Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[Dave L]

***

Since you say we must be faithful do you include yourself? No man in sinful flesh has been faithful. Even David was not faithful in that in the end he worshiped the pagan gods of his 900 concubines.

One thing is sure, only God is faithful and He keeps His own children.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

 

[H. Richard]

Yes, and faith (faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit we must have before faith can exist.

*****

I take it that you are saying that you are faithful. To what or whom are you faithful? Do you faithfully teach that Jesus' shed blood on the cross has paid for the sins of everyone but only applies to that that believe it does?

I do not believe that God has given mankind a CLASS system where some are greater than others. All of mankind is under the curse of sin and the only escape is through the blood of Jesus. A way created by God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

6If we say, "We have fellowship with Him," yet we walk in darkness, we are lying and are not practicing the truth. So believe that if you like, but that does not mean that that is what John was saying, ok. We are plainly told twice the sons of hell and seven worse spirits in other passages, and these do not seem to occur in your belief system? And you don't have to acknowledge them for my sake either, ok, believe you have no sin if you like, and don't answer my questions if you don't want to, you do not owe me any explanations. Congratulations on your salvation even

You are actually comparing the world with Christians. 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are the world, not Christians. 1 John 1:7 is a Christian, and 1 John 1:9 is how to become a Christian.

I am answering your questions. You just don't like the answers.

 

[ScottA]

All three divine Persons of the Holy Trinity draw men to Christ.

THE FATHER
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)

THE SON
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

THE HOLY SPIRIT
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

God is One. But let us not misrepresent what Jesus (the Author of our faith) said about who draws [all]. That is the context and the reason for my comments. Saying that the Holy Spirit alone is the requirement for saving faith...is wrong.

 

[Dave L]

*****

I take it that you are saying that you are faithful. To what or whom are you faithful? Do you faithfully teach that Jesus' shed blood on the cross has paid for the sins of everyone but only applies to that that believe it does?

I do not believe that God has given mankind a CLASS system where some are greater than others. All of mankind is under the curse of sin and the only escape is through the blood of Jesus. A way created by God.

Universal atonement = salvation for the self-righteous only, by works.
Limited Atonement = salvation for those who cannot save themselves but want to be saved, by grace.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

***

Since you say we must be faithful do you include yourself? No man in sinful flesh has been faithful. Even David was not faithful in that in the end he worshiped the pagan gods of his 900 concubines.

One thing is sure, only God is faithful and He keeps His own children.

I see you don't know the Bible very much. It was not David who had 900 concubines, but his son, Solomon.

And your statement of "no man in sinful flesh has been faithful", you are right. Without Jesus, no man is. But that is why Jesus came and gave us who repent His Spirit. Romans 8:9 But we are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, if indeed, the Spirit of God dwells within us. And if you don't have the Spirit of Christ, then, as you say you still have the sinful flesh and cannot be faithful and can never please God and be saved.

 

[ScottA]

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

Indeed. But according to Christ, the Holy Spirit does not act on His own authority...salvation is given to Christ (after the Father draws whomever He chooses).

 

[Dave L]

Indeed. But according to Christ, the Holy Spirit does not act on His own authority...salvation is given to Christ (after the Father draws whomever He chooses).

He draws them by giving them the Holy Spirit.
“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:2)

 

[bbyrd009]

A person who has Confessed their sin and become Converted....

Is not a person claiming they have No SIN.

Obviously they acknowledged their sin when they Confessed their sin.

Their sin did not Vanish...Their sin became Forgiven Sin...

And their sin became Covered with Gods Light (via His Indwelling Spirit).

Sin is equated with evil, corruption and darkness.

Gods Light is equated with, goodness, power and having the ability to overcome darkness.

Darkness that becomes Overcome with Light...renders the darkness unseen and forgotten.

A Converted man has already agreed with God to have God Himself overcome a mans sin With Gods Light.

God Himself no longer sees or remembers the mans sin, nor does the man have a requirement to remember and dwell on forgiven and covered sin.

God Bless,
Taken

yes, and when you all get to heaven, what a day of rejoicing that will be. I'm intimately fam with the drill ok

 

[1stCenturyLady]

***

I have a question, when you say we receive "power over sin" how do you see this?

1. Are you saying that a person is given the power to not sin in the flesh?

2. Or are you saying that our power over sins of the flesh is the shed blood of Jesus on the cross that has already paid for our sins of the flesh?

If Number 1 then why do those in Christ still sin in the flesh?

Evidently you have been taught that we are still the same after believing in Christ, just forgiven while we keep on sinning. That is a false doctrine that became very popular during the Reformation, and is still popular to those who are in the Church, but are not of it. To them Jesus will say, "I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness."

Few there are who find it. You must be born again, which means we are given the Holy Spirit. And to receive Him the first thing you must do is REPENT. Repent from your sin nature. Want to become clean and to become like Christ. If that is not your desire, and you love darkness over light, then that is the way you will remain. The power that Christ gives us over sin is His gift to us. It is then Him working righteousness through us.

Romans 6:2 we are dead to sin.
Romans 8:2 the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:9 you are NOT IN THE FLESH but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God indwells you.
1 John 3 study carefully. If you are still sinning you are of the devil and still lost.

If you need help in this, let me send you my testimony. I was in the church for nearly 30 years before becoming saved. I'm afraid, there are many in the church just like I was.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Their sin did not Vanish...Their sin became Forgiven Sin...

Their sin did not Vanish...Their sin became Forgiven Sin...

And their sin became Covered with Gods Light (via His Indwelling Spirit).

What you are describing is the sacrifice of animals, not Jesus. The blood of bulls and goats merely covered sin, while it was still there. The blood of Jesus TAKES AWAY sin.

Are you in a denomination that was begun in the Reformation? It sounds like it.

 

[bbyrd009]

You are actually comparing the world with Christians. 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are the world, not Christians. 1 John 1:7 is a Christian, and 1 John 1:9 is how to become a Christian.

I am answering your questions. You just don't like the answers.

go with that then, i didn't say i don't like the answers, i said they will not hold up to the other Scripture that you have already glossed and still are not acknowledging, and congrats on your salvation

 

[Taken]

yes, and when you all get to heaven, what a day of rejoicing that will be. I'm intimately fam with the drill ok

Just saying 1 John 1:8 has no application to a Converted man.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[H. Richard]

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

**

So are saying David went to hell because he sinned? Get over it! The only righteousness that the children of God has is that righteousness given to him as a free gift through the blood of Jesus. The children of God have been imputed with God's righteousness.

Rom 3:21-22 __ God's Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
NKJV

Gal 3:21-22
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
NKJV

Universal atonement = salvation for the self-righteous only, by works.
Limited Atonement = salvation for those who cannot save themselves but want to be saved, by grace.

***
You got it wrong.

Universal atonement = God's power in the work of Jesus on the cross where Jesus' blood has atoned for the sins of the whole world (THE SCIPTURES SAY THIS) ----- But it is limited in that it does not save anyone unless they believe it does. Only those that place their belief, faith, trust and and confidence in HIS work on the cross will be saved. This shows that the SELF-RIGHTEOUS (righteousness by man's works) will not be saved because of their unbelief..

 

[Dave L]

**

So are saying David went to hell because he sinned? Get over it! The only righteousness that the children of God has is that righteousness given to him as a free gift through the blood of Jesus. The children of God have been imputed with God's righteousness.

Rom 3:21-22 __ God's Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
NKJV

Gal 3:21-22
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
NKJV


***
You got it wrong.

Universal atonement = God's power in the work of Jesus on the cross where Jesus' blood has atoned for the sins of the whole world (THE SCIPTURES SAY THIS) ----- But it is limited in that it does not save anyone unless they believe it does. Only those that place their belief, faith, trust and and confidence in HIS work on the cross will be saved. This shows that the SELF-RIGHTEOUS (righteousness by man's works) will not be saved because of their unbelief..

David could not remain in a sinful lifestyle, which BTW he didn't. Neither can we who believe in Christ.

 

[H. Richard]

Evidently you have been taught that we are still the same after believing in Christ, just forgiven while we keep on sinning. That is a false doctrine that became very popular during the Reformation, and is still popular to those who are in the Church, but are not of it. To them Jesus will say, "I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness."

Few there are who find it. You must be born again, which means we are given the Holy Spirit. And to receive Him the first thing you must do is REPENT. Repent from your sin nature. Want to become clean and to become like Christ. If that is not your desire, and you love darkness over light, then that is the way you will remain. The power that Christ gives us over sin is His gift to us. It is then Him working righteousness through us.

Romans 6:2 we are dead to sin.
Romans 8:2 the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:9 you are NOT IN THE FLESH but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God indwells you.
1 John 3 study carefully. If you are still sinning you are of the devil and still lost.

If you need help in this, let me send you my testimony. I was in the church for nearly 30 years before becoming saved. I'm afraid, there are many in the church just like I was.

****

So you are saying you no longer sin in the flesh, right! Or is that power you have been given limited.

You really need to listen to what Paul said in Romans 7. There is a war between the flesh and the spirit in a child of God. But the child of God already has the victory but not by their power but by God's power in His Son's work on the cross. That does not mean his/her flesh has stopped sinning.

When a person thinks they have stopped sinning in their flesh they have become self-righteous. The spirit is what counts in a child of God. The flesh counts for nothing. It is pride that makes people think they are better than others because they think they no longer sin in the flesh.

The Child of God knows that the only relief they have is in the work of Jesus on the cross where He provided a way for those in sinful flesh to become children of God. That is why Paul thanks God that through Christ he has been saved from his sinful flesh. God does not save the flesh.

 

[H. Richard]

David could not remain in a sinful lifestyle, which BTW he didn't. Neither can we who believe in Christ.

You say he didn't. Where did you find that in the scriptures?

 

[Dave L]

You say he didn't. Where did you find that in the scriptures?

David repented and God forgave him.

 

[Enoch111]

Saying that the Holy Spirit alone is the requirement for saving faith...is wrong.

Correct. The Godhead works as one God.

 

[bbyrd009]

Just saying 1 John 1:8 has no application to a Converted man.

God Bless,
Taken

so you say, yes. So then if one decides they are "converted" it is then ok to say they have no sin, rather than contemplating that it is just very few who are actually in Christ and sinless as are being spoken of, and of course the "seven worse spirits" and "twice the sons of hell" mean other people too right, we shouldn't even be considering them at all in this perspective lol, they're obviously "unconverted" too right

If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us

is speaking directly to you, imo, whoever you are, converted or not, so i do agree that if you say you have no sin you are not converted; maybe we agree there, not sure