be recognized as a force behind the events that led to the Civil War." (p. 215)

to be continued:

Stranger

More quotes from a book and one persons opinion of history. Not much for me to comment on here.

 

[Marymog]

continued from post #45

After the Harpers Ferry raid and Brown was being tried, many tried to separate themselves from Brown at the beginning. But the Transcendentalists would began their work of making Brown a Christ-like figure. And it would be their make over that would catch like fire among the North.

Quotes are from (John Brown Abolitionist, David S. Reynolds)

"Joshua Giddings, the Ohio Republican who had met Brown on a number of occasions, wanted to publicize the fact that the Virginia plan never came up during these meetings....Salmon P. Chase, the Republican governor of Ohio, assumed an attitude of condescending pity....He conceded that he had once donated money toward Brown's Kansas effort, but that was his only tie to Brown....Pity also characterized the response of Henry Ward Beecher, the period's leading antislavery preacher....I disapprove of his mad and feeble schemes."

"Given this avalanche of attacks on John Brown--from Democrats, from Southerners, and from Republicans--where did the overwhelming approval that the North later showered on Brown come from? Who kept alive his reputation long enough for sympathy to take root? Once more we must look to the Concord-Boston network of Brown supporters affiliated with Transcendentalism. " (p. 363)

"Emerson also wanted Brown to be rescued....But Emerson implemented an even more important form of rescue: a metaphorical rescue, one that plucked Brown from the obloquy that assaulted him from all sides." (p. 363)

"By the late 185O's, Emerson was widely regarded as America's leading intellectual....When Emerson spoke, America listened." (p. 364-365)

"...Emerson's startling description of John Brown: 'That new saint, than whom none purer or more brave was ever led by love of men into conflict and death,--the new saint awaiting his martyrdom, and who, if he shall suffer, will make the gallows glorious like the cross." (p. 366)

Then after the hanging of John Brown...

"At a service held in Concord, Massachusetts, on the day of John Brown's hanging, Henry David Thoreau declared that Brown embodied 'transcendent moral greatness. Thoreau rhapsodized, 'Almost any noble verse may be read, either as his elegy or his eulogy'; Brown was 'one of those rare cases of heroes and martyrs for which the ritual of no church has provided." (p. 402)

"Ten days later Senator Andrew Johnson of Tennessee expressed a very different sentiment in a speech before the U.S. Senate as it prepared to investigate the Harpers Ferry raid. Johnson announced, 'I want these modern fanatics who have adopted John Brown as their Christ and their cross, to see what their Christ is....This old man Brown was nothing more than a murderer, a robber,a thief, and a traitor'." (p.402)

"For Thoreau, speaking at a memorial service he had organized with Emerson and Alcott, Brown was on the level of Christ and other exalted beings....Thoreau read verses from Andrew Marvell and Aytoun's 'Lays of the Scottish Cavaliers.' Alcott read Plato and an ode he had written for the occasion. Emerson read Brown's speech to the Virginia court and selections from his prison letters. Others read statements made by Solomon and Jesus Christ. " (p.402)

"For Andrew Johnson, comparison's between John Brown and Jesus--or anyone else good, for that matter --were absurd and dangerous....the future vice president of the United States launched a diatribe against Brown, whose true colors, he argued, were revealed at Pottawatomie in May 1856..." (p.402-403)

"One important convert to his (Brown's) side was Garrison (William Lloyd Garrison). As a committed pacifist who had once quarreled sharply with Brown, Garrison was not easy to win over...In the first few weeks after the raid, most of the pieces he ran in his paper were harsh indictments reprinted from other papers,....Garrison himself called the raid a 'well-intended but sadly misguided effort,' a 'wild and futile' enterprise. Despite his qualms over tactics, Garrison was a leading promoter of Brown's personal qualities." (p.404)

The North, due to its moving away from Bible believing Christianity, would embrace this Christ-like Brown. See how much religion played a role in that war?

Stranger

History does NOT show that the North moved away from Bible believing Christianity and embraced a Christ like Brown. That is a microcosm of the era.

 

[Stranger]

I think your assesment that "the 'Christianity' of the North had become a social Christianity and Jesus was just a social messiah.... A good man....A ghandi of sorts is a generalization of a FEW northerners.

Well, you think wrong. What do you base it on? And what did I base what I said on?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Quotes from a book. No comments from you for me to reply to! IMO

In other words, you have no defense.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

More quotes from a book and one persons opinion of history. Not much for me to comment on here.

Yet you recommended to me a book that you believed supported your argument. Now when I give you a book, it is just another's opinion. Yet the opinion is supported by historical facts. What a hypocrite you are Marymog.

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

In other words, you have no defense.

Stranger

You want ME to defend a book that YOU quoted??? Hmmmmm......

 

[Stranger]

History does NOT show that the North moved away from Bible believing Christianity and embraced a Christ like Brown. That is a microcosm of the era.

I just showed your that history did. What now? Hurts doesn't it? To know you have taught a lie and cannot undo it.

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

Yet you recommended to me a book that you believed supported your argument. Now when I give you a book, it is just another's opinion. Yet the opinion is supported by historical facts. What a hypocrite you are Marymog.

Stranger

I recommended a book I was familiar with soooooo it has nothing to do with supporting my argument....

 

[Marymog]

I just showed your that history did. What now? Hurts doesn't it? To know you have taught a lie and cannot undo it.

Stranger

Nope, no hurt here. You don't know what I taught sooooo how can you say I taught a lie???

Wait a minute....were you one of my students???

 

[Stranger]

You want ME to defend a book that YOU quoted??? Hmmmmm......

No. I want you to recognize what the book said. If you can disprove it, go ahead. Remember you gave me a book to read first. Now you are upset when the book you recommended doesn't say what you were hoping. Proves you never read the book. I did read the book. You are such a hypocrite Mary.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I recommended a book I was familiar with soooooo it has nothing to do with supporting my argument....

That's a lie. If you were familiar with it you wouldn't act so stupid about things the book said. You never read the book and you know it. You get your cliff notes off the internet somewhere and add your bs to it. Despicable.

Stranger