Lessons for historical Mary

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Marymog

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If you didn't ignore it then you realize that the yankees are responsible for killing Quantrill's men showing no quarter before Quanrill did. Cause and affect Mary. But of course you just blame Quantrill. He is the murderer. Not the yankees.

Oh please Mary, you belittle Quantrill from the start. Don't try and say you don't now.

There is no institution of slavery today. Why, are you looking for one?

Quantrill alias Stranger
I didn't ignore it. I CLEARLY addressed it. See if you can find it.

Since you can't quote any statement from me where I belittled him we should move on.

Operation Underground Railroad

Mary
 

Marymog

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Yes Quantrill was known to obey the Constitution. Funny how the victors of the war are the ones who disobeyed the Constitution but are now the 'good guys'. The ones who obeyed, as Quantrill did, are now the bad guys. Seems there is Scripture concerning that somewhere.

There are no underground slaves today. Unless you're talking to the NAACP, then by all means all Africans in this country are still slaves. Pay attention Mary, if you are asking me a question about the underground railroad in the 1860's, then I have to answer in accordance to that time. And no I wouldn't have freed a single one. They needed to be returned back to their masters.

After the 13th amendment there were no slaves to free, contrary to what the NAACP likes to present the black man as.

Why so curious Mary?

Quantrill, alias Stranger
Are you willing to free these slaves??

The Exodus Road - Human Trafficking - Your invitation to take action


BTW....Where have you been. Is everything ok?

Mary

 

Stranger

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I didn't ignore it. I CLEARLY addressed it. See if you can find it.

Since you can't quote any statement from me where I belittled him we should move on.

Operation Underground Railroad

Mary

As usual Mary, you want me to do your work. That's fine.

You belittle Quantrill from the start Mary. I am disappointed in your failure to own up to this. I question your integrity.

Quantrill
 

Marymog

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Ive been busy on another forum. Everything is fine.

Stranger
Here I am...

What civil war forum are you on? I only presume you are on one since the name you chose would go with a civil war forum.

I am sincerely interested in browsing thru it.

I can't believe it's been over 6 months since we chatted on this topic...
 

Stranger

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Here I am...

What civil war forum are you on? I only presume you are on one since the name you chose would go with a civil war forum.

I am sincerely interested in browsing thru it.

I can't believe it's been over 6 months since we chatted on this topic...

I am not on one at present. And, I don't believe I have ever been. When I do use the name 'Quantrill' it is because I have respect for the man and his contribution to the 'Cause'. I have used the name on several Christian forums in the past.

I was just reading through all 6 pages and noticed we never got around to discussing the Secret Six that I described and the Northern religion. I think this would be important since you feel the North won because they were godly and the South was ungodly.

See posts. (29, 38, 43,44,45) If you would rather discuss some other related topic about Quantrill, that would be fine also.

Stranger
 

Marymog

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I am not on one at present. And, I don't believe I have ever been. When I do use the name 'Quantrill' it is because I have respect for the man and his contribution to the 'Cause'. I have used the name on several Christian forums in the past.

I was just reading through all 6 pages and noticed we never got around to discussing the Secret Six that I described and the Northern religion. I think this would be important since you feel the North won because they were godly and the South was ungodly.

See posts. (29, 38, 43,44,45) If you would rather discuss some other related topic about Quantrill, that would be fine also.

Stranger
Thank you.

That was a lot of reading. To be honest with you I...and I always am......I hadn't read all those post before.

Sooooo you want me to acknowledge how much religion played in the Civil War?
 

Stranger

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Thank you.

That was a lot of reading. To be honest with you I...and I always am......I hadn't read all those post before.

Sooooo you want me to acknowledge how much religion played in the Civil War?

I would just like you to consider what was said. I know it was a lot. If you would check up on the references I gave, I would like you to see what the South was really facing.

I don't have much more time this evening but would like your input concerning the 'Secret Six' and their role with John Brown, and Transcendentalism, and the North's reception of these.

See you tomorrow, or when you can get back.

Stranger
 

aspen

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This is an interesting conversation. I am motivated to learn more civil war history - I admit, I have a lot to learn in this area.
 

Stranger

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This is an interesting conversation. I am motivated to learn more civil war history - I admit, I have a lot to learn in this area.

Plenty has already been said. What did you learn? Anything?

Stranger
 

Stranger

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While waiting on Marymog to finish her evaluation as laid out in post # (110), the next subject to discuss will be "Order #11". I'm sure everyone is familiar with it and so would like to make some comments before I proceed. Please, don't hold back.

Stranger
 

aspen

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Plenty has already been said. What did you learn? Anything?

Stranger

Yes. I have read the thread. Got some good information from both of you so I can research it.
 

Stranger

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People are always bemoaning the 'trail of tears' when the U.S ran the Indians off their land. Or when they rounded up the Japenese citizens and sent them to camps in WWII. Such sympathy is never given the Southern white people.

The main text I am using here is the book (The Devil Knows How To Ride, Edward E. Leslie, Da Capo, 1998). It was recommended by Marymog. It is not pro-South by any means. And the authors own bias can be seen throughout the book. But I do think he tries to rise above it and at least presents the facts. In this book, Chapter 10 covers Order #11.

For some context it is important to know there is a difference in what was called 'Jayhawker, Redleg, Bushwhacker'. Leslie quotes a paper out of Illinois to define these on p. (29). "A Jayhawker is a Unionist who professes to rob, burn out, and murder only rebels in arms against the government. A Redleg is a Jayhawker originally distinguished by the uniform of red leggings. A Redleg, however, is regarded as more purely an indiscriminate thief and murderer than the Jayhawker or Bushwhacker. A Bushwhacker is a rebel Jayhawker, or a rebel who bands with others for the purpose of preying upon the lives and property of Union citizens."

Jim Lane was a Jayhawker, Redleg. Quantrill and his men would be known as Bushwhackers or guerillas. Jim Lane was representative of the abolitionist and yankees, though he really didn't care about the negro one way or the other. Quantrill and his men represented the South and the pro-slavery people.

Jim Lane was from Indiana and when coming to the Kansas territory was quoted as saying, "I would as leave sell a negro as a mule". He became known as the 'Grim Chieftain of Kansas'. p.(11)

"Being a voracious ladies man, Lane would be the subject of not a few rumors of sexual impropriety. Despite his attitude toward slavery, he would opportunistically switch sides, joining the new Free State party and becoming an important free-soil advocate. Beginning in 1856, he led a series of brutal pillage-and-burn raids in eastern Kansas and western Missouri. He freed numerous slaves, believing that this was the quickest way to destroy the South, but, ironically, he advocated the passage of 'Black laws' that would deny Kansas residency to all Negroes." p (11-12)

"In late June 1861, Lincoln appointed Lane a brigadier general of volunteers. This may seem surprising given Lane's character, but Lincoln was in Lane's debt." p. (12)

As you can see, there was much fighting already prior to what is known as the 'Civil War'. When the war began in 1861 you now have Lane appointed by Lincoln. But Lane was still nothing but a Jayhawker Redleg. But now he has Lincoln supporting him. All of this is important to know.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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The fighting in Kansas and Missouri before the War simply became part of the War once it started. The mode of fighting in Kansas and Missouri did not change. It remained vicious and without mercy. Jim Lane the yankee was merciless towards the Southern people, and now had the backing of the Federal govt. and Lincoln. So, now, Quantrill and his men are the outlaws because Jim Lane is supported by the yankees.

Thomas Ewing came to Kansas to get rich in making land deals. He would later become chief justice of Kansas Supreme Court. p. (175) He too, like Lane was a Jayhawker Redleg and organized a company of men. p. (29) In 1861 he became a senator of Kansas when Kansas was made a free state. p. (79)

In 1862 Ewing became a recruiting agent for Lanes 11th Regiment. He then resigned his position as a Justice and became the Regiment Colonel. p. (175) So you see these are now legal yankee bushwhackers. Their hatred of the Southern people knew no bounds. When Lane made Ewing Regiment Colonel the Governor, Charles Robinson, refused to give Ewing the commission. So Lane went to Lincoln and obtained it by him. p. (175)

After the murder of the women and girls in the yankee prison, see posts #(1,2), Ewing issued Order #10. This order removed all Southern people who were known to help Quantrill and his men. p. (198-199) They were banished from the state of Missouri. The murder of the Southern women and this order simply infuriated Quantrill and his men. Because Lawrence Kansas was the home of yankee supporters and Jim Lane, Quantrill and his men attacked it and burnt it and killed as many men as they could. Lane and Ewing tried to chase and capture them but could not.

"There was nothing more Ewing could do that night--except rendezvous with Jim Lane. The two men faced off in the cabin. Lane was furious, absolutely wild. He blamed the Lawrence massacre on Ewing's 'milk-and-water administration'. He swore to go to Washington and have Ewing removed...." p. (257)

Ewing knew Lane had Lincoln's ear. And Ewing wanted to have a political carreer in Kansas once the war was over. p. (257) So, he immediately created Order #11 and told Lane this is what he would do. It was similar to Order #10. It was the removal of the Southern people from all of three counties and part of another in Western Missouri. All their possessions would be confiscated and kept or destroyed. p. (258)

"Lane felt compelled to threaten Ewing one more time. 'You are a dead dog, if you fail to issue that order,' he told him, then rode away. Three days later, on August 25, newpapers published Ewing's General Order No. 11." p. (258)

Stranger
 

Marymog

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How can war be civil? Why can we only come together when it is to hate others?
LOL...I see what your saying but civil has two different meanings :rolleyes:

Civil war: conflict between citizens of the same country
civil: courteous and polite
 

Marymog

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I would just like you to consider what was said. I know it was a lot. If you would check up on the references I gave, I would like you to see what the South was really facing.

I don't have much more time this evening but would like your input concerning the 'Secret Six' and their role with John Brown, and Transcendentalism, and the North's reception of these.

See you tomorrow, or when you can get back.

Stranger
I fail to see what the Secret Six has to do with Transcendentalism. Maybe I am not reading your sentence correctly but it seems to me you are connecting the two since they are both mentioned in the same sentence.

Some in the North participated in that philosophical and social movement. I think your brush stroke is to large.

Can you be more specific in your request for my input?

Mary
 

Stranger

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I fail to see what the Secret Six has to do with Transcendentalism. Maybe I am not reading your sentence correctly but it seems to me you are connecting the two since they are both mentioned in the same sentence.

Some in the North participated in that philosophical and social movement. I think your brush stroke is to large.

Can you be more specific in your request for my input?

Mary

The posts were very specific. The problem is you never even knew of a 'secret six'. Yet you are some so called 'teacher of history'. You either didn't read them or they are so over whelming to you that you must plead this generalization. You are correct in that you are not reading correctly.

Do you have the book I quoted from? I do. Perhaps you should buy it. I bought the one you recommended and found it quite useful. I think you would find mine the same. But of course, it may cause you great consternation seeing how you have taught just the opposite to so many for so many years.

Hurts doesn't it. To know you have spent a life time teaching a lie. What excuse will you have before God for all the lies you have taught?

Stranger