Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

[LoveYeshua]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



Based on all of the above, and what else can be added to the OP that hasn't been added yet, how is it reasonable that Amil can be a valid view? Revelation, plus passages elsewhere outside of Revelation, reveal that it is the 42 month reign of the beast that precede the 2nd coming. Therefore, in order for Amil to be a valid position, the 42 month reign of the beast must occur during satan's little season. But how can it when Revelation 20:4 already reveals that the 42 month reign of thebeast precede satan's little season?

I did not have time to read all the posts of this thread but i find this topic interesting and i researched the texts and provide my opinions on the subject I wrote this as an article.


Revelation 20:4 stands as one of the most decisive texts in the entire eschatological discussion, because it does not merely describe a vision but establishes a sequence of events tied to historical action, persecution, death, resurrection, and reign. The verse identifies a specific group of people, explains the reason for their death, and places their vindication within a defined temporal framework. Any eschatological system must therefore account for all three elements without collapsing them into symbolism that overrides the text itself.

John writes that he saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. He then specifies who these individuals are: the souls of those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received the mark on their forehead or on their hand. These individuals, John says, lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The description is precise. Their refusal of beast worship and the mark precedes their death. Their death precedes their resurrection. Their resurrection precedes and inaugurates their reign with Christ.

This sequence immediately raises a necessary chronological question. At what point could people be martyred specifically for refusing to worship the beast, his image, and his mark? Three possible periods are often proposed: before the millennium, during the millennium, or after the millennium. The text itself allows only one of these.

A time before the millennium fully accounts for the conditions described. Revelation 13 depicts an active beast exercising global authority, demanding worship, enforcing an image, instituting a mark, and killing those who refuse compliance. The persecution is systemic, coercive, and universal in scope. Martyrdom for refusal is not incidental but central. Revelation 20:4 presupposes precisely this context. The martyrs are not generic believers; they are defined by their resistance to a specific regime and its religious-economic system.

A time during the millennium cannot account for this. Revelation 20:1–3 states plainly that Satan is bound for a thousand years so that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years are finished. Deception of the nations is the very mechanism by which the beast operates in Revelation 13. If Satan is bound, the infrastructure necessary for global deception, enforced worship, and mark-based allegiance does not exist. There is no text that suggests a parallel reign of the beast during Satan’s binding. Martyrdom for refusing the beast therefore cannot occur during the millennium.

A time after the millennium also fails. Revelation 20:7–9 describes Satan’s release after the thousand years. The deception that follows is brief and culminates almost immediately in divine judgment by fire from heaven. There is no extended reign, no rebuilding of a beast system, no institution of worship or a mark, and no prolonged persecution of the saints. The text does not permit inserting a second 42-month reign at this point.

The only coherent conclusion is that the martyrdom described in Revelation 20:4 occurs before the millennium begins.

This conclusion is reinforced by the relationship between Revelation 13 and Revelation 17. In Revelation 13:1, John sees the beast rising up out of the sea. In Revelation 17:8, the same beast is described as ascending out of the bottomless pit. In both cases, the verb used is anabainō, meaning “to ascend” or “to come up.” Revelation 17 interprets Revelation 13, clarifying the beast’s origin and status. The beast “was, and is not, and will ascend out of the abyss and go to destruction.” Ascension implies prior confinement. The beast is not reigning while imprisoned; it becomes active only upon release.

The “sea” imagery in Revelation 13 does not contradict this but complements it. Revelation 17:15 explicitly defines the waters as peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. The beast ascends from the abyss and emerges into the world of nations, bringing chaos, authority, and deception. There is no textual basis for identifying the sea as a benign symbol of human history during the church age while simultaneously identifying the abyss as a place of confinement. Revelation itself unites the imagery.

The political dimension of the beast’s reign further confirms its pre-millennial placement. Revelation 17:12–14 identifies the ten horns as ten kings who receive authority for a short time with the beast. These kings act in unity, give their power to the beast, and make war against the Lamb. Their reign is brief, intense, and coordinated. This aligns with the repeatedly stated duration of forty-two months, one thousand two hundred sixty days, or time, times, and half a time. These expressions describe the same limited period of dominion immediately preceding divine intervention.

This period cannot be distributed across the millennium or absorbed into Satan’s “little season” without doing violence to the text. Revelation 20:4 already places the martyrs before the thousand-year reign, while Revelation 20:7 places Satan’s release after it. The 42-month reign of the beast must therefore precede both the millennium and Satan’s final release.

Jesus’ own teaching confirms this structure. In Matthew 24, He places unparalleled tribulation before His return and states explicitly that His coming occurs immediately after that tribulation. He speaks of persecution, deception, and the killing of His followers as events that must happen first. Only afterward does He appear in glory. Revelation does not reinterpret Jesus; it expands His teaching in apocalyptic detail.

The difficulty for amillennialism is not a lack of symbolism in Revelation but a refusal to respect the internal chronology the book itself provides. Amillennialism requires the persecution of Revelation 13 to occur during a period when Satan is bound, or during a period that Revelation explicitly places after the thousand years. Neither option is textually sustainable. The result is an overlapping of events that Revelation consistently separates.

Revelation 20:4, read carefully and in context, does not describe the church age in general, nor does it describe symbolic victory detached from historical suffering. It describes a specific group of believers who resisted a specific enemy at a specific time and were rewarded with participation in a specific reign. Their faithfulness belongs to the final conflict before Christ’s return, not to an undefined spiritual struggle spread across centuries.

The text therefore leads to a clear conclusion. The reign of the beast occurs before the second coming. The martyrdom of the saints occurs before the millennium. The binding of Satan follows Christ’s return. The thousand-year reign follows the binding. Satan’s final release occurs only after that reign is complete. Any theological system that reverses or merges these events does so not because Revelation demands it, but because the system itself does.

Revelation does not invite the reader to flatten its chronology. It invites the reader to endure, to discern, and to trust that God’s judgments and promises unfold in the order He has revealed.

Blessings.

 

[David in NJ]

I suppose it depends on what one means by foundational. That the human race is sinful and that the Lord will return to ultimately judge for these things I agree is part of foundational truth. (As well as I believe the falling away is "as it was in the days of Noah" too....what should be a holy, separated and set apart church seated in heavenly places is mingling with the world.) But there is a lot of disagreement over certain details and aspects concerning the end.

There is further understanding that only comes with growth, and also the fact that there are different parts of the body and different people may have different parts of the truth concerning these things, since we only know in part. I don't understand why people take it so personally and resort to personal insults because others don't see everything their way when it comes to things that are hard to be understood. I don't consider that any of us have arrived at a place of knowing all things, though some seem to think they have.

NEW Years Resolution for all on christianityboardforum.com

But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

 

[David in NJ]

I did not have time to read all the posts of this thread but i find this topic interesting and i researched the texts and provide my opinions on the subject I wrote this as an article.


Revelation 20:4 stands as one of the most decisive texts in the entire eschatological discussion, because it does not merely describe a vision but establishes a sequence of events tied to historical action, persecution, death, resurrection, and reign. The verse identifies a specific group of people, explains the reason for their death, and places their vindication within a defined temporal framework. Any eschatological system must therefore account for all three elements without collapsing them into symbolism that overrides the text itself.

John writes that he saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. He then specifies who these individuals are: the souls of those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received the mark on their forehead or on their hand. These individuals, John says, lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The description is precise. Their refusal of beast worship and the mark precedes their death. Their death precedes their resurrection. Their resurrection precedes and inaugurates their reign with Christ.

This sequence immediately raises a necessary chronological question. At what point could people be martyred specifically for refusing to worship the beast, his image, and his mark? Three possible periods are often proposed: before the millennium, during the millennium, or after the millennium. The text itself allows only one of these.

A time before the millennium fully accounts for the conditions described. Revelation 13 depicts an active beast exercising global authority, demanding worship, enforcing an image, instituting a mark, and killing those who refuse compliance. The persecution is systemic, coercive, and universal in scope. Martyrdom for refusal is not incidental but central. Revelation 20:4 presupposes precisely this context. The martyrs are not generic believers; they are defined by their resistance to a specific regime and its religious-economic system.

A time during the millennium cannot account for this. Revelation 20:1–3 states plainly that Satan is bound for a thousand years so that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years are finished. Deception of the nations is the very mechanism by which the beast operates in Revelation 13. If Satan is bound, the infrastructure necessary for global deception, enforced worship, and mark-based allegiance does not exist. There is no text that suggests a parallel reign of the beast during Satan’s binding. Martyrdom for refusing the beast therefore cannot occur during the millennium.

A time after the millennium also fails. Revelation 20:7–9 describes Satan’s release after the thousand years. The deception that follows is brief and culminates almost immediately in divine judgment by fire from heaven. There is no extended reign, no rebuilding of a beast system, no institution of worship or a mark, and no prolonged persecution of the saints. The text does not permit inserting a second 42-month reign at this point.

The only coherent conclusion is that the martyrdom described in Revelation 20:4 occurs before the millennium begins.

This conclusion is reinforced by the relationship between Revelation 13 and Revelation 17. In Revelation 13:1, John sees the beast rising up out of the sea. In Revelation 17:8, the same beast is described as ascending out of the bottomless pit. In both cases, the verb used is anabainō, meaning “to ascend” or “to come up.” Revelation 17 interprets Revelation 13, clarifying the beast’s origin and status. The beast “was, and is not, and will ascend out of the abyss and go to destruction.” Ascension implies prior confinement. The beast is not reigning while imprisoned; it becomes active only upon release.

The “sea” imagery in Revelation 13 does not contradict this but complements it. Revelation 17:15 explicitly defines the waters as peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. The beast ascends from the abyss and emerges into the world of nations, bringing chaos, authority, and deception. There is no textual basis for identifying the sea as a benign symbol of human history during the church age while simultaneously identifying the abyss as a place of confinement. Revelation itself unites the imagery.

The political dimension of the beast’s reign further confirms its pre-millennial placement. Revelation 17:12–14 identifies the ten horns as ten kings who receive authority for a short time with the beast. These kings act in unity, give their power to the beast, and make war against the Lamb. Their reign is brief, intense, and coordinated. This aligns with the repeatedly stated duration of forty-two months, one thousand two hundred sixty days, or time, times, and half a time. These expressions describe the same limited period of dominion immediately preceding divine intervention.

This period cannot be distributed across the millennium or absorbed into Satan’s “little season” without doing violence to the text. Revelation 20:4 already places the martyrs before the thousand-year reign, while Revelation 20:7 places Satan’s release after it. The 42-month reign of the beast must therefore precede both the millennium and Satan’s final release.

Jesus’ own teaching confirms this structure. In Matthew 24, He places unparalleled tribulation before His return and states explicitly that His coming occurs immediately after that tribulation. He speaks of persecution, deception, and the killing of His followers as events that must happen first. Only afterward does He appear in glory. Revelation does not reinterpret Jesus; it expands His teaching in apocalyptic detail.

The difficulty for amillennialism is not a lack of symbolism in Revelation but a refusal to respect the internal chronology the book itself provides. Amillennialism requires the persecution of Revelation 13 to occur during a period when Satan is bound, or during a period that Revelation explicitly places after the thousand years. Neither option is textually sustainable. The result is an overlapping of events that Revelation consistently separates.

Revelation 20:4, read carefully and in context, does not describe the church age in general, nor does it describe symbolic victory detached from historical suffering. It describes a specific group of believers who resisted a specific enemy at a specific time and were rewarded with participation in a specific reign. Their faithfulness belongs to the final conflict before Christ’s return, not to an undefined spiritual struggle spread across centuries.

The text therefore leads to a clear conclusion. The reign of the beast occurs before the second coming. The martyrdom of the saints occurs before the millennium. The binding of Satan follows Christ’s return. The thousand-year reign follows the binding. Satan’s final release occurs only after that reign is complete. Any theological system that reverses or merges these events does so not because Revelation demands it, but because the system itself does.

Revelation does not invite the reader to flatten its chronology. It invites the reader to endure, to discern, and to trust that God’s judgments and promises unfold in the order He has revealed.

Blessings.

Dear Lizbeth please read Post 521

Now to you @LoveYeshua and @Lizbeth, the Holy Spirit has a question for you:

Why does Rev 20:4-6 only mention those beheaded/who did not take the MoB???



2026 Motto = Always think and believe TRUTH = Thy word is Truth

 

[David in NJ]

I did not have time to read all the posts of this thread but i find this topic interesting and i researched the texts and provide my opinions on the subject I wrote this as an article.


Revelation 20:4 stands as one of the most decisive texts in the entire eschatological discussion, because it does not merely describe a vision but establishes a sequence of events tied to historical action, persecution, death, resurrection, and reign. The verse identifies a specific group of people, explains the reason for their death, and places their vindication within a defined temporal framework. Any eschatological system must therefore account for all three elements without collapsing them into symbolism that overrides the text itself.

John writes that he saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. He then specifies who these individuals are: the souls of those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received the mark on their forehead or on their hand. These individuals, John says, lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The description is precise. Their refusal of beast worship and the mark precedes their death. Their death precedes their resurrection. Their resurrection precedes and inaugurates their reign with Christ.

This sequence immediately raises a necessary chronological question. At what point could people be martyred specifically for refusing to worship the beast, his image, and his mark? Three possible periods are often proposed: before the millennium, during the millennium, or after the millennium. The text itself allows only one of these.

A time before the millennium fully accounts for the conditions described. Revelation 13 depicts an active beast exercising global authority, demanding worship, enforcing an image, instituting a mark, and killing those who refuse compliance. The persecution is systemic, coercive, and universal in scope. Martyrdom for refusal is not incidental but central. Revelation 20:4 presupposes precisely this context. The martyrs are not generic believers; they are defined by their resistance to a specific regime and its religious-economic system.

A time during the millennium cannot account for this. Revelation 20:1–3 states plainly that Satan is bound for a thousand years so that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years are finished. Deception of the nations is the very mechanism by which the beast operates in Revelation 13. If Satan is bound, the infrastructure necessary for global deception, enforced worship, and mark-based allegiance does not exist. There is no text that suggests a parallel reign of the beast during Satan’s binding. Martyrdom for refusing the beast therefore cannot occur during the millennium.

A time after the millennium also fails. Revelation 20:7–9 describes Satan’s release after the thousand years. The deception that follows is brief and culminates almost immediately in divine judgment by fire from heaven. There is no extended reign, no rebuilding of a beast system, no institution of worship or a mark, and no prolonged persecution of the saints. The text does not permit inserting a second 42-month reign at this point.

The only coherent conclusion is that the martyrdom described in Revelation 20:4 occurs before the millennium begins.

This conclusion is reinforced by the relationship between Revelation 13 and Revelation 17. In Revelation 13:1, John sees the beast rising up out of the sea. In Revelation 17:8, the same beast is described as ascending out of the bottomless pit. In both cases, the verb used is anabainō, meaning “to ascend” or “to come up.” Revelation 17 interprets Revelation 13, clarifying the beast’s origin and status. The beast “was, and is not, and will ascend out of the abyss and go to destruction.” Ascension implies prior confinement. The beast is not reigning while imprisoned; it becomes active only upon release.

The “sea” imagery in Revelation 13 does not contradict this but complements it. Revelation 17:15 explicitly defines the waters as peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. The beast ascends from the abyss and emerges into the world of nations, bringing chaos, authority, and deception. There is no textual basis for identifying the sea as a benign symbol of human history during the church age while simultaneously identifying the abyss as a place of confinement. Revelation itself unites the imagery.

The political dimension of the beast’s reign further confirms its pre-millennial placement. Revelation 17:12–14 identifies the ten horns as ten kings who receive authority for a short time with the beast. These kings act in unity, give their power to the beast, and make war against the Lamb. Their reign is brief, intense, and coordinated. This aligns with the repeatedly stated duration of forty-two months, one thousand two hundred sixty days, or time, times, and half a time. These expressions describe the same limited period of dominion immediately preceding divine intervention.

This period cannot be distributed across the millennium or absorbed into Satan’s “little season” without doing violence to the text. Revelation 20:4 already places the martyrs before the thousand-year reign, while Revelation 20:7 places Satan’s release after it. The 42-month reign of the beast must therefore precede both the millennium and Satan’s final release.

Jesus’ own teaching confirms this structure. In Matthew 24, He places unparalleled tribulation before His return and states explicitly that His coming occurs immediately after that tribulation. He speaks of persecution, deception, and the killing of His followers as events that must happen first. Only afterward does He appear in glory. Revelation does not reinterpret Jesus; it expands His teaching in apocalyptic detail.

The difficulty for amillennialism is not a lack of symbolism in Revelation but a refusal to respect the internal chronology the book itself provides. Amillennialism requires the persecution of Revelation 13 to occur during a period when Satan is bound, or during a period that Revelation explicitly places after the thousand years. Neither option is textually sustainable. The result is an overlapping of events that Revelation consistently separates.

Revelation 20:4, read carefully and in context, does not describe the church age in general, nor does it describe symbolic victory detached from historical suffering. It describes a specific group of believers who resisted a specific enemy at a specific time and were rewarded with participation in a specific reign. Their faithfulness belongs to the final conflict before Christ’s return, not to an undefined spiritual struggle spread across centuries.

The text therefore leads to a clear conclusion. The reign of the beast occurs before the second coming. The martyrdom of the saints occurs before the millennium. The binding of Satan follows Christ’s return. The thousand-year reign follows the binding. Satan’s final release occurs only after that reign is complete. Any theological system that reverses or merges these events does so not because Revelation demands it, but because the system itself does.

Revelation does not invite the reader to flatten its chronology. It invites the reader to endure, to discern, and to trust that God’s judgments and promises unfold in the order He has revealed.

Blessings.

Very well articulated and easy to receive = Print this out and hand it out to those trapped in "satan's little season" and amil

 

[Adventageous]

Happy to work through it with you anytime!

This may not be the thread to do it in. Perhaps we should start a new thread, and call it "Rev. 20 & the 1000 years", and move away from the vitriol in this thread? I would prefer a clean study, but if not, let me know, and I will let you know if I desire to continue in this thread or not.

 

[David in NJ]

This may not be the thread to do it in. Perhaps we should start a new thread, and call it "Rev. 20 & the 1000 years", and move away from the vitriol in this thread? I would prefer a clean study, but if not, let me know, and I will let you know if I desire to continue in this thread or not.

Did you read Post 521?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did not have time to read all the posts of this thread but i find this topic interesting and i researched the texts and provide my opinions on the subject I wrote this as an article.


Revelation 20:4 stands as one of the most decisive texts in the entire eschatological discussion, because it does not merely describe a vision but establishes a sequence of events tied to historical action, persecution, death, resurrection, and reign. The verse identifies a specific group of people, explains the reason for their death, and places their vindication within a defined temporal framework. Any eschatological system must therefore account for all three elements without collapsing them into symbolism that overrides the text itself.

John writes that he saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. He then specifies who these individuals are: the souls of those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received the mark on their forehead or on their hand. These individuals, John says, lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The description is precise. Their refusal of beast worship and the mark precedes their death. Their death precedes their resurrection. Their resurrection precedes and inaugurates their reign with Christ.

This sequence immediately raises a necessary chronological question. At what point could people be martyred specifically for refusing to worship the beast, his image, and his mark? Three possible periods are often proposed: before the millennium, during the millennium, or after the millennium. The text itself allows only one of these.

A time before the millennium fully accounts for the conditions described. Revelation 13 depicts an active beast exercising global authority, demanding worship, enforcing an image, instituting a mark, and killing those who refuse compliance. The persecution is systemic, coercive, and universal in scope. Martyrdom for refusal is not incidental but central. Revelation 20:4 presupposes precisely this context. The martyrs are not generic believers; they are defined by their resistance to a specific regime and its religious-economic system.

A time during the millennium cannot account for this. Revelation 20:1–3 states plainly that Satan is bound for a thousand years so that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years are finished. Deception of the nations is the very mechanism by which the beast operates in Revelation 13. If Satan is bound, the infrastructure necessary for global deception, enforced worship, and mark-based allegiance does not exist. There is no text that suggests a parallel reign of the beast during Satan’s binding. Martyrdom for refusing the beast therefore cannot occur during the millennium.

A time after the millennium also fails. Revelation 20:7–9 describes Satan’s release after the thousand years. The deception that follows is brief and culminates almost immediately in divine judgment by fire from heaven. There is no extended reign, no rebuilding of a beast system, no institution of worship or a mark, and no prolonged persecution of the saints. The text does not permit inserting a second 42-month reign at this point.

The only coherent conclusion is that the martyrdom described in Revelation 20:4 occurs before the millennium begins.

This conclusion is reinforced by the relationship between Revelation 13 and Revelation 17. In Revelation 13:1, John sees the beast rising up out of the sea. In Revelation 17:8, the same beast is described as ascending out of the bottomless pit. In both cases, the verb used is anabainō, meaning “to ascend” or “to come up.” Revelation 17 interprets Revelation 13, clarifying the beast’s origin and status. The beast “was, and is not, and will ascend out of the abyss and go to destruction.” Ascension implies prior confinement. The beast is not reigning while imprisoned; it becomes active only upon release.

The “sea” imagery in Revelation 13 does not contradict this but complements it. Revelation 17:15 explicitly defines the waters as peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. The beast ascends from the abyss and emerges into the world of nations, bringing chaos, authority, and deception. There is no textual basis for identifying the sea as a benign symbol of human history during the church age while simultaneously identifying the abyss as a place of confinement. Revelation itself unites the imagery.

The political dimension of the beast’s reign further confirms its pre-millennial placement. Revelation 17:12–14 identifies the ten horns as ten kings who receive authority for a short time with the beast. These kings act in unity, give their power to the beast, and make war against the Lamb. Their reign is brief, intense, and coordinated. This aligns with the repeatedly stated duration of forty-two months, one thousand two hundred sixty days, or time, times, and half a time. These expressions describe the same limited period of dominion immediately preceding divine intervention.

This period cannot be distributed across the millennium or absorbed into Satan’s “little season” without doing violence to the text. Revelation 20:4 already places the martyrs before the thousand-year reign, while Revelation 20:7 places Satan’s release after it. The 42-month reign of the beast must therefore precede both the millennium and Satan’s final release.

Jesus’ own teaching confirms this structure. In Matthew 24, He places unparalleled tribulation before His return and states explicitly that His coming occurs immediately after that tribulation. He speaks of persecution, deception, and the killing of His followers as events that must happen first. Only afterward does He appear in glory. Revelation does not reinterpret Jesus; it expands His teaching in apocalyptic detail.

The difficulty for amillennialism is not a lack of symbolism in Revelation but a refusal to respect the internal chronology the book itself provides. Amillennialism requires the persecution of Revelation 13 to occur during a period when Satan is bound, or during a period that Revelation explicitly places after the thousand years. Neither option is textually sustainable. The result is an overlapping of events that Revelation consistently separates.

Revelation 20:4, read carefully and in context, does not describe the church age in general, nor does it describe symbolic victory detached from historical suffering. It describes a specific group of believers who resisted a specific enemy at a specific time and were rewarded with participation in a specific reign. Their faithfulness belongs to the final conflict before Christ’s return, not to an undefined spiritual struggle spread across centuries.

The text therefore leads to a clear conclusion. The reign of the beast occurs before the second coming. The martyrdom of the saints occurs before the millennium. The binding of Satan follows Christ’s return. The thousand-year reign follows the binding. Satan’s final release occurs only after that reign is complete. Any theological system that reverses or merges these events does so not because Revelation demands it, but because the system itself does.

Revelation does not invite the reader to flatten its chronology. It invites the reader to endure, to discern, and to trust that God’s judgments and promises unfold in the order He has revealed.

Blessings.

Do you not believe in interpreting scripture with scripture? Many scriptures clearly support amillennialism, so why do you not take that into account when interpreting Revelation 20? Everything you're saying is based on the assumption that the beast is only some future entity, yet Revelation 17 says the beast "was", is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (abyss)". If you want to be taken seriously about this, then tell me the identity of the beast. What does it mean when it says the beast "was"?

If you're going to claim that amillennialism isn't true, then explain why scripture says that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-23) and that His followers have been priests in His kingdom since then (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:5-6)? That makes Revelation 20:6 a current reality. Do you even think of these things?

If amillennialism isn't true, then I invite you to give me an interpretation of the following passage that you can reconcile with premillennialism.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

I have yet to see any Premil give an interpretation of this passage that makes any sense whatsoever. Maybe you can be the first.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Do you not believe in interpreting scripture with scripture? Many scriptures clearly support amillennialism, so why do you not take that into account when interpreting Revelation 20? Everything you're saying is based on the assumption that the beast is only some future entity, yet Revelation 17 says the beast "was", is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (abyss)". If you want to be taken seriously about this, then tell me the identity of the beast. What does it mean when it says the beast "was"?

If you're going to claim that amillennialism isn't true, then explain why scripture says that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-23) and that His followers have been priests in His kingdom since then (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:5-6)? That makes Revelation 20:6 a current reality. Do you even think of these things?

If amillennialism isn't true, then I invite you to give me an interpretation of the following passage that you can reconcile with premillennialism.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

I have yet to see any Premil give an interpretation of this passage that makes any sense whatsoever. Maybe you can be the first.

Yes, Scripture must be read with Scripture. But that rule cuts both ways. We cannot use some passages to cancel others. We must let all the text speak, especially the parts that are clear, repeated, and detailed.

The beast “was, is not, and shall ascend”​

Revelation uses prophetic language, not newspaper language. When it says the beast “was,” it does not mean the final beast is finished and gone forever. It means the same kind of power has appeared before in history. Evil kingdoms rise, fall, and rise again. Daniel already showed this pattern. Empires come, collapse, and return in new forms.

The beast “was” because this spirit of rebellion already worked through past kingdoms. He “is not” because at the time John wrote, the final form was not yet revealed. He “will ascend” because the last and fullest expression is still future. Revelation itself says the beast ascends from the abyss, meaning a renewed, empowered return, not a mere symbol of Rome that stayed in the past.

So no, this does not deny a future beast. It actually explains why the world will recognize him. He looks familiar because he follows the same pattern as past empires.

Jesus reigning now does not cancel a future reign​

No premillennial reading denies that Jesus reigns now. Scripture clearly says He does.

Jesus said, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18). That is true now. He is seated at the right hand of the Father. He rules over His church.

But ruling from heaven is not the same thing as ruling on earth among the nations.

Revelation 20 does not say Christ begins to have authority. It says He reigns in a specific way, in a specific time, with resurrected saints, after Satan is bound. Those details matter.

If Revelation 20 is happening now, then Satan must already be bound so that he can deceive the nations no more. But Scripture says the whole world still lies in deception, and Jesus warned of growing deception at the end. A bound Satan does not match reality.

Believers as priests now does not erase Revelation 20​

Yes, believers are priests now. That is true. But being priests now does not mean we are already living in the final kingdom described in Revelation 20.

The Bible often speaks of things in stages. Salvation has stages. The kingdom has stages. Resurrection has stages.

Revelation 20 speaks of resurrected martyrs reigning with Christ, not believers living normal earthly lives under persecution. That is a key difference. The text is very specific and very concrete.

2 Peter 3 and premillennialism​

2 Peter 3 does not say there are no events before the final renewal of creation. It describes the end of the present order, not everything that happens between Christ’s return and the new heavens and new earth.

Scripture elsewhere clearly shows:

• Christ returns
• The dead are raised in order
• Judgment happens
• Then the final renewal comes

Peter is speaking about the ultimate outcome, not listing every step in between. Revelation gives more detail. Peter gives the destination.

This is not a contradiction. It is the same pattern seen throughout Scripture. One passage gives the big picture. Another gives the timeline.

The real issue​

Amillennialism often starts by assuming Revelation must be symbolic unless proven otherwise. Premillennialism starts by reading Revelation as written, unless the text clearly tells us it is symbolic.

Revelation 20 repeats “a thousand years” six times. It gives order, sequence, and conditions. That kind of detail is not given for something meant to be timeless and invisible.

So the question is not whether Jesus reigns now. He does.
The question is whether Revelation 20 describes that same reign, or a future, earthly phase after His return.

Reading Scripture with Scripture does not flatten prophecy. It lets each passage speak in its own place.

And yes, these things have been thought through carefully. The disagreement is not about reverence for Scripture, but about how much weight we allow Revelation 20 to carry on its own terms.


Blessings

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, Scripture must be read with Scripture. But that rule cuts both ways. We cannot use some passages to cancel others. We must let all the text speak, especially the parts that are clear, repeated, and detailed.

There is a great deal of clear scripture that supports Amillennialism. You can see some of them that I listed in this post in another thread: Unlike Amillennialism, Premillennialism is based on assumptions and speculation rather than on any clear, straightforward scriptures

Revelation uses prophetic language, not newspaper language.

Obviously.

When it says the beast “was,” it does not mean the final beast is finished and gone forever.

Of course not. But, it means whatever the beast represents, it existed even before John wrote the book of Revelation.

It means the same kind of power has appeared before in history. Evil kingdoms rise, fall, and rise again. Daniel already showed this pattern. Empires come, collapse, and return in new forms.

The beast “was” because this spirit of rebellion already worked through past kingdoms. He “is not” because at the time John wrote, the final form was not yet revealed. He “will ascend” because the last and fullest expression is still future. Revelation itself says the beast ascends from the abyss, meaning a renewed, empowered return, not a mere symbol of Rome that stayed in the past.

I generally agree with what you're saying here. So, this means that the beast being in the bottomless pit before later ascending does not mean the beast is completely powerless while in the bottomless pit, but rather means that the beast does not have its full power during that time, but does after it is released from the bottomless pit. Most Premils act as if the beast or Satan being bound in the bottomless pit has something to do with being completely incapacitated, but that is not what it means.

So no, this does not deny a future beast.

I didn't say it denies a future beast. My point is that the beast existed even before John wrote the book of Revelation, so that has to be taken into account. The beast is not some future individual Antichrist as many Premils believe because no future Antichrist has been alive since before the book of Revelation was written. You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what I'm saying for some reason.

It actually explains why the world will recognize him. He looks familiar because he follows the same pattern as past empires.

Why do you say "him" when relating the beast to past empires? The beast is an it, not a him. Its heads are world empires (5 fallen, one is, one yet to come (Rev 17:10).

No premillennial reading denies that Jesus reigns now. Scripture clearly says He does.

So, why do you not take that into account when reading a scripture passage about Him reigning (Revelation 20)? Why do you place the reign of Christ that Revelation 20 refers to in the future, when you acknowledge that He has been reigning for a long time already?

Jesus said, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18). That is true now. He is seated at the right hand of the Father. He rules over His church.

Okay, so why do you not apply this understanding to Revelation 20?

But ruling from heaven is not the same thing as ruling on earth among the nations.

Revelation 1:5 says He is "the ruler of the kings of the earth" and He said Himself that He has all authority, not only in heaven, but also on earth" (Matt 28:18). Nowhere does scripture teach that He would rule "on earth among the nations".

Revelation 20 does not say Christ begins to have authority. It says He reigns in a specific way, in a specific time, with resurrected saints, after Satan is bound. Those details matter.

Revelation 20:6 indicates that when He is reigning His people are priests in His kingdom. Do you not know that we are now priests in His kingdom (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:5-6)? Also, that verse indicates that the second death has no power over anyone who has part in the first resurrection. Does the second death have any power over you? It doesn't have any power over me. It doesn't have any power over the dead in Christ. That should tell you something about the timing of Revelation 20.

If Revelation 20 is happening now, then Satan must already be bound so that he can deceive the nations no more.

He is bound in the same way the beast is bound in the bottomless pit. It's not a case of him being completely incapacitated, but rather is a case of his power being restrained and limited compared to what was the case in Old Testament times.

I relate passages like the following to the binding of Satan.

Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

In Old Testament times, the devil, Satan, held the power of death. But, Jesus took it away from him. Premils do not seem to understand the significance of this and don't understand that this relates to how Satan was bound. Because the power of death was taken away from Satan, the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit has set many people in the world free from the one who had the power of death and wielded it to keep them in bondage through the fear of death and having no hope of eternal life. This is what the binding of Satan is about. It's not about Satan being completely incapacitated, as Premils imagine.

But Scripture says the whole world still lies in deception, and Jesus warned of growing deception at the end. A bound Satan does not match reality.

The whole world? Are you deceived? I'm not. So, what are you talking about?

Paul indicated that in Old Testament times the Gentiles of the world were "without Christ" and had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). For the most part, the Gentile nations were unaware of the word of God in Old Testament times. Has that been true in New Testament times when the gospel of Christ has been preached throughout the world to shine light into a world full of spiritual darkness? No! Revelation 7:9 talks about a great multitude that no one can count from all nations being saved (Rev 7:9). That certainly was no the case in Old Testament times, so that shows the impact of the preaching of the gospel in New Testament times.

Believers as priests now does not erase Revelation 20​

Yes, believers are priests now. That is true. But being priests now does not mean we are already living in the final kingdom described in Revelation 20.

Good grief. Why doesn't it mean that? So much for interpreting scripture with scripture. You are not allowing other scripture to tell you the timing of when believers are made priests to serve in Christ's kingdom. That is what Revelation 20 is about, so the fact that we are priests NOW should tell you something about the timing of Revelation 20, but you try to get around that.

The Bible often speaks of things in stages. Salvation has stages. The kingdom has stages. Resurrection has stages.

Ugh. Being made priests of Christ has nothing to do with stages. And what do you mean resurrection has stages?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20 speaks of resurrected martyrs reigning with Christ, not believers living normal earthly lives under persecution. That is a key difference.

No, it does not. It speaks of souls that John saw living and reigning with Christ. He is in heaven and the souls of the dead in Christ are there with Him.

Scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection, so having part in the first resurrection is to have part in His resurrection, which we all do spiritually when we become saved and go from being dead in trespasses and sins to spiritually alive in Christ.

The first resurrection:

Acts 26:23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

Having part in the first resurrection:

Colossians 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

The souls of the dead in Christ that John saw in Revelation 20:4 had part in Christ's resurrection while they were alive and that's why their souls went to heaven to be with Christ and reign with Him there.

2 Peter 3 and premillennialism​

2 Peter 3 does not say there are no events before the final renewal of creation. It describes the end of the present order, not everything that happens between Christ’s return and the new heavens and new earth.

Scripture elsewhere clearly shows:

• Christ returns
• The dead are raised in order
• Judgment happens
• Then the final renewal comes

Peter is speaking about the ultimate outcome, not listing every step in between. Revelation gives more detail. Peter gives the destination.

This is not a contradiction. It is the same pattern seen throughout Scripture. One passage gives the big picture. Another gives the timeline.

This is an extremely weak response. What I'm asking you to do is exegete the passage and you didn't even attempt to do so. Explain to me how you can reconcile Premil with that passage. Just saying that it's missing details doesn't cut it. Let me show you how I interpret the passage.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

We know that scripture teaches that Jesus will come as a thief in the night. He said it Himself in passages like Matthew 24:42-44 and Revelation 16:15. So, the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night is talking about the day that the Lord returns unexpectedly as a thief in the night. What this passage clearly shows is that upon the arrival of the day of the Lord as a thief in the night (not 1,000+ years later), the heavens, the elements and the earth will be dissolved and burned up.

In no way, shape or form does Peter indicate that the dissolving of the heavens and the elements and the burning up of the earth occurs much later after the coming of the day of the Lord as a thief in the night. He clearly indicates that immediately upon the arrival of the day of the Lord, the heavens, the elements and the earth will be destroyed. That's why he tells his readers to consider what "manner of persons you ought to be in holy conduct and godliness" before that day comes. That implies that day could potentially come during the lifetimes of any of his readers, including you and me. But, if the destruction he describes didn't occur until 1,000+ years after the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, then his words about warning his readers about their behavior and spiritual status would be meaningless because that day couldn't occur in their lifetimes and couldn't apply to them in that case.

Another thing to consider here is what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:13. When he said "we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells", he was referring to the promise of His second coming, which he said the scoffers of the last days scoff at (2 Peter 3:3-4). That means he was saying that we look for new heavens and a new earth in fulfillment of the promise of His second coming. Premils instead look for an earthly millennial kingdom in fulfillment of the promise of His second coming.

The real issue
Amillennialism often starts by assuming Revelation must be symbolic unless proven otherwise. Premillennialism starts by reading Revelation as written, unless the text clearly tells us it is symbolic.

Premillennialism apparently ignores what is indicated at the beginning of the book.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.

God purposely signified the book. That means He purposely made it symbolic so that only His people could understand it. It's similar to Jesus's parables in that way. It's not meant to be read like a news article that reports literal, straightforward facts. It undeniably contains a great deal of symbolism. That doesn't mean every word in the book is symbolic, but much of the book is symbolic because God signified it to be that way.

Revelation 20 repeats “a thousand years” six times.

That means nothing in terms of whether the thousand years is literal or not. The beast is referenced over 30 times in the book. Does that make it a literal beast?

So the question is not whether Jesus reigns now. He does.
The question is whether Revelation 20 describes that same reign, or a future, earthly phase after His return.

The fact that Jesus reigns now and has been reigning since His resurrection must be taken into account when interpreting Revelation 20, but Premils just brush that detail aside. Also, scripture says that He will deliver His kingdom to the Father when He returns at the end of the age (1 Corinthians 15:22-24, Matthew 13:40-43), but Premil has Him doing that 1,000+ years after He returns.

Reading Scripture with Scripture does not flatten prophecy. It lets each passage speak in its own place.

And yes, these things have been thought through carefully. The disagreement is not about reverence for Scripture, but about how much weight we allow Revelation 20 to carry on its own terms.

We should not allow Revelation 20 to carry too much weight on its own terms because it must agree with the rest of scripture. Amillennialism interprets it in a way that does not contradict any other scripture. Premillennialism cannot say the same.

 

[David in NJ]

Do you not believe in interpreting scripture with scripture? Many scriptures clearly support amillennialism, so why do you not take that into account when interpreting Revelation 20? Everything you're saying is based on the assumption that the beast is only some future entity, yet Revelation 17 says the beast "was", is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (abyss)". If you want to be taken seriously about this, then tell me the identity of the beast. What does it mean when it says the beast "was"?

If you're going to claim that amillennialism isn't true, then explain why scripture says that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-23) and that His followers have been priests in His kingdom since then (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:5-6)? That makes Revelation 20:6 a current reality. Do you even think of these things?

If amillennialism isn't true, then I invite you to give me an interpretation of the following passage that you can reconcile with premillennialism.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

I have yet to see any Premil give an interpretation of this passage that makes any sense whatsoever. Maybe you can be the first.

i can easily share with you and @Lizbeth but you are not willing to receive

 

[Lizbeth]

Revelation 20:4, read carefully and in context, does not describe the church age in general, nor does it describe symbolic victory detached from historical suffering. It describes a specific group of believers who resisted a specific enemy at a specific time and were rewarded with participation in a specific reign. Their faithfulness belongs to the final conflict before Christ’s return, not to an undefined spiritual struggle spread across centuries.

The text therefore leads to a clear conclusion. The reign of the beast occurs before the second coming. The martyrdom of the saints occurs before the millennium. The binding of Satan follows Christ’s return. The thousand-year reign follows the binding. Satan’s final release occurs only after that reign is complete. Any theological system that reverses or merges these events does so not because Revelation demands it, but because the system itself does.

I agree. However, what if these things occurred in the first century? What if the mystery of God was "finished" then..? What if Satan's little season is not connected to the false prophet and MOB of the first century, but is connected to the nations rising up in unity against the (true) church at the end of this age. What if the first century believers/martyrs (including the apostles) were part of the first resurrection saints (who already rose from the dead and won't be resurrected a second time but are part of the cloud of saints and holy ones who come WITH the Lord at His coming) and have already been ruling and reigning in heaven....the apostles were martyred and had been told by Jesus that they would sit on thrones judging Israel, who was an enemy of God and His church at that time. The apostles were also part of the foundation along with Jesus and the OT prophets and saints. So Rev 20:4 could be referring to them - first century saints as well as OT saints many of whom had also been martyred.

Here for the sake of discussion is something I have been looking into this morning, I'll leave it to you and others to test and decide for yourselves whether this has merit or not, if you have time to look at it:

Jde 1:16-19

These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

(Clearly, by this passage, mockers and murmerers and complainers walking after their own lusts etc was happening back then….so apparently they were in the “last time” then.)



And see how similar this passage below is to Jude 1 above:

1Co 10:6-12

Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.

And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”[fn]

Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;

nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;

nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.

Now all[fn] these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.



It was John the Revelator himself who wrote this verse before receiving the Revelation:

1Jo 2:18

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.





Rev 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John





Rev 10:6-7

And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.



Consider this, where as soon as Daniel had realized that seventy years of the Babylonian captivity had passed, and interceded for God to have mercy on the desolations of Jerusalem, the Lord gave him a prophecy concerning the coming Messiah and another desolation of Jerusalem that was to come in the future (70AD):



Dan 9:23-27

At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (This to me foretells of the establishment of the new covenant gospel as well as the judgment upon Israel – 70AD - for apostasy and rejection of the gospel and Messiah, and the final annulment/abolishment and end of the old covenant. Henceforth the new covenant was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles who would bear the fruits of it.)

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Remember Jesus prophesying their house would be left to them desolate.)



What did Jesus say on the cross…? “It is FINISHED.” And He said earlier that His meat was to do the will of God and to FINISH His work.

As Paul also wrote this in Romans:

Rom 9:27-31

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

For he will FINISH the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. (notice here how finishing the work is tied to the judgment/destruction of Jerusalem/Israel like Sodom/Gomorrah were judged and destroyed.....and also below, tied to the gospel going to the Gentiles.)

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.


And remember Jesus prophesying of the coming tribulation and destruction, saying that those days would be shortened else no flesh would be saved (referring I believe to both the Jewish church who were being hunted and killed for their faith, as well as that none of unbelieving Israel would have been left alive either if He hadn’t shortened those days of suffering and death. A short work…cut it short in righteousness….out of mercy. Finish the work. Time no longer…end time, last time. Old order of old covenant passed away and new order of the new covenant established. I hope this might furnish some pieces of the puzzle perhaps. As one brother is pointing out, to let scripture illuminate scripture.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Your desperate need to speak poorly of Steven and myself, ie built your defaming case on lies is clearly an indication of the spirit which motivates you.

This is about identifying a pattern of conduct. Your ongoing behaviour, displayed repeatedly by both of you consistently demonstrates a lack of respect for others. It is not unlike Paul’s rebuke of Peter; the difference is that Peter received the correction and responded to wise counsel.

 

[quietthinker]

This is about identifying a pattern of conduct. Your ongoing behaviour, displayed repeatedly by both of you consistently demonstrates a lack of respect for others. It is not unlike Paul’s rebuke of Peter; the difference is that Peter received the correction and responded to wise counsel.

Your self justification doesn't wash, Hidden.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Your self justification doesn't wash, Hidden.

Calling you & SteVen out is the easy part; watching you both repeat the same errors of judgment again and again is the painful part.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Jesus reigning now does not cancel a future reign​

No premillennial reading denies that Jesus reigns now. Scripture clearly says He does.

Jesus said, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18). That is true now. He is seated at the right hand of the Father. He rules over His church.

But ruling from heaven is not the same thing as ruling on earth among the nations.

Revelation 20 does not say Christ begins to have authority. It says He reigns in a specific way, in a specific time, with resurrected saints, after Satan is bound. Those details matter.

If Revelation 20 is happening now, then Satan must already be bound so that he can deceive the nations no more. But Scripture says the whole world still lies in deception, and Jesus warned of growing deception at the end. A bound Satan does not match reality.

Christ must sit upon the throne of His father David and reign over Israel according to the flesh, and ultimately over the whole earth. Certain key events must occur prior to the establishment of this millennial kingdom, events that have not yet been manifested on the earth. The challenge with this topic is that if the listener is unwilling to read, study, and seek an understanding of the Old Testament prophecies, they will never grasp the vision of the coming Kingdom and will remain in a state of confusion.

 

[Adventageous]

I have decided not to participate in this thread.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I have decided not to participate in this thread.

Start a new one!

 

[David in NJ]

I agree. However, what if these things occurred in the first century? What if the mystery of God was "finished" then..? What if Satan's little season is not connected to the false prophet and MOB of the first century, but is connected to the nations rising up in unity against the (true) church at the end of this age. What if the first century believers/martyrs (including the apostles) were part of the first resurrection saints (who already rose from the dead and won't be resurrected a second time but are part of the cloud of saints and holy ones who come WITH the Lord at His coming) and have already been ruling and reigning in heaven....the apostles were martyred and had been told by Jesus that they would sit on thrones judging Israel, who was an enemy of God and His church at that time. The apostles were also part of the foundation along with Jesus and the OT prophets and saints. So Rev 20:4 could be referring to them - first century saints as well as OT saints many of whom had also been martyred.

Here for the sake of discussion is something I have been looking into this morning, I'll leave it to you and others to test and decide for yourselves whether this has merit or not, if you have time to look at it:

Jde 1:16-19

These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

(Clearly, by this passage, mockers and murmerers and complainers walking after their own lusts etc was happening back then….so apparently they were in the “last time” then.)



And see how similar this passage below is to Jude 1 above:

1Co 10:6-12

Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.

And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”[fn]

Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;

nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;

nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.

Now all[fn] these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.



It was John the Revelator himself who wrote this verse before receiving the Revelation:

1Jo 2:18

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.





Rev 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John





Rev 10:6-7

And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.



Consider this, where as soon as Daniel had realized that seventy years of the Babylonian captivity had passed, and interceded for God to have mercy on the desolations of Jerusalem, the Lord gave him a prophecy concerning the coming Messiah and another desolation of Jerusalem that was to come in the future (70AD):



Dan 9:23-27

At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (This to me foretells of the establishment of the new covenant gospel as well as the judgment upon Israel – 70AD - for apostasy and rejection of the gospel and Messiah, and the final annulment/abolishment and end of the old covenant. Henceforth the new covenant was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles who would bear the fruits of it.)

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Remember Jesus prophesying their house would be left to them desolate.)



What did Jesus say on the cross…? “It is FINISHED.” And He said earlier that His meat was to do the will of God and to FINISH His work.

As Paul also wrote this in Romans:

Rom 9:27-31

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

For he will FINISH the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. (notice here how finishing the work is tied to the judgment/destruction of Jerusalem/Israel like Sodom/Gomorrah were judged and destroyed.....and also below, tied to the gospel going to the Gentiles.)

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.


And remember Jesus prophesying of the coming tribulation and destruction, saying that those days would be shortened else no flesh would be saved (referring I believe to both the Jewish church who were being hunted and killed for their faith, as well as that none of unbelieving Israel would have been left alive either if He hadn’t shortened those days of suffering and death. A short work…cut it short in righteousness….out of mercy. Finish the work. Time no longer…end time, last time. Old order of old covenant passed away and new order of the new covenant established. I hope this might furnish some pieces of the puzzle perhaps. As one brother is pointing out, to let scripture illuminate scripture.

Dear Sister,

The doctrine of "we are in satan's little season" is of Satan and it is a LIE

JESUS Said: "See that no one deceives you" - Matt 24:4

TRUTH FACT = If the "Mystery of God" was "finished", you could not be SAVED

 

[amigo de christo]

Calling you & SteVen out is the easy part; watching you both repeat the same errors of judgment again and again is the painful part.

like a five pointed pebble in a shoe on a twenty mile walk . VERY PAINFUL INDEED it is . As in VERY
as in time to take that pebble OU TTA that shoe .
Have a blessed day now . This people seems to desire the love of a lie rather than the LOVE of the Truth .
And thus always work to omit the dire reminders of just how DIRE NECESSARY it is TO BELEIVE ON JESUS .
Cause just as eternal life is real and ONLY IN JESUS CHRIST
so too is eternal damantion , which all who rejected HIM will surely face .