Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

[David in NJ]

I disagree. There is no indication in what Jesus or the apostles or the prophets before them said - in anything that is written - that the two are separate.

If they were indeed separate then I would agree that they speak as "one"

- but there is no indication that they are separate. All that is written speaks as "one"

- and that Word speaks thus:

The resurrection and judgment of ALL the dead will take place immediately following the return of Christ.

When Christ returns, those who died in Christ will rise first, then the rest of those who are in Christ and who are still alive will be changed, and caught up with them - joining them to meet the Lord in the air,

returning with His armies when He destroys the beast, and being judges under His authority of the twelve tribes of Israel.

IMO it's failure to believe that God would do such a thing - by allowing such a thing - as mortals being tested in paradise - that has Premillennialists ignoring the fact that the first three chapters of the Bible ended with the same test of immortals that the thousand years ends with, and needing to develop a theory like the one you just mentioned above, as a result.

The difference lies only between the consequences of all mankind in Adam failing the test, and the consequences for those who fail the final test.

First three chapters:

(a) Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (which began with the words "You will NOT surely die" - Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

-- in Adam all mankind failed the test --

(b) Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24).

(c) Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years later (Genesis 5:5).

IN-BETWEEN THE FIRST THREE CHAPTERS
AND THE LAST THREE CHAPTERS:

--- "I am the Resurrection [anastasis]
and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25 - Jesus) ---​

Last three chapters:

(a) Satan's deception of the nations descended from Adam & Eve.

-- one part of mankind descended from Adam and Eve fails the test --

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Revelation 20:7-9).

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages." (Revelation 20:7-10).

Matthew 10:28
"Fear not them which kill the body [soma], but are not able to kill the soul [psuche]: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [psuche] and body [soma] in gehennah [G1067 geenna]."

The New Testament uses the word gehennah every time Jesus talks about the everlasting destruction of body and soul. In Mark 9:43 & 45 Jesus calls it "the fire that shall never be quenched". Gehennah and the lake of fire burning with brimstone both represent an everlasting destruction of body and soul.

Revelation 19:20 (previous to the first of the last three chapters) tells us that the beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive [zao] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The concept of being damned while alive [zao] is not extra-biblical or alien to scripture.

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Revelation 20:7-9).

A thousand years that commences following the return of Christ is in line with the fact that the last three chapters of the Bible are a reflection of the first three chapters of the Bible:

First three chapters: Beginning of time: God's creation (Genesis 1:1-31).
Last three chapters: Christ makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

First three chapters: Perfectly good (Genesis 1:31).
Last three chapters: Only righteousness dwells in it (Revelation 21:27).

First three chapters: Tree of life (Genesis 2:9, 16-17).
Last three chapters: Tree of life (Revelation 21:6; Revelation 22:1-2, 14, 17).

First three chapters: Adam given dominion (Genesis 1:26-28).
Last three chapters: The dominion of the last Adam (Revelation 20:4 - also see Revelation 3:21).

Adam lived 930 years, and then he died. Christ came into the world, died for the sins of mankind (all my / our sins included, of course), and rose again from the dead.
At the close of the thousand years, we read about something that ends with this consequence:

"..and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

No more grace.

There is much indication!!!

SHALOM

 

[David in NJ]

Sister, you speak to yourself and preach to yourself all at the same time, saying things many like myself and many others have discovered long before you like:

"Scripture is not like reading a book written by a human author.....things need to be grasped and understood in spirit, with ears that hear and eyes that see....in spirit. Which can only come from the Lord, not from our own self and our natural minds of flesh."

The Holy Spirit - through the scriptures - has enabled me and many others to see the flaws in the arguments in the doctrine that everyone knows is commonly called "Amilennialism:.

The same goes for my reliance on the Holy Spirit that has enabled me to see the flaws in some of the arguments of Premillenniists.

You say things similar to what I quoted above almost every time you answer a post of mine - which is you NOT ACTUALLY offering any good advice - but you preaching

- to someone who could have taught you the things you preach about long before you learned them.

- which is why you do not fully grasp or understand what the conversation between myself and @Davidpt and @David in NJ is about.

David does. Leave it up to him to respond to what I say - notice his response is devoid of any preaching about things you yourself only learned long after many of us.

Your preaching is devoid of the understanding that God may eventually give you - that despite reliance on the Holy Spirit to help us to understand what the scriptures are saying - to some degree all of us yet fail to understand certain things - which is why Amillennialism exists - which you yourself adheres to.

We can talk about what the scriptures say without preaching to one another about "why those who do not agree with what I say do not agree with what I say" - because such preaching probably applies to the one offering it more so than the people you are offering it to.

YEP

i am concerned for @Lizbeth

Not about her salvation in CHRIST = no question there as Lizbeth is Genuine Blood Washed Saint in CHRIST

Scripture is not like reading a book written by a human author.....things need to be grasped and understood in spirit, with ears that hear and eyes that see....in spirit. Which can only come from the Lord, not from our own self and our natural minds of flesh.

Dear Lizbeth, this which you said is how false teachers/prophets begin their journey.

While what you said is TRUE, it becomes an open door for ERROR when you reject CLEAR Scripture written for Children to understand.

You have rejected many CLEAR passages of Scripture and are now leaning on your own "spiritual" understanding, which is not good!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks David.

I do not agree with Amillennialism, as you know

- but what I always find annoying (truly annoying) about commentaries is that the doctrinal biases of the commentators are almost always exposed when they say things like this below, even while they conveniently ignore the scriptures that negate what they have just said - showing what they have just asserted, to be a false claim:



Both statements are false. Revelation 20:11-15 can just as well be included at the start of Revelation 21 - which would make Revelation 20:1-10 parenthetic - the chapter divisions in the Revelation were only added in AD 1227 - and the verse numbers in AD 1555.

What the commentator said in point #2 above is also false:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Revelation 11:17-18 (seventh trumpet)

"We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged"

Daniel, Jesus and Paul ALL spoke of the Day of Christ in such a way as to imply that ALL the dead will be raised and judged on the same day - at the time of the return of Christ:

JESUS:

Matthew 25:31-33, 41 & 46
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios zoe]."

20 Now the beast was seized, and along with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf - signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with sulfur.
21 The others were killed by the sword that extended from the mouth of the one who rode the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves with their flesh. -- Revelation 19

Matthew 25:31
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Revelation 20
11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened - the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death - the lake of fire.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Cor 15:54

John 5:26-29
"For as the Father hath life [zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming

- in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(Jesus did not say "SOME" who are in the graves - He said ALL).

THE APOSTLE PAUL:

Acts 24:15
"And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

Daniel 12:2
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

The bulk of the evidence - both in the gospels and in the Revelation - and in passages such as Isaiah 65:17 and 2 Peter 3:13 - negates everything the commentators concluded while they conveniently ignored the biblical evidence that show their assertions up to be false:



Both the above assertions are manifestly false and what remains is the fact that regarding the words "and the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished", manuscript discrepancy exists as to whether or not it was originally penned by the person who penned the Revelation

- in some of the manuscripts that have been found, the words were only included by scribes as a note made by themselves, in earlier manuscripts, the words are simply not there. In later manuscripts, the words appear in the text.

Therefore IMO the words are not enough evidence by themselves to have two days of judgment when the dead are raised and judged - separated by a thousand years, following the return of Christ.

- and I say that even though I believe the thousand years commences immediately after the return of Christ and the judgment of the dead:

Revelation 11:17-18 (seventh trumpet)

"We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged"

You say a lot of things that amils agree with, yet you are still somehow a premil. I'll probably never understand that, but nevermind that for now. I just wanted to ask a question for clarification. Do you believe that the events described in Revelation 20:1-9 chronologically follow the events described in Revelation 20:10-15?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Two are Separate but they Speak as 'one'.

Do you believe that the time when the seventh trumpet sounds is "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" as Revelation 11:15-18 indicates? If so, when does Revelation 20:11-15 indicate that the dead will be judged, before or after the thousand years?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Dear Lizbeth, this which you said is how false teachers/prophets begin their journey.

While what you said is TRUE, it becomes an open door for ERROR when you reject CLEAR Scripture written for Children to understand.

You have rejected many CLEAR passages of Scripture and are now leaning on your own "spiritual" understanding, which is not good!

What clear scripture written for children to understand do you think she is rejecting?

John 5:28-29 is a clear scripture which says that all of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time/hour. Why do you reject that clear scripture?

Matthew 25:31-46 is a clear scripture indicating that all people will be judged at the same time rather than some people being judged at one time with the rest being judged 1,000+ years later. Why do you reject that clear scripture?

2 Peter 3:10-12 is a clear scripture indicating that the heavens, the elements and the earth will be dissolved and burned up on the day when the Lord Jesus comes as a thief in the night. Why do you reject that clear scripture?

 

[Lizbeth]

Sister, you speak to yourself and preach to yourself all at the same time, saying things many like myself and many others have discovered long before you like:

"Scripture is not like reading a book written by a human author.....things need to be grasped and understood in spirit, with ears that hear and eyes that see....in spirit. Which can only come from the Lord, not from our own self and our natural minds of flesh."

The Holy Spirit - through the scriptures - has enabled me and many others to see the flaws in the arguments in the doctrine that everyone knows is commonly called "Amilennialism:.

The same goes for my reliance on the Holy Spirit that has enabled me to see the flaws in some of the arguments of Premillenniists.

You say things similar to what I quoted above almost every time you answer a post of mine - which is you NOT ACTUALLY offering any good advice - but you preaching

- to someone who could have taught you the things you preach about long before you learned them.

- which is why you do not fully grasp or understand what the conversation between myself and @Davidpt and @David in NJ is about.

David does. Leave it up to him to respond to what I say - notice his response is devoid of any preaching about things you yourself only learned long after many of us.

Your preaching is devoid of the understanding that God may eventually give you - that despite reliance on the Holy Spirit to help us to understand what the scriptures are saying - to some degree all of us yet fail to understand certain things - which is why Amillennialism exists - which you yourself adheres to.

We can talk about what the scriptures say without preaching to one another about "why those who do not agree with what I say do not agree with what I say" - because such preaching probably applies to the one offering it more so than the people you are offering it to.

I haven't been following the conversation, just happened to catch your post and thought you might have been referring to me or including me in one or two of your comments, so I responded to try and explain. Nobody is stopping David or anyone else from responding.

Yes, as I was saying, there are lots of things I still do not grasp in the book of Revelation and that is why I need to wait on the Lord because He is the only one who can give the understanding. One thing the Lord did show me is that Rev reiterates the gospel and scriptures that came before it, so I tend to look at the earlier scrips for the meaning of things written in Rev. And other things He has been gracious to show me also.

 

[Lizbeth]

YEP

i am concerned for @Lizbeth

Not about her salvation in CHRIST = no question there as Lizbeth is Genuine Blood Washed Saint in CHRIST


Dear Lizbeth, this which you said is how false teachers/prophets begin their journey.

While what you said is TRUE, it becomes an open door for ERROR when you reject CLEAR Scripture written for Children to understand.

You have rejected many CLEAR passages of Scripture and are now leaning on your own "spiritual" understanding, which is not good!

It's kind of you to be concerned, and I don't doubt you are sincere. There are perils on this journey to be sure, and that is why we are to test the spirits. We weren't promised a rose garden....we are in a war and there are risks involved in taking ground like in any war......however we serve a faithful and trustworthy God.. I'm not afraid of being deceived as long as I'm looking to the Lord and wait for His confirmation etc.....He said if we ask for the Holy Spirit He will not give us a stone and if we ask for bread He will not give us a snake, and if we ask for wisdom/understanding He will give it. .

It depends on what someone means by being as little children.....I don't believe it means to take everything literally, but is speaking of dependence on the Lord, as little children are dependent on their parents.

Brother, please be assured I don't reject any scripture. If I don't respond to some scripture anyone posts, it's because either I don't have time (to weigh and consider as well as post an answer) or don't have enough understanding to be able to answer yet.

 

[Zao is life]

I haven't been following the conversation, just happened to catch your post and thought you might have been referring to me or including me in one or two of your comments, so I responded to try and explain. Nobody is stopping David or anyone else from responding.

Yes, as I was saying, there are lots of things I still do not grasp in the book of Revelation and that is why I need to wait on the Lord because He is the only one who can give the understanding. One thing the Lord did show me is that Rev reiterates the gospel and scriptures that came before it, so I tend to look at the earlier scrips for the meaning of things written in Rev. And other things He has been gracious to show me also.

I would only be referring to you when I answer you about something you said.

If I'm talking to someone else it will be about what they said, unless I'm referring to what Amillennialists in general say, or to what almost all Christians would say or believe regarding another subject - in which case I'm referring to no one in particular.

If I'm quoting you in particular I would probably copy you.

There are some things you say that many other believers would also say.

PS: I fully agree with David about not doubting your salvation, sister - your posts make it very obvious you believe the scriptures are true - whether we understand everything correctly or not - and your posts also make it very obvious who your Lord is (Jesus). It just gets annoying when someone lectures or preaches to me about what I understood (and also know all real Christians understand) - probably long before you even became a believer - instead of just sticking to the subject and the scriptures being discussed.

I also think @David in NJ probably also did not say to me what he said about his not questioning your salvation to tell me what is obvious (by your posts and your respect for the Bible displayed in your posts) - but to let you understand that he is not questioning your salvation.

 

[David in NJ]

It's kind of you to be concerned, and I don't doubt you are sincere. There are perils on this journey to be sure, and that is why we are to test the spirits. We weren't promised a rose garden....we are in a war and there are risks involved in taking ground like in any war......however we serve a faithful and trustworthy God.. I'm not afraid of being deceived as long as I'm looking to the Lord and wait for His confirmation etc.....He said if we ask for the Holy Spirit He will not give us a stone and if we ask for bread He will not give us a snake, and if we ask for wisdom/understanding He will give it. .

It depends on what someone means by being as little children.....I don't believe it means to take everything literally, but is speaking of dependence on the Lord, as little children are dependent on their parents.

Brother, please be assured I don't reject any scripture. If I don't respond to some scripture anyone posts, it's because either I don't have time (to weigh and consider as well as post an answer) or don't have enough understanding to be able to answer yet.

Love you my Sister in CHRIST

Matthew 18:1-5

 

[Zao is life]

It's kind of you to be concerned, and I don't doubt you are sincere. There are perils on this journey to be sure, and that is why we are to test the spirits. We weren't promised a rose garden....we are in a war and there are risks involved in taking ground like in any war......however we serve a faithful and trustworthy God.. I'm not afraid of being deceived as long as I'm looking to the Lord and wait for His confirmation etc

Exactly.

I know you were talking to David, and I'm butting in.

The sign of deception is when someone says something that

1. Denies the Divinity of Christ, and the fact that He is:

The Word of God in whom is life (John 1:4; John 5:26; 1 John 5:11),
who existed with God the Father from eternity,
through whom and by whom all things were created,
who existed before all things,
became flesh, and bore our sins in His own body (praise God),
died and was buried,
and rose again from the dead,
and ascended to heaven BACK TO God from whence He had come when He descended,
sat down at "the right hand of" the Father after having completed our salvation,
and will come again to judge the living and the dead

- and the fact that the New Covenant is the New Covenant in His blood, and the New Covenant has already come

It's obvious that you believe the above - and your respect for (and highest regard for) the biblical scriptures is also obvious in your posts.

There are a number of people who post in these boards who deny all or part of the above gospel, and twist the scriptures to comply with their heresies. It's obvious that you are not one of them. You are one of us, you belong to Christ

- so it's hurtful to the person you are talking to when what you are saying implies that you do not regard the person you are talking to, as belonging to Christ,

or as needing to be told about who our only Teacher is regarding the truth of scripture.

There are Amillennialists on this board whose salvation I do not doubt either - even though some of them are always arrogant and blatantly insulting toward ALL who do not agree with them

- and those who do agree with them often gleefully "like" the same insulting posts - just because they agree with their understanding of scripture regarding the millennium.

As Christians we need to be preached to (reminded) about the fruit of the Spirit being a sign of who we have as Lord of our lives, rather than about "possible reasons why" someone does not agree with our "correct" understanding of scripture.

.....He said if we ask for the Holy Spirit He will not give us a stone and if we ask for bread He will not give us a snake, and if we ask for wisdom/understanding He will give it. .

Excellent! - because the fact that you posted it, shows that you BELIEVE it. As long as you act on it.

Here's a test for you to test yourself with - it's not a question I'm asking you, and I do not want you to reply to this question - it's nobody's business because it's between yourself and God:

How many times have you prayed to God to thank Him for His Word, asking Him to give you understanding of His Word, and wisdom and insight, and to bring to you any background knowledge needed for a correct understanding (Old Testament history, etc)

and to help you to remember what you read, and where you have read it

- BEFORE beginning to read the Bible?

Don't answer because it's not a question I'm asking you, and I do not want you to reply to the question - it's nobody's business because it's between yourself and God.

It depends on what someone means by being as little children.....I don't believe it means to take everything literally, but is speaking of dependence on the Lord, as little children are dependent on their parents.

It means dependence with child-like faith.

When telling us to ask God for wisdom (and understanding of His Word), James continues like this:

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

James had just said that God will give us the wisdom we ask for liberally, and without reproach - repeating what Jesus Himself had said when teaching His disciples about faith, and about faith being able to move mountains, etc, and about asking God.

Brother, please be assured I don't reject any scripture.

That's already clear.

I know you were talking to David, but just so you know it's clear to all who believe scripture and do not reject scripture, that you do not reject scripture.

If someone disagrees with any of us about what scripture is saying about something, does not mean the person rejects scripture.

If I don't respond to some scripture anyone posts, it's because either I don't have time (to weigh and consider as well as post an answer) or don't have enough understanding to be able to answer yet.

No one does, and spending more time in a Christian forum where all sorts of nonsense ideas are being posted - reading my posts or anyone else's posts - rather than reading the Bible, would be a huge mistake.

 

[Zao is life]

You say a lot of things that amils agree with, yet you are still somehow a premil. I'll probably never understand that, but nevermind that for now.

OK

I just wanted to ask a question for clarification. Do you believe that the events described in Revelation 20:1-9 chronologically follow the events described in Revelation 20:10-15?

As an Amillennialist you believe that all the events of Revelation 20 precede the return of Christ.

That's why you can't follow what I'm saying.

Short answer to one short question:

1. I believe that the events in

Rev 20:1-10 and
Rev chapters 21-22

both follow the return of Christ, and are occurring simultaneously in paradise during the first age of the ages of the ages (Revelation 11:15) which follows the return of Christ.

"The ages of the ages": an indeterminate number of aeons (endless cycles of time).

2. I believe that Rev 20:1-10 are parenthetic verses deliberately inserted in-between:

Rev 19:20-21
Rev 20:11-15.

which talk about events that occur with the return of Christ.

That's the short answer. Here's the rest that you did not ask for: (do not read if your mind is closed or if you simply do not want to):

I believe that Rev 20:4-6 are also parenthetic verses deliberately inserted in-between

Rev 20:1-3
Rev 20: 7-10

to give us the timing for what we read about in Rev 20:1-10:

* Rev 15:2: Those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

* The same ones are seen alive [zao] and reigning with Christ in Rev 20:4-6, where John is told that this is the first resurrection of the body [anastasis].

EXPLANATION ONCE AGAIN (do not read if you do not want to)​

FIRST REBELLION AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD - IN PARADISE:

(a) Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (which began with the words "You will NOT surely die" - Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

-- in Adam all mankind failed the test --

(b) Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24).

(c) Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years later (Genesis 5:5).

IN-BETWEEN THE FIRST REBELLION AND THE FINAL REBELLION AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD:

--- "I am the Resurrection [anastasis]
and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25) ---​

FINAL REBELLION AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD - IN PARADISE

(a) Satan's deception of the nations descended from Adam & Eve.

-- one part of mankind descended from Adam and Eve failed the test --

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Revelation 20:7-9).

FIRST REBELLION: God tested mankind in paradise by allowing Satan to lie to them about the Word of God.

Consequence: Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years later (Genesis 5:5).

FINAL REBELLION: God tested mankind in paradise by allowing Satan to lie to them about the Word of God.

Consequence: Fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Revelation 20:7-9).

Note:

The concept of being damned while alive in the body [zao] is not extra-biblical or alien to scripture:

(a) The beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive [zao] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20).

(b) The New Testament uses the word "gehennah" every time Jesus talks about the everlasting destruction of body and soul

- in Mark 9:43 & 45 Jesus calls it "the fire that shall never be quenched".

Gehennah and the lake of fire burning with brimstone BOTH represent an everlasting destruction of body and soul.

"Fear not them which kill the body [soma], but are not able to kill the soul [psuche]: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [psuche] and body [soma] in gehennah [G1067 geenna]." -- Matthew 10:28.

Whether through the death of the body or through God's destruction of body and soul,

the spirit (breath) of life from God that is in Christ

- will go back to the God who gave it. -- Ecclesiastes 12:7

- the souls of those who had been resurrected from the dead and were immortal but yet rebelled against the Word of God will be eternally separated from the life which is given to us in God through Christ, when the final rebellion against the Word of God occurs - in paradise, and God will destroy those rebels - body and soul - by fire coming down from God out of heaven.

 

[Lizbeth]

I would only be referring to you when I answer you about something you said.

If I'm talking to someone else it will be about what they said, unless I'm referring to what Amillennialists in general say, or to what almost all Christians would say or believe regarding another subject - in which case I'm referring to no one in particular.

If I'm quoting you in particular I would probably copy you.

There are some things you say that many other believers would also say.

PS: I fully agree with David about not doubting your salvation, sister - your posts make it very obvious you believe the scriptures are true - whether we understand everything correctly or not - and your posts also make it very obvious who your Lord is (Jesus). It just gets annoying when someone lectures or preaches to me about what I understood (and also know all real Christians understand) - probably long before you even became a believer - instead of just sticking to the subject and the scriptures being discussed.

I also think @David in NJ probably also did not say to me what he said about his not questioning your salvation to tell me what is obvious (by your posts and your respect for the Bible displayed in your posts) - but to let you understand that he is not questioning your salvation.

I just wanted to clarify where I'm coming from, since I'm included in those who people call "Amillennial" (even though as I said, I dont' consider that to be an accurate term.) And I wasn't thinking anyone was doubting my salvation, so don't worry about that, although it's nice to be affirmed. We are discussing things in scripture that are "hard to be understood" and I don't take it that differing views on Revelation have a bearing on one's salvation.

 

[Lizbeth]

Exactly.

I know you were talking to David, and I'm butting in.

The sign of deception is when someone says something that

1. Denies the Divinity of Christ, and the fact that He is:

The Word of God in whom is life (John 1:4; John 5:26; 1 John 5:11),
who existed with God the Father from eternity,
through whom and by whom all things were created,
who existed before all things,
became flesh, and bore our sins in His own body (praise God),
died and was buried,
and rose again from the dead,
and ascended to heaven BACK TO God from whence He had come when He descended,
sat down at "the right hand of" the Father after having completed our salvation,
and will come again to judge the living and the dead

- and the fact that the New Covenant is the New Covenant in His blood, and the New Covenant has already come

It's obvious that you believe the above - and your respect for (and highest regard for) the biblical scriptures is also obvious in your posts.

There are a number of people who post in these boards who deny all or part of the above gospel, and twist the scriptures to comply with their heresies. It's obvious that you are not one of them. You are one of us, you belong to Christ

Yes I do believe those things, amen.

- so it's hurtful to the person you are talking to when what you are saying implies that you do not regard the person you are talking to, as belonging to Christ,

There are those who are so deceived and carnal minded in their approach that I do doubt their salvation, that either they never knew Christ or that they have fallen away. Christendom is a big mission field of those needing the gospel and to come to Christ for real, and it would be wrong to affirm them and approach them as true believers when they need to know their true condition. But I don't doubt your salvation or David's....hope that I didn't come across that way.

or as needing to be told about who our only Teacher is regarding the truth of scripture.

There are many who haven't cottoned on to the spiritual way the Lord communicates, so I often will share that or remind just in case it is helpful to anyone reading, to encourage a "coming up higher", so to speak. It doesn't mean I doubt their salvation, although as I said, some seem SO deeply carnal minded and "deaf" it does make me question.

It means dependence with child-like faith.

When telling us to ask God for wisdom (and understanding of His Word), James continues like this:

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

James had just said that God will give us the wisdom we ask for liberally, and without reproach - repeating what Jesus Himself had said when teaching His disciples about faith, and about faith being able to move mountains, etc, and about asking God.

Amen, and faith is of the Spirit....they go hand in hand, so much so that I almost think of the two terms interchangeably.

There are Amillennialists on this board whose salvation I do not doubt either - even though some of them are always arrogant and blatantly insulting toward ALL who do not agree with them

- and those who do agree with them often gleefully "like" the same insulting posts - just because they agree with their understanding of scripture regarding the millennium.

As Christians we need to be preached to (reminded) about the fruit of the Spirit being a sign of who we have as Lord of our lives, rather than about "possible reasons why" someone does not agree with our "correct" understanding of scripture.

I really hate how there is so much bickering and personal comments directed at others....it is so unpleasant, and not good fruit. I dont know if it is just me getting more sensitive as I get older, or does it seems there has been a lot more of it lately. But I think we may sometimes discern that there are things getting in the way of understanding, but even so, insults and flying verbal fisticuffs are not the right approach if anyone is to be helped.

Excellent! - because the fact that you posted it, shows that you BELIEVE it. As long as you act on it.

Here's a test for you to test yourself with - it's not a question I'm asking you, and I do not want you to reply to this question - it's nobody's business because it's between yourself and God:

How many times have you prayed to God to thank Him for His Word, asking Him to give you understanding of His Word, and wisdom and insight, and to bring to you any background knowledge needed for a correct understanding (Old Testament history, etc)

and to help you to remember what you read, and where you have read it

- BEFORE beginning to read the Bible?

Don't answer because it's not a question I'm asking you, and I do not want you to reply to the question - it's nobody's business because it's between yourself and God.

I dont' mind answering. I read the bible prayerfully, in God's presence, so to speak, not like reading a novel or a textbook. And yes I do often thank and praise and give the Lord glory for understanding, at any time, before, during or after He gives it. And I sure do need Him to help my memory too these days, which He often does.

 

[David in NJ]

Exactly.

I know you were talking to David, and I'm butting in.

The sign of deception is when someone says something that

1. Denies the Divinity of Christ, and the fact that He is:

The Word of God in whom is life (John 1:4; John 5:26; 1 John 5:11),
who existed with God the Father from eternity,
through whom and by whom all things were created,
who existed before all things,
became flesh, and bore our sins in His own body (praise God),
died and was buried,
and rose again from the dead,
and ascended to heaven BACK TO God from whence He had come when He descended,
sat down at "the right hand of" the Father after having completed our salvation,
and will come again to judge the living and the dead

- and the fact that the New Covenant is the New Covenant in His blood, and the New Covenant has already come

It's obvious that you believe the above - and your respect for (and highest regard for) the biblical scriptures is also obvious in your posts.

There are a number of people who post in these boards who deny all or part of the above gospel, and twist the scriptures to comply with their heresies. It's obvious that you are not one of them. You are one of us, you belong to Christ

- so it's hurtful to the person you are talking to when what you are saying implies that you do not regard the person you are talking to, as belonging to Christ,

or as needing to be told about who our only Teacher is regarding the truth of scripture.

There are Amillennialists on this board whose salvation I do not doubt either - even though some of them are always arrogant and blatantly insulting toward ALL who do not agree with them

- and those who do agree with them often gleefully "like" the same insulting posts - just because they agree with their understanding of scripture regarding the millennium.

As Christians we need to be preached to (reminded) about the fruit of the Spirit being a sign of who we have as Lord of our lives, rather than about "possible reasons why" someone does not agree with our "correct" understanding of scripture.



Excellent! - because the fact that you posted it, shows that you BELIEVE it. As long as you act on it.

Here's a test for you to test yourself with - it's not a question I'm asking you, and I do not want you to reply to this question - it's nobody's business because it's between yourself and God:

How many times have you prayed to God to thank Him for His Word, asking Him to give you understanding of His Word, and wisdom and insight, and to bring to you any background knowledge needed for a correct understanding (Old Testament history, etc)

and to help you to remember what you read, and where you have read it

- BEFORE beginning to read the Bible?

Don't answer because it's not a question I'm asking you, and I do not want you to reply to the question - it's nobody's business because it's between yourself and God.



It means dependence with child-like faith.

When telling us to ask God for wisdom (and understanding of His Word), James continues like this:

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

James had just said that God will give us the wisdom we ask for liberally, and without reproach - repeating what Jesus Himself had said when teaching His disciples about faith, and about faith being able to move mountains, etc, and about asking God.



That's already clear.

I know you were talking to David, but just so you know it's clear to all who believe scripture and do not reject scripture, that you do not reject scripture.

If someone disagrees with any of us about what scripture is saying about something, does not mean the person rejects scripture.



No one does, and spending more time in a Christian forum where all sorts of nonsense ideas are being posted - reading my posts or anyone else's posts - rather than reading the Bible, would be a huge mistake.

You did not "but in" - you are Welcome = and great post!!!

 

[Lizbeth]

Love you my Sister in CHRIST

Matthew 18:1-5

May the Lord bless you and your family David....and may you be encouraged and empowered to keep up the good work you are doing where you are! That is more important I believe than parsing all the details of eschatology.

 

[David in NJ]

May the Lord bless you and your family David....and may you be encouraged and empowered to keep up the good work you are doing where you are! That is more important I believe than parsing all the details of eschatology.

Good Morning and Thank You for the encouragement.

Great coffee here at my house = 'The Ruddy Muddy Cafe' = come on over!

 

[David in NJ]

May the Lord bless you and your family David....and may you be encouraged and empowered to keep up the good work you are doing where you are! That is more important I believe than parsing all the details of eschatology.

P.S.

Eschatology is very IMPORTANT to GOD and for us to know = "If it were not so HE would of told us"

Think TRUTH my Sister = Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:18-20

TRUTH = FIRE did NOT come down from Heaven and consume the Roman army is 70AD = this comes AFTER the 1,000 Years

Child like faith is Required in every word that proceeds from the Mouth of GOD

 

[amigo de christo]

I just wanted to clarify where I'm coming from, since I'm included in those who people call "Amillennial" (even though as I said, I dont' consider that to be an accurate term.) And I wasn't thinking anyone was doubting my salvation, so don't worry about that, although it's nice to be affirmed. We are discussing things in scripture that are "hard to be understood" and I don't take it that differing views on Revelation have a bearing on one's salvation.

With that being said there is ONE thing we ought be very concerned about concering revelation .
and that is that one never adds to or takes from those words .
A clear example of this is seen IN HOW they air condition the lake of fire
and even say THAT THEY GET OUT in the end and are restored again .
IT NEVER SAYS THAT in that book . THAT right there would be ADDING TOO and TAKING from .
As far as the thousand years and etc . I BELIEVE IT , though i do not understand this .
One thing i have learned is , IF i do not understand something
THEN better it is that i dont ever try and teach as though I DO understand .
some things are harder to be understood .
WHILE some things by grace we understand quite quickly .
SO HERE IS what I KNOW TO BE SOLID AND T RUE .
ONLY JESUS SAVES , and if one beleives not , OH DEAR ITS THE LAKE OF FIRE for them .
AS it clearly says that ALL UNBELIEVERS , not might , BUT WILL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE OF FIRE .
SO what is real simple is
JESUS PREACHING TIME and to get this people into the bible to learn and to be reminded
OF HIM . cause i am afraid i have rather bad news , MANY follow another jesus and as YOU KNOW that one will not save them .

 

[amigo de christo]

P.S.

Eschatology is very IMPORTANT to GOD and for us to know = "If it were not so HE would of told us"

Think TRUTH my Sister = Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:18-20

TRUTH = FIRE did NOT come down from Heaven and consume the Roman army is 70AD = this comes AFTER the 1,000 Years

Child like faith is Required in every word that proceeds from the Mouth of GOD

now you see , THAT IS A GOOD example . For it is very clear JERUSALEM was NOT SAVED BY GOD IN seventy AD
but rather DESTROYED BY the armies GOD raised up against it FOR ITS REBELLION TO GOD and TO HIS CHRIST .
YET in chapter twenty , THE cAMP of THE SAINTS , which means FAITHFUL TO JESUS ones ,
GOD TOTALLY SHUTS that army that comes against IT DOWN . and RIGHT QUICKLY TOO .

 

[Marvelloustime]

With that being said there is ONE thing we ought be very concerned about concering revelation .
and that is that one never adds to or takes from those words .
A clear example of this is seen IN HOW they air condition the lake of fire
and even say THAT THEY GET OUT in the end and are restored again .
IT NEVER SAYS THAT in that book . THAT right there would be ADDING TOO and TAKING from .
As far as the thousand years and etc . I BELIEVE IT , though i do not understand this .
One thing i have learned is , IF i do not understand something
THEN better it is that i dont ever try and teach as though I DO understand .
some things are harder to be understood .
WHILE some things by grace we understand quite quickly .
SO HERE IS what I KNOW TO BE SOLID AND T RUE .
ONLY JESUS SAVES , and if one beleives not , OH DEAR ITS THE LAKE OF FIRE for them .
AS it clearly says that ALL UNBELIEVERS , not might , BUT WILL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE OF FIRE .
SO what is real simple is
JESUS PREACHING TIME and to get this people into the bible to learn and to be reminded
OF HIM . cause i am afraid i have rather bad news , MANY follow another jesus and as YOU KNOW that one will not save them .

@amigo de christo