Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

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Dave L

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No one here that I have read is saying that there is universal salvation meaning ALL will be saved. If that is what you think they are saying it is only in your mind. The scriptures tell us that Jesus' work on the cross has paid for the sins of the whole world. That comes from the Bible. But most are missing the other part. No one will go to heaven unless they place their faith in what Jesus did on the cross. Not everyone will place faith in what they can not see with their eyes. But most will easily believe that their salvation is obtainable by their religious works that they can see.
So, Christ died for all sins except the sin of unbelief? This means he didn't pay for any sin since all sin is the result of unbelief.
 

H. Richard

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Where is faith a condition for salvation? It's a characteristic for those whom God saves.

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Heb 12:2
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NKJV

1 John 5:4
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.
NKJV
 
D

Dave L

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Heb 12:2
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NKJV

1 John 5:4
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.
NKJV
Author = originator of our faith.
 

H. Richard

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So then you agree one must first be born again before they can discern Christ as defined by scripture?

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Don't know where you are going to take this but it is the helper (The Holy Spirit) that teaches the children of God and every child of God has been born of God.

Faith comes through hearing the word of God. Sad to say that most do not read the word of God for themselves. They listen to the religious and place their faith in what they teach. They do not know that faith in man will not save anyone.
 

justbyfaith

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Where is faith a condition for salvation? It's a characteristic for those whom God saves.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must first have before you can believe. How can it be a condition? “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

Romans 5:1-2,

Therefore being justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
 
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Dave L

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Romans 5:1-2,

Therefore being justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
Yes, and faith (faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit we must have before faith can exist.
 

justbyfaith

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Yes, and faith (faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit we must have before faith can exist.
That makes no sense. You are saying that we must have faith before we can have faith. It is the same thing.

Faith is our response to the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17).

Truly, it is a fruit of the Spirit; but how can initial faith be a fruit of the Spirit? Through it we gain access into the grace wherein we stand. Can we have the fruit of the Spirit apart from the grace of God? According to the verses I have quoted, faith comes before grace. And since that is the case, either we can have the fruit of the Spirit apart from the grace of God or else faith as a fruit of the Spirit is over and above the initial faith of accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour; and the initial faith of accepting Jesus does not result from salvation (except in its continued form) since it is by faith that we gain access into grace. Therefore if faith is only a fruit of the Spirit...and not also the response of the drawing effect of the Spirit in initial salvation faith, which is not a fruit of the Spirit but a response to the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17), then we have access into faith through this grace wherein we stand...and that is not what the scripture teaches, it teaches the opposite. Therefore since our access into grace is through the faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17), initial faith is not a fruit of the Spirit, it does not result from salvation, since it is a cause of salvation...we have access into salvation (grace) through it (faith).
 
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Dave L

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That makes no sense. You are saying that we must have faith before we can have faith. It is the same thing.

Faith is our response to the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17).

Truly, it is a fruit of the Spirit; but how can initial faith be a fruit of the Spirit? Through it we gain access into the grace wherein we stand. Can we have the fruit of the Spirit apart from the grace of God? According to the verses I have quoted, faith comes before grace. And since that is the case, either we can have the fruit of the Spirit apart from the grace of God or else faith as a fruit of the Spirit is over and above the initial faith of accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour; and the initial faith of accepting Jesus does not result from salvation (except in its continued form) since it is by faith that we gain access into grace. Therefore if faith is only a fruit of the Spirit...and not also the response of the drawing effect of the Spirit in initial salvation faith, which is not a fruit of the Spirit but a response to the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17), then we have access into faith through this grace wherein we stand...and that is not what the scripture teaches, it teaches the opposite. Therefore since our access into grace is through the faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17), initial faith is not a fruit of the Spirit, it does not result from salvation, since it is a cause of salvation...we have access into salvation (grace) through it (faith).
You cannot have saving faith apart from first having the Holy Spirit.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)
 

Enoch111

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must first have before you can believe. How can it be a condition? “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)
You are confusing saving faith with one of the fruit of the Spirit. Faith is also one of the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:9). But that is not saving faith either.

The Bible is very clear that the Holy Spirit (who produces the fruit and the gifts) is given to sinners who FIRST repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

Therefore saving faith, as well as the New Birth, is a result of hearing the Gospel.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)

1 PETER 1
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
 
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Dave L

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You are confusing saving faith with one of the fruit of the Spirit. Faith is also one of the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:9). But that is not saving faith either.

The Bible is very clear that the Holy Spirit (who produces the fruit and the gifts) is given to sinners who FIRST repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

Therefore saving faith, as well as the New Birth, is a result of hearing the Gospel.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)

1 PETER 1
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Before we have the Holy Spirit we have only the flesh that loves sin and hates righteousness. Find below anything in the flesh that would want anything to do with Christ.

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19–21)
 

BreadOfLife

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I used to believe Christ's atonement was for everyone. But didn't save anyone unless they met the conditions that triggered it in their behalf. So, in my case the condition was faith. So I trusted in my faith to trigger the atonement and make it work for me. I also believed if I stopped believing, I would perish.

Then I stumbled on Limited Atonement in taught in scripture. And everything changed. I realized that my faith was a result of Jesus paying for my sins on the cross. And had he not, I would not be able to believe. So I rejoiced seeing my faith as a gift God only gives to those for whom Christ died.

I stopped trying to lift myself over the fence by grabbing my ankles by conjuring up faith, and delighted knowing I could not doubt even if I somehow wanted to.

But I know, Jesus paid for the sins of all who want salvation through him, and persevere in it, but he didn't die for the many who do not want salvation by him. But love their sin more than God.
The false doctrine of Limited Atonement is a tradition of man - more specifically, John Calvin.
The Bible is CLEAR about the fact that Christ died for ALL:

1 Tim. 2:1-4

First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for EVERYONE, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills EVERYONE to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.


John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that EVERYONE who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.


Trust in the WORD of God - and don't be fooled by cheap imitations . . .
 

Enoch111

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Before we have the Holy Spirit we have only the flesh that loves sin and hates righteousness. Find below anything in the flesh that would want anything to do with Christ.
Once again, you are confusing Christians with unbelievers, and failing to acknowledge the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit to bring sinners to the Savior. I gave you the Scriptures, and you simply ignored them. So there is nothing more to say.
 
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Dave L

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Once again, you are confusing Christians with unbelievers, and failing to acknowledge the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit to bring sinners to the Savior. I gave you the Scriptures, and you simply ignored them. So there is nothing more to say.
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You must first be saved before you can believe. Faith tells you God saved you or you would not believe.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
The false doctrine of Limited Atonement is a tradition of man - more specifically, John Calvin.
The Bible is CLEAR about the fact that Christ died for ALL:

1 Tim. 2:1-4

First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for EVERYONE, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills EVERYONE to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.


John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that EVERYONE who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.


Trust in the WORD of God - and don't be fooled by cheap imitations . . .
Calvin did not teach limited Atonement. It is a bible doctrine that complies with salvation by grace. Universal atonement = salvation by works.
 

Nancy

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It is not a heavy burden at all, to spend time reading God's word in order to cultivate faith (Matthew 11:28-30, Romans 10:17, Hebrews 4:11).
Neither is it a burden to Love Him and love neighbor... :)
 

Nancy

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Is there not a big difference between "faith" and "faithfulness"?
Faith - Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for the conviction of things not seen."
Faithful - loyal, true, constant, trustworthy, reliable...
So...IMHO-FAITH is not a Fruit of the Spirit but FAITHFULNESS is.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Here's how it works. The gospel announces salvation to believers. Whosoever believes has eternal life. If you believe this, it is evidence God saved you.

But universal atonement does not save anyone, else all will be saved in the end. And we know this is not true. So in order to trigger such an atonement to work in your behalf, you must do or think something necessary to make it work. So you turn the simple gospel into law that rewards salvation thorough obedience. It's not only a false gospel but it makes you the savior and not Christ.
Totally backwards.
Christ doesn't say "you I'm going to save and force to have faith", and hence you have faith. And other people... well, just sucks to be them.

Rather, Christ offers His gift of faith for everyone, same with salvation. We each have a choice to accept Christ and be lifted by Him. Some accept, some decline. God loves the entire world and offers this gift to all. We each just choose whether or not to accept Him.