Life When Does It Begin? In my experience as a Christian, the most important single question seems to me to be, when does life begin, and what does God think about Birth Control and Contraception? Most people avoid these issues like poison, yet I can't imagine anything more important that needs to be debated in the Church. But, when and where is it allowed to be debated? I, personally, think life for all of us began at the "foundations of the earth" as the Bible says, and as is testified to by many things God says in the Bible. Actually, it was not too long ago that it was a unanimous opinion in the entire Christian Church that all Birth Control and Contraception was a taking of life. For 5000 years this view has pretty much been the view of Judeo-Christianity all the way down to the 1920s when the Anglican Church, bowing to social pressures, OK's Birth 'Control, albeit with a good deal of hand-wringing reluctance, followed over the years by most, but not quite all, Protestant denominations. The Catholics stood relatively firm against this decision of the Anglican, Lambeth Conference, down to the present, but even the Roman Catholics have felt enormous pressure to change their view, and have by approving so-called "natural" birth control, which seems to differ from "artificial" birth control, only in degree. Humanae Vitae Encyclical was their authoritative response to Lambeth, and yet it is not as firm a rejection of Birth Control as was in place prior. The big "loophole" in Humanae is the application (or invention?) of a new term called "Natural" Birth Control, as opposed to "Artificial" Birth Control. Natural means, essentially, the so-called Rhythm Method, wherein the couple avoid relations during the woman's fertile period of the month, of 15 or so days. Of course, this "dodge?" must be used prayerfully, and not abused, but evidence is that it is simply used for convenience, much like "artificial" means. Well, there you have it. Note: This "natural" system also contradicts the Bible where in Leviticus God instructs that the husband is to "go unto his wife" only during the 15 fertile days, and avoid "going in unto" during the time of her period.Now, the consequences of the implementation of this matter are enormous. Whole nations are slated to disappear (mostly the Christian ones) from the face of this earth because of low birth rates created by the large scale use of ALL KINDS OF Birth Control. Mathematically, any group of humans who reproduce at half of replacement, the rate currently in most of the West, become statistically extinct in less than 100 years. By that figuring Europe and most of the West are gone by the end of this century. If we are not going to be here, what will we need with the Constitution, the Flag, AND the Bible? So this issue has absolutely profound consequences for all kinds of things, including National Defense and social, and economic issues of all sorts, such as immigration, legal and illegal. While it is an issue the Church should debate, there is little debate. Why?
LIfe When Does It Begin?
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By the sound of your post, I'd expect you would have read him, but Patrick Buchanan is an excellent voice in this very arena. What makes so little sense about abortion and etc. is that it doesn't make sense even at the basest, least-religious level. Populations are all shrinking in the western world, average ages continue to rise. The only thing that props it us is a surge of immigration. It's cultural suicide.Despite attempts to muddy the waters, I think God stands pretty clear on the issue:Exodus 21:22-25 describes a legal penalty for the death of an unborn child.
There are others, but these are the most obvious in my mind. If a child in a womb in conscious enough to leap, then the child is alive. For further proof of that, I refer to the pictures taken over a decade ago:http://www.michaelclancy.com/story.html (Is slightly graphic, with blood.)
For the raising of childrenCosts steadily rise.Have a child or eat?One is often not wise.However, abortion,It's a taking of life.By machine, it's the sameAs wielding a knife.Contraception, I ponder,As it prevents planted seeds.Not quite a life made,No growth and no needs.Perhaps it is bestPeople don't procreateIf they can't raise the childIn a proper state.Of course the world now groansUnder huge populations.Perhaps shrinking the massesWill ease it's tribulations?It's just a loose thought,And I am just a man.I've no deeper insightInto His master plan.
Good forum. But, on this matter of life, I am very Pro-Life, though not exactly in the same way some other Pro-Lifers are. Problem is, I see abortion as pretty well covered and advocated against. What troubles me is the almost total ignoring of Birth Control, which, as a matter of fact, is 10 times as deadly to children in terms of lost lives, and in addition it takes the "best" lives. That is, those lives that have the best parents of the best and brightest Christian Conservatives of the Nation. In other words, abortion can be called, the birth control of the underclass who would likely make the worst parents, whereas Birth Control is just the opposite. Therefore, I am speaking most directly to the Best and Brightest, (by any standard, and BTW regardless of ethnicity) who typically have intact solid marriages, health, good habits, education, jobs, homes, networks of friends, churches and supportive extended families, all things that tend to give children a quality life to allow them to grow up to be the productive citizens and church members. That is why I am so perplexed by the sidelining of this aspect of Pro-Life, especially by Pro-Lifers and Christians. Because of this imbalance, I have chose to focus on Birth Control taking of life, an not say much of anything about abortion. Also Birth Control has none of the arguing points that anti-Life Liberals like to use against Pro-Lifers, which is that abortions usually end the lives of babies that are more likely to grow up and be the greatest burden on society and the taxpayers, and to fill up the prisons etc. Unwanted children just don't turn out too well. And how wanted could a child be that its own mother wants to kill? Also how Christian and/or Conservative could she and he be? Likely she and her mate, if there is one, are heathen Democrats. So, bottom line is, why is Birth Control as an evil so ignored by Christians and Conservatives? I'm dumbfounded and looking for answers to that one. Any ideas? Of course one can go the old argument that a sperm and egg are not alive, but I think the evidence is overwhelming that they are, when it is looked at carefully and fully. The baby is just as dead if killed one second before conception as it is if it is killed one second after conception. In either case its life is hanging by a string for all kinds of reasons, but I don't see any difference fundamentally, and legal, insurance, and biblical sources support this view.
Agreed, and good point:The top tier are lessProne to having kids,But can provide the best.I wonder, why so?No answer is there.To the children aloneThis seems quite unfair.
Thanks for the poem, but I have to take issue with some of what it says. It can be argued that the world in some ways may be over-populated, though the opposite can also be argued, but in any case, even if it were true, my point is that the world has too few of the right sort of people, and perhaps too many of the wrong sort. Now reducing our best numbers because we have too many who are more of a problem than a help, does nothing to help us. If we do need to reduce numbers, and I'm not saying that we do, then at least we need to prune from the bottom of the socio-economic scale, and not from the top, as we are now doing. I'm not advocating, in any way, irresponsible reproduction, just complaining that there is not enough responsible reproduction. There is much evidence in the Bible that God does not consider all life to be equally good, and to me the bible is the final word on everything. "He loved Jacob and hated Esau, while they were yet in their mother's womb." This is just one quote, and there are many others along those lines. But, nonetheless, welcome to the Forum. I am new here too, and am here to learn, and teach what little I know.
If you note my last verse,As you assess I agree.Less opportunities for childrenIs a shame to see.Thoughtless procreationIs insanely abound,The plight of the childrenIs crushingly profound.
Yes indeed, you are right, it does,For the disappeared child it is sadWhen Birth Control's all the BuzzAnd a healthy child needs a Mom & a Dad.
Cleverly writ and presented quite fair!Clever rhyme is never that hard to do.Points made quite correctly,Points for poetry too.
I'm a very practical kind of Christian, and don't much like all the lofty spiritualizations that are so popular with so many. I want to know in concrete terms what kind of life God wants for me, not to go on in an endless series of generalizations about "knowing" God, and being "one" with Christ. I want to know what we do AFTER we "know" God, and AFTER we are at "one" with Christ. The Frozen Chosen leave me cold. I want to know exactly what we do with our lives to serve the Father, not all this talk about this "relationship" with Christ and nothing following. Relationships, in my eyes, are defined by WHAT they do, and WHAT they accomplish, not in the mysticism of their just being thought about like a head game. Sorry, but I'm not a Christian that "spiritualizes" everything. I believe in the literal Bible not in everything being spiritualized to death. When Jesus says, "Feed my sheep," I think He means much more than just feeding the sheep Bible verses and spiritual generalizations. I think He means to literally feed the actual sheep, to physically feed both the two legged sheep and the four legged sheep, and that means food that is business success, and education, and children and families, and doing our civic duty, and being involved in politics, and taking responsibility for the evil in the world, and doing something about it, and so on, in short battling the anti-Christ even if we lose. In other words Faith without works is void, just as works without faith is rags. I think Christians have an obligation to be healthy and live healthy lifestyles and not be over weight and a burden on others, and so on. And an obligation to be as educated as they can, so they can help and teach others, and to make as much money as they can, so they can help others. Life is about living, not vegetating.
I disagreeOf the work to the rag.I know of a manWho erases that tag.Vocally Godless(and that, very loud)NeverthelessHis work makes God proud.He has fed the hungry,And sheltered the ill,While not a penny earningHe continues this still.With faith in nothingBut in his own handAgainst all unfairnessHe ever will stand.I envy his fierceness,His positive zeal,The energy withWhich he gives weal.While faith would no doubtGive ease to his rageWho are we to sayHis works are rags in this age?To succor and peaceStrive we of the Lord.But not every faithlessSatan's greatship will board.
Solo Scriptura Solo ScripturaTo reduce the Bible to but one wordDoes endless harm where the prophets stoodSome think the Gospel’s but a toyFor a Little Lord Fontleroy.But it’s far wider than you can seeReaching from Genesis to Eternity.Reductive is the game you playCumulative are the sins you say.God is bigger than we can knowHis total Word’s the entire show.Would be, wannabe saints aboundWould they had more than one sound.A single shower does not a summer makeIt takes a year of rain our thirst to slake.So take the Bible strong and wholeMake it stand as your strong tent pole.
Typical of men who are scared to death if we learn Gods words without their twisting and lies traditions their money coffers will shut off. The truth will be learned and they will be seen for what they really are ....... this is basically saying that without men to tell you what God says you will be lost biggest bunch of lies and baloney in the world All knowledge comes from God not men but hey if one is gullible enough to believe this trash whats left to be said ..................................................................And to get back on topic LIFE STARTS AT CONCEPTION AND GOD IMORTALIZED IT IN HIS FEASTS http://www.christianityboard.com/in...le=post§ion=post&do=reply_post&f=5&t=2295
forgivenWretch
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Does not it take..one live celljoining to another live cellto form yet another live cell?Life began when God breathed lifeinto Adam andhas never ceased since.
I'm having trouble understanding your post. Does it mean you don't approve of my views? Does this mean I am not welcome? I'm confused. I seem to be getting the unwelcome sign.
No of course it doesn't mean your not welcome It simply means I disagree with your post This being a bible study site we try to study scripture not men's interpretation of scripture and their traditions if you chose to follow men thats entirely your choice. It by no means was intended to mean you aren't welcome to study with us. Just that I disagree
I agree on the Bible being the only authority. NO problem there. But the Bible depends on interpretation, always has, always will. And it is "Men" and "Women" who do the interpreting, and that is where the "traditions" of men enter. I have no problem with the Feasts as a recapitulation of pregnancy, and believe it to be true, but that doesn't mean that life begins at conception. The part of life that occurs at Conception begins at Conception, but the part of life that begins before Conception occurs before Conception. God, knew us from the beginnings of the earth, and therefore we all had existence since that time. That is my view. And the practical side, (and there is always a practical side to anything worth anything in the Bible) is that birth control is being used to destroy life by Christians, on the false grounds that it is not killing to kill the egg and the sperm one second before they become one. The practical effect is that we are being genocided by this false doctrine of life beginning at Conception.
Actually the beginning of a human life does indeed start at Conception. And God knows His children. Before we were humans, we existed in our spirit bodies, which is our original body.Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.With all due respect, it seems everybody loves to claim that every belief they believe in comes from God. From God? Not so. If every believe comes from God, we would not need the Bible... And the bible clearly, I mean very clearly that Christ comes in the volume of the Bible. (Psalm 40:7, Hebrews 10:7) Not a single, not a chapter of the book, not the book, (like Genesis, Exodus, Matthew, Mark etc) but the whole entire Bible.Who gets the teaching right? Christ / God or men? So if one is wrong, and the other right, does glory goes all to the person who is a sinner who is right on a particular subject? God forbids that even if a flaw human being is right... All glory goes to God, because He gave His children the answers if one knows where to look for it. So if a human that is right on a particular subject, why does everybody has to say {{{Insert name}}} says this or {{{Insert name}}} says that... Does this occur to anybody in their brain that it is God says that? Just because one never heard the Truth, doesn't mean God doesn't say it.
I agree with you that we are spirit beings,that God foreknew us ... we existed from before ...flesh is but a state we in now and we will return to our spirit/soul state at Christs return( 1Cr 15:52 )but abortion can not kill our soul/spirit thats the part of us that returns to the father when we die ...So I fail to see how abortion can be related genocide.. before conception. .............................And true we must depend on men to a degree ...But we know longer know how to translate Gods Word because men have lost that ability ... God doesnt write a book no one can understand ...Its men who keep us from understanding it most cases because they follow their traditions ... Example: where does God say the earth is 6000 years old? He doesnt we can only time the earth from Adam till now ... God has things to say on this ...Yet it is misunderstood / denied by mostwhy? because men have said the earth is 6000 years old ..So they are blind to what God really tells us .. because it doesnt agree with men ..Thus we are in a time of Amos 8:11
Well, yes, but God has told me, and the Bible confirms it, to teach against Christians practicing Birth Control of any sort, shape or type, in any way. Thus Christians who do these things are wiping us out, and that is not pleasing to God, as it is killing off God's people, and that would only be pleasing to Satan. Amen
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